Most of the 2012 season Redbull had the fastest car, just not at the beginning, and if you ignored your boss at a normal job you would get fired, I call it stuck up not ballsy

edan oscar

suggest you rewatch the 2012 season again bud maybe somebody should have told webber he had the best car while everybody was blowing him off ,
red bull never had a competitive car until singapore and even then it was barely a match for the mclaren -- ,

what has being a formula driver and " normal job " got to do with anything -- the two are not remotely similar --

I think Red Bull are nothing without Adrian Newey?

Vettel is an excellent driver, but how much of a difference is he making to what has proved to be an extremely consistent and competitive package - that I cannot answer.

What I do know is that someone keeps on turning Webber's KERS off

welshy

cant help thinking if that package was so good webber would have done alot more with it these past 5 years as no driver has a talent bypass for 5 yrs -

the bottom line is red bull would not win jack shittt if vettel was not around and they relied on webber which makes me believe the red bull very rarely has had much of an advantage over the other competitive cars on the grid these past few yrs --

Hmmmm taking back my kers joke

Webber is not in the top notch of drivers imo. Probably would have won a title though had Vettel not existed at Red Bull.

IMO the car is consistently competitive whereas the likes of Ferrari and Mercedes are either right up there or nowhere.

I agree with you though that McLaren have thrown away at least one golden chance at a drivers title in the last 3 years.

Vettel is very consistent at getting the most out of a situation. Kinda like Alonso at Ferrari last season. Definately the mark of a quality driver.

I think Webber has been left as a number 2 driver for a couple of seasons tho. He has ability, and has shown on occasions that he can compete with Vettel. It is just a shame that on those occasions Vettel/Red Bull have shat on Webber's chips.

I seem to remember that up until Vettel's first Championship both Vettel and Webber were pretty much evenly matched. Then once Vettel took the championship - Webber was always up against it.

I think IMO kinda the same as with Hakkinen and Coulthard. Hakkinen like Vettel was always the favourite son (perhaps because they are better drivers or perhaps because the sun shines out of their arse) and Coulthard and Webber imo were never the same drivers again - it was almost like they weren't just up against the other teams - but their own teams too.

So my answer to your Q. is that no I do not think that Red Bull are nothing without Vettel.

However, Vettel is an extremely competent and talented driver who is only going to thrive when provided with an all round competitive and consistent piece of kit.

He's made the most of what he's been provided with. He's proved to be a ruthless and committed number one driver.

However, if it were not he at Red Bull, but Hamilton or Alonso would they have achieved similar - I think that is more than probable. Alonso I find similar to Vettel in terms of ruthlessness btw - for me tho Hamilton is the purest racer if you like.

welshy

hear what you are saying welshy , to be honest i think red bull have always tried to be fair with both drivers as they have always placed great value on the constructors championship and fair play to webber as he has beat vettel on occasion , in general that would not happen if webber was a no 2 ,

for me webber has always been one of the quicker drivers out there and no driver has a talent bypass just because they are partnered with a younger quicker talent ,
you are probably correct about alonso being able to do the same job at red bull , not sure about hamilton , still think he lacks the same in car intelligence as vettel or alonso to be able to dominate in the same way that vettel has these last few years --

Well, redbull are something without Vettel.

Just imagine how well they would have done if they had Ricciardo there! After all, you don't suddenly have a skill transplant and we've seen how he stacked up against Vettel this season

Good luck to Vettel at Ferrari (genuinely), he seems a nice guy and I wouldn't begrudge him repeating what his idol did.

Well, well, n6666789101112 my good ol bruvver I understand these new cars are so easy to drive which is why Ricciardo beat Vettel. If they were harder to drive Vettel would have beaten Ricciardo and the rest of the field.

That is my whim

I assumed as much MUDD, although who knows which is easier to drive out of the 2013 and 2014 Red Bulls

Who knows my dear ol bruvver. One of the cars has less downforce, more wheelspin, greater power delivery and far more complex systems.

Oh well

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 8 hours ago
Well, well, n6666789101112 my good ol bruvver I understand these new cars are so easy to drive which is why Ricciardo beat Vettel. If they were harder to drive Vettel would have beaten Ricciardo and the rest of the field.

That is my whim
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i wont reply with my usual subtle sarcasm manx in case you start blubbering again ---

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

So what has happened to Vettel this year? He's not just suddenly had a tallent bypass so what's what? Ricciardo only just beat Vergne and Vergne's just been dumped? Where's it all going.

Now, now wtccbuxyzabc

It is becase the new car is easy to drive. Seb only likes to drive hard cars. That is why the rookie beat him as the rookie is used to driving easy cars.

It is a similar advantage Hamilton had over Alonso in his first season which is why he beat him

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 11 hours, 51 minutes ago
So what has happened to Vettel this year? He's not just suddenly had a tallent bypass so what's what? Ricciardo only just beat Vergne and Vergne's just been dumped? Where's it all going.
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As you so rightly say nsix no 4 x WDC just suddenly willy nilly has a talent bypass in between the few months of his last title and new 2014 regulations , so logically there is a fundamental problem somewhere ,

from what i gather from the various little snippets i have read from newey and horner the main problem is the new electronic brake by wire systems that work with the renault power units that do not give vettel the absolute sensitivity and feedback that was fundamental to his unique style on the throttle and brakes on his previous cars that was such a big part of his dominance -

Of course the problem was compounded for vettel by the terrible reliability of his 2014 campaign ,
--------- it goes without saying if your braking technique is compromised there is normally a consequence to pay which would seem to have been a big contributory factor in his lack of confidence in the RB10 ---

An interesting theory, from what I've read it was the Ferrari powered teams that had the big issues with brake by wire. Was a interesting season all round for getting the opposite of what we expected. Hamilton swapped quali pace for racemanship with Rosberg, Ricciardo turned up out of nowhere and destroyed Vettel, Williams decided to build a good car.

The Mercedes dominance was a bit boring but at least it allowed many new stories to develop over the season.

I wonder how much Vettels change of team was down to not wanting to damage his image, after all Ricciardo looked a good bet for making it 2/2 next season.

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 47 minutes ago
An interesting theory, from what I've read it was the Ferrari powered teams that had the big issues with brake by wire. Was a interesting season all round for getting the opposite of what we expected. Hamilton swapped quali pace for racemanship with Rosberg, Ricciardo turned up out of nowhere and destroyed Vettel, Williams decided to build a good car.

The Mercedes dominance was a bit boring but at least it allowed many new stories to develop over the season.

I wonder how much Vettels change of team was down to not wanting to damage his image, after all Ricciardo looked a good bet for making it 2/2 next season.
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yeh --- must admit i was a little surprised that vettel left red bull , think newey"s departure and the renault engine had alot to do with it ,
from vettels point of view i would imagine if somebody of the influence of newey is no longer designing his cars and he is lumbered with a useless power unit for 2015 he has to look at his other options -

maybe ferrari moving into there hi tech design facility and strengthening there overall design and engineering staff for 2015 had a big influence into the logic of his move as well --

Come the end of the year the Renault looked to be the 2nd best engine, The Ferrari was horrifically clipping power at the end of all the straights. The fact that Alonso with DRS was getting retaken by a DRSless Caterham in Abu Dhabi showed the issue. They are often the slowest through the speed traps come the race.

Ferrari have been saying big words for seasons now and keep coming up short. Vettel must be playing the long game here as I can't see Ferrari fixing their issues for a while. Even Mercedes having bought all that talent took 3 or so seasons to become a challenger.

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 1 minute ago
Come the end of the year the Renault looked to be the 2nd best engine, The Ferrari was horrifically clipping power at the end of all the straights. The fact that Alonso with DRS was getting retaken by a DRSless Caterham in Abu Dhabi showed the issue. They are often the slowest through the speed traps come the race.

Ferrari have been saying big words for seasons now and keep coming up short. Vettel must be playing the long game here as I can't see Ferrari fixing their issues for a while. Even Mercedes having bought all that talent took 3 or so seasons to become a challenger.
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yeh the ferrari was pretty useless all season , would imagine there new all singing all dancing facility will address there aerodynamic issues to a large degree ,

not quite sure how the engine freeze will work for them , believe all the teams are allowed to do a certain amount of work on the power units over the winter but from ferrari and renaults point of view whether it will be enough to catch merc up is doubtful -

have a funny feeling that the combination of honda , mclaren , ex red bull aerodynamic hot shot peter prodromou and alonso could be the one fly in the ointment for all the merc teams -

I've seen different numbers floating around about how big the freeze is in real terms but it seems that the teams can change at least half the power unit for next season. Thats some pretty major changes all round.

Honda could surprise us all but they're going to be playing catch up. They only have one team to get data from and they'll be learning from scratch whilst the others are one year ahead.

Got a feeling (well it's pretty likely) that it'll be another Mercedes title next season. 2016 and the others should start to all equalise.

Will have to see how Rosberg takes this seasons loss (handled it very well so far) but a future battle of Ham, Vs Alonso, Vs Ricciardo, Vs Vettel in 4 teams would make for a heck of a season

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 46 minutes ago
I've seen different numbers floating around about how big the freeze is in real terms but it seems that the teams can change at least half the power unit for next season. Thats some pretty major changes all round.

Honda could surprise us all but they're going to be playing catch up. They only have one team to get data from and they'll be learning from scratch whilst the others are one year ahead.

Got a feeling (well it's pretty likely) that it'll be another Mercedes title next season. 2016 and the others should start to all equalise.

Will have to see how Rosberg takes this seasons loss (handled it very well so far) but a future battle of Ham, Vs Alonso, Vs Ricciardo, Vs Vettel in 4 teams would make for a heck of a season
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hope you are correct about the engine freeze regulations nsix , i believe the discussions are ongoing between the teams and the FIA as to what improvements can be made over the winter , understandably merc are keen to defend there advantage like a pit bull with a pork chop ,
dont think i could stand another season of watching rosberg and hamilton wafting off down the road every race unchallenged -

yeh i suppose honda being fully competitive and fully reliable by melbourne 2015 is the big unknown ,
on the plus side to that i would imagine that mclaren ( despite them probably saying otherwise ) would have drip fed honda as much in depth information on the merc donkey as was humanely possible with given the computer wizardry they have at there fingertips i would imagine was fairly substantial -

i gave up trying to predict who would be top dogs before any given season starts along time ago as my predicting abilities are akin to a chimpanzee showing etiquette at the dinner table ---

" i gave up trying to predict who would be top dogs before any given season starts along time ago as my predicting abilities are akin to a chimpanzee showing etiquette at the dinner table ".

I'll have you know, I've dated some very well mannered chimpanzees. I even proposed to three of them. They all refused, to a man.