Michael Schumacher
Ross Brawn
Jean Todt
Aldo Costa

I would say the loss of Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne and Michael Schumacher in a relatively short period of time has had a massive effect, even though Byrne has still been around in the background to make them an overriding

These three were the core of two successful teams, and maybe they worked particularly well together. Sometimes a good working relationship between a relatively small number of people, permeates through the rest of the team.

Your comment regarding Montezemolo is fair, but then again the same could be said about Ron Dennis at Mclaren. However their success dropped off when he took an enforced back seat after his disagreements with Max Moseley. So maybe that sort of attitude doesn't have a bad effect. Who knows though.

comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 1 hour, 10 minutes ago
Michael Schumacher
Ross Brawn
Jean Todt
Aldo Costa


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yeh that was a formidable team , all be it costa never really took over the design part of things until after 2007 , rory byrne was the real design guru behind just about all of schumachers wins at ferrari -

for me things changed drastically when schumacher was asked to step aside for kimi raikk for 07 which in hindsight was not the brightest thing that ferrari have ever done ,,
--- they also lost there bespoke tyre agreement with bridgestone and off course rory byrne but costa was a very good replacement -

knowing what we now know about the advantages of testing everything from a suspension strut to the tyres for me puts it into perspective as to how significant it was for ferrari to lose the ability to test on a there own track as and when they wanted -
---- i even heard tales of them testing into the night , not quite sure if that one is true but it would not surprise me knowing the incredibly high stakes involved -

comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 42 minutes ago
Your comment regarding Montezemolo is fair, but then again the same could be said about Ron Dennis at Mclaren. However their success dropped off when he took an enforced back seat after his disagreements with Max Moseley. So maybe that sort of attitude doesn't have a bad effect. Who knows though.
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must admit ron dennis comes across as similar in some respects and mclaren were caught napping with no DD for half of 09 -

--- for me RD biggest strength has always been to negotiate the best drivers and the best engines at that he would seem to have an almost intuitive sense of what is best for mclaren and employing them -
---- prost , senna , mika hakk , alonso , hamilton ,
--- honda for 5 years in late 80s --early 90s , -- mercedes for 15 yrs or whatever it is and next year probably a highly potent engine from honda again and the signing of peter prodromou from red bull will probably see RD and mclaren at the sharp end of the grid next year -

Didn't they have a test track on the roof?
But the testing ban has affected all the teams. It has however put more pressure on the design teams to get it more or less right first shot.
The effect of the ban is being noticed more this year with regard the new power units, in particular the Renault engine but probably Ferrari are also suffering.
This though is this season, and doesn't explain the last few years.
In that respect maybe, great driver though he may be, does Alonso give the same quality of feedback to the team maybe that Schumacher did?

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

Losing Ross Brawn was the biggest factor imo.

I would love to see him make a return to F1 with Williams, I suspect that he would come back refreshed and help them make that final step towards world championships again.

as for alonso i think he is better than schumacher was on just about every level ,
===========

Based on what evidence?

Schumacher goes to Ferrari, takes them from mediocrity to 5 time world champions.

Alonso goes to Ferrari and the team goes backwards. However, Alonso is better than Schumacher.

Can someone please explain this one to me as I am confused

I think Alonso is one of the best of the current bunch, what I would call a thinking driver, similar to Prost. But like Prost has a petulant streak. Can't deal with equal or better drivers in same team unless he gets #1 status within the team. Hence Prost / Senna and Alonso / Hamilton. He can put a mediocre car higher than it deserves, hence the good driver bit, but the car doesn't seem to be getting consistently better. Is this a sign that neither him or Kimi are giving good feedback.

Alonso is a quality driver, arguably the best on the grid at the moment but anyone who thinks he is better than Schumacher is having a laugh.

You may not like Schumi or his antics but his dedication to perfection, his technical acumen and ability to drive anything in any condition with nerves of steel is unmatched by any driver on the grid.

Alonso was fortunate to win the championships he did as Schumi was winding down his career.

Ferrari's downfall is linked to them loosing many of the benefits they used to have for being FOMs and FIAs favorite child.

Yes they still get by far the most money just for turning up but now others get some of money as well (still not equal mind).

Red Bull can now outspend them and in recent times McLaren got close. Mercedes have spent wisely to perform better but then some of the costs are hidden in the engine work (same for Ferrari mind).

They lost the use of their own test track through the testing restrictions. Ferrari used to test more between races than some teams could manage in a whole season.

Ferrari no longer get to specify their tyres.

In a modern world some of Ferrari's practices are backward.

Alonso is a outstanding driver but they have pampered to him to much when compared to the work Schumacher used to put in. Massa was turned into a dummy driver and Kimi just can't be bothered.

Ferrari have lost some of the ability to dictate the rules, no longer can they make the FIA ban things that Ferrari doesn't have whilst allowing Ferrari to flaunt racing rules and technical rules (flexing floors etc)



Ferrari need to move out of the past and accept that they have to compete with only a financial advantage. They still try to dictate the rules like nobodies bussiness but hopefully those times are passed. That said I see next year the cars have to have noses like the Ferrari's for reasons not entirely know hmmm (whats wrong with RBRs or the Mercedes or the Marussia. All nicer looking and just as safe?).

Ferrari need to move out of the past - short answer.

MUDD - i have to view your opinion on MS slightly differently. MS had an absolutely huge advantage over the rest of the teams so i believe he was always able to fight if he had a setback, thus giving the opportunity to show skill. I do think alonso would have a similiar level of skill, if given the opportunity to showcase it.

YOu may be right that MS is better, however i feel its difficult to say with absolute certainty thats all.

However your bang on about his character traits, nerves of steel etc. A proper winner

As for Ferraris downfall - hmmmm im not so sure, you do have a point, however, i think this needs to be looked at.

2008 - Very fine margins
After this i believe that everybody looked average due to red bulls dominance.

But for me they have been 3rd in the supposed top 4 teams in terms of there performances, and when you consider Red bull where glued to number 1, mercedes are glued there now, perhaps its just a cyclical thing and ferrari could be back sooner rather than later. They certainly need to

comment by BWFCCLEGG (U7583)
======

He had advantages, agreed but look at where Ferrari were before he joined and see where he took them.

People also forget the input he must have given to the Mercedes team as well.

On a separate though controversial note, is Alonso perhaps the problem?

He has had a lot of input to their cars and considering his preference for subservient team mates and everything being about him, has he maybe led Ferrari down a path of no return? is that why they wanted an experienced driver like Kimi to give them alternate feedback?

So many questions!

comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 12 hours, 48 minutes ago
Schumacher goes to Ferrari, takes them from mediocrity to 5 time world champions.

Alonso goes to Ferrari and the team goes backwards. However, Alonso is better than Schumacher.

Can someone please explain this one to me as I am confused
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dont think it is quite as simplistic as that manx , in reality schumacher built nothing , jean todt bought micheal from benettone to ferrari and in short order did the same with the brains from benettone in ross brawn and the top designer from benettone rory byrne so effectively todt saw the benefit of using the massive ferrari shilling in bringing the nucleus of the brilliant benettone team and paying them to work for ferrari -

the rest is history as they say - they also saw the benefit in making ferrari a one man team and putting all there efforts behind micheal as they manufactured all his titles for him -

dont get me wrong micheal was a very good driver but all his titles were very much handed on a plate to him with the manufactured advantages that ferrari gave him and fair play to micheal he didnt let them down , mind you in reality it would have been hard for him to lose the WDCs he won with the advantages he had -

as for alonso i just believe has shown a level of ability and intelligence with the uncompetitive machinery that he has had for so many years that would have been beyond michael -
-------------- just my opinion manx --

comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 13 hours, 1 minute ago
I think Alonso is one of the best of the current bunch, what I would call a thinking driver, similar to Prost. But like Prost has a petulant streak. Can't deal with equal or better drivers in same team unless he gets #1 status within the team. Hence Prost / Senna and Alonso / Hamilton. He can put a mediocre car higher than it deserves, hence the good driver bit, but the car doesn't seem to be getting consistently better. Is this a sign that neither him or Kimi are giving good feedback.
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what are you saying go cell , 2 world champions with 26 yrs formula 1 seasons between them are not capable of relaying on track information to the engineers -
---- in reality alonso and kimi raikk form the most experienced driver combination out there so i doubt if intelligent driver feed back is the issue with ferrari -

from what i gather the main issue is the size of the actual turbo chargers they use on there engines believe they are considering changing to a different manufacturer to give them more power --

MA, "from what i gather the main issue is the size of the actual turbo chargers they use on there engines believe they are considering changing to a different manufacturer to give them more power "
That may account for this year's lack of performance, but what about the last few seasons? Why has their in season development been lagging behind RBR, Mercedes and to a lesser extent Mclaren.

And maybe MUDD is right, maybe it is Alonso himself who is the problem. Maybe not from a technical ability point of view, but maybe he just doesn't gel with the team principal, designers or engineers etc. Sometimes personalities play a big part, a case of face not fitting.
Who knows what goes on behind closed doo6e3

closed doo6e3? How the hell did that happen? I meant closed doors obviously, but it was almost like I was speaking tongues!

Amazing you have those views about Schumacher but not Vettel, martial.

You have described Vettel to a tee, not Schumacher. Your comment indicates you know very little about the man and the way he revolutionised Ferrari.

Martial, check this out from wiki, a source you are very familiar with;

Schumacher is a seven-time Formula One (F1) World Champion and is widely regarded as one of the greatest F1 drivers of all time.

He was named Laureus World Sportsman of the Year twice. He holds many of Formula One's driver records, including most championships, race victories, fastest laps, pole positions and most races won in a single season – 13 in 2004 (the last of these records was equalled by fellow German Sebastian Vettel nine years later). In 2002, he became the only driver in Formula One history to finish in the top three in every race of a season and then also broke the record for most consecutive podium finishes. According to the official Formula One website, he is "statistically the greatest driver the sport has ever seen".

After beginning with karting, Schumacher won the German drivers' championships in Formula König and Formula Three before joining Mercedes in the World Sportscar Championship. After one Mercedes-funded race for the Jordan Formula One team, Schumacher signed as a driver for the Benetton Formula One team in 1991. After winning consecutive championships with Benetton in 1994/5, Schumacher moved to Ferrari in 1996 and won another five consecutive drivers' titles with them from 2000 to 2004. Schumacher retired from Formula One driving in 2006 staying with Ferrari as an advisor.[7] Schumacher agreed to return for Ferrari part-way through 2009, as cover for the badly injured Felipe Massa, but was prevented by a neck injury. Schumacher returned to Formula One on a permanent basis from 2010 with the Mercedes team before retiring for a second time at the conclusion of the 2012 season

When Schumacher was four, his father modified his pedal kart by adding a small motorcycle engine. When Schumacher crashed it into a lamp post in Kerpen, his parents took him to the karting track at Kerpen-Horrem, where he became the youngest member of the karting club.

His father soon built him a kart from discarded parts and at the age of six Schumacher won his first club championship. To support his son's racing, Rolf Schumacher took on a second job renting and repairing karts, while his wife worked at the track's canteen. Nevertheless, when Michael needed a new engine costing 800 DM, his parents were unable to afford it; he was able to continue racing with support from local businessmen.

Regulations in Germany require a driver to be at least 14 years old to obtain a kart license. To get around this, Schumacher obtained a license in Luxembourg at the age of 12.


In 1983, he obtained his German license, a year after he won the German Junior Kart Championship. From 1984 on, Schumacher won many German and European kart championships. He joined Eurokart dealer Adolf Neubert in 1985 and by 1987 he was the German and European kart champion, then he quit school and began working as a mechanic. In 1988 he made his first step into single-seat car racing by participating in the German Formula Ford and Formula König series, winning the latter.

In 1989, Schumacher signed with Willi Weber's WTS Formula Three team. Funded by Weber, he competed in the German Formula 3 series, winning the title in 1990. He also won the Macau Grand Prix. At the end of 1990, along with his Formula 3 rivals Heinz-Harald Frentzen and Karl Wendlinger, he joined the Mercedes junior racing programme in the World Sports-Prototype Championship. This was unusual for a young driver: most of Schumacher's contemporaries would compete in Formula 3000 on the way to Formula One. However, Weber advised Schumacher that being exposed to professional press conferences and driving powerful cars in long distance races would help his career.

In the 1990 World Sportscar Championship season, Schumacher won the season finale at the Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez in a Sauber–Mercedes C11, and finished fifth in the drivers' championship despite only driving in 3 of the 9 races. He continued with the team in the 1991 World Sportscar Championship season, winning again at the final race of the season at Autopolis in Japan with a Sauber–Mercedes-Benz C291, leading to a ninth place finish in the drivers championship. He also competed at Le Mans during that season, finishing 5th in a car shared with Karl Wendlinger and Fritz Kreutzpointner. In 1991, he competed in one race in the Japanese Formula 3000 Championship, finishing second.

Schumacher was noted throughout his career for his ability to produce fast laps at crucial moments in a race, to push his car to the very limit for sustained periods.

Motor sport author Christopher Hilton observed in 2003 that "A measure of a driver's capabilities is his performance in wet races, because the most delicate car control and sensitivity are needed", and noted that like other great drivers, Schumacher's record in wet conditions shows very few mistakes: up to the end of the 2003 season,

Schumacher won 17 of the 30 races in wet conditions he contested. Some of Schumacher's best performances occurred in such conditions, earning him the nicknames "Regenkönig" (rain king) or "Regenmeister" (rain master), even in the non-German-language media. He is known as "the Red Baron", because of his red Ferrari and in reference to the German Manfred von Richthofen, the famous flying ace of World War I. Schumacher's nicknames include "Schumi", "Schuey"and "Schu".

Schumacher is often credited with popularising Formula One in Germany, where it was formerly considered a fringe sport.[23] When Schumacher retired in 2006, three of the top ten drivers were German, more than any other nationality and more than have ever been present in Formula One history.

Younger German drivers, such as Sebastian Vettel, felt Schumacher was key in their becoming Formula One drivers.[24] In the latter part of his Formula One career, and as one of the senior drivers, Schumacher was the president of the Grand Prix Drivers' Association.[25]

In a 2006 FIA survey, Michael Schumacher was voted the most popular driver of the season among Formula One fans