It is unbelievable what this guy has done with Arsenal and the fact that some of your fans wanted him sacked in October, just shows how little respect fans have for him. To think that, the club are on a budget in the transfer market and consistently getting into the Champions League is amazing. For me he is the seconds best manager ever and who knows what he would have done if he had the sort of resources available to Chelsea or Man City. Over the years players like Fabregas, Henry, Nasri and Clichy left to search for money/success. Therefore, I don't blame him for the lack of trophies over the years, as getting to the latter stages of Champions League is achievement in itself. And it's a real shame that you are now considered in the same bracket as Tottenham, simply because some of your players turned out to be mercenaries.
posted on 11/4/12
How does finishing fourth when our net spend including wages is around that make Wenger a genius?
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our wage bill is 5th and our net spend is 20th Any business, especially football clubs, need investment to maintain their position let alone improve. So maintaining a Champions League quality team while selling our best player and making a profit every year makes him a genius
posted on 11/4/12
8bit
Yes Arsenal were under pressure but I don’t think anywhere near the pressure City have been under. I don’t support either team –I’m speaking as a neutral, that’s how I see it.
I personally think Arsenal should have finished in the top 4 in previous seasons, this season I don’t think the team is the same and finishing in the top 4 will be an incredible achievement.
“And what happens off the pitch directly effects what happens on it.”
I quite agree – hence the point about media pressure. You have taken money into account when making allowances for Wenger not winning a trophy – but have not considered other factors which other teams could claim to be of importance.
“If suddenly, Wenger didn't have to sell his best players because we could offer higher wages, and he was given £300m to spend, do you not think it would be slightly easier to build a team like City have done?”
Fabregas didn’t leave because of money did he? I think he left because Barca are his boyhood team and he’s always dreamt of playing for them… when a player feels like that he might take a pay cut to join them, let alone money! And as for someone like Nasri – yes money could have been a factor, but equally I think he looked at the respective teams and thought City was a better place to be and had more chance of winning things. I don’t think it was just about money- I think it was about the breakup of the side and the seeming unwillingness to invest in players which most people agreed were badly needed.
I feel a bit sorry for Nasri in some ways actually… when Arsenal signed him it was a step up in his career and a chance to progress… when he feels he is taking another step up he is heavily criticized by people. I’m sure he got a pay increase when he joined Arsenal! Also Rooney complains about United and says he wants to leave – but many people give him the benefit of the doubt and, in my opinion, naively believe that was about ambition rather than money. But that’s another conversation entirely!
“It's quite logical, it's not rocket science. If Fergie had to sell Rooney and other best players because they couldn't pay them the wages they wanted, and couldn't have bought all the £20m/£30m players they have, do you not think their team would decrease in quality?”
I think United’s side has decreased in quality over the past few years. The players that have remained are older, Giggs Scholes etc and so are able to do less – and some of the younger players are not up to the standard set by their predecessors. Is Valencia as good as Ronaldo? No. So there is a massive drop in quality straight away. I think if Rooney left United the strength in depth at United is greater so they would not be as affected.
I understand the point you are making about money – but money can be misspent. (Rangers bought Flo for £12 million… ouch)
Newcastle have spent a heck of a lot of money and it hasn’t got them any trophies!
So money doesn’t guarantee success – that is the point I’m making. I don’t think Mancini gets the credit he deserves from a lot of rival fans who just point at the money, whereas Wenger is given the benefit of the doubt by many in spite of not winning anything in years.
Yes selling players and keeping the club going is difficult… but I think there are far better examples than Arsenal – West Ham – if they had kept all their players the team would have been unbelievable! I think it is easier for Wenger to keep players too because of the champions league carrot.
I’m not criticizing Arsene so please don’t think I am – I just think the same standards should be applied to all managers when they are judged.
posted on 11/4/12
If the wage bill is 5th... would you not expect him to be at least 5th every year?
So finishing in the top 4 isn't that great an achievement since it could be only 1 place better than it "should" be. Add in the Champions League carrot to entice players it means that actually the wages could be lower than another club but you'd still expect a higher calibre of player at Arsenal, surely?
posted on 11/4/12
Yeah, our wage bill is 5th so technically that's where we 'should' be. But wages is also a running cost and will always be there, our rivals invest fresh money every year on transfers whereas Wenger's required to make a profit.
You said Nasri left for both money and a better squad, which I agree with. But how did City get in that position? By spending half a billion and offering 200k a week wages to their players. Our record signing is £15m... Chelsea, City, United have bought maybe 10, 15 players each for more than that.
All I'm saying is, if Wenger had the same spending power as those clubs then without a doubt we'd be right up there challenging at the very top year in year out and would have won trophies.
posted on 11/4/12
“Yeah, our wage bill is 5th so technically that's where we 'should' be. But wages is also a running cost and will always be there, our rivals invest fresh money every year on transfers whereas Wenger's required to make a profit.”
Sounds a bit like you are changing the goalposts again to be honest.
“You said Nasri left for both money and a better squad, which I agree with. But how did City get in that position? By spending half a billion and offering 200k a week wages to their players. Our record signing is £15m... Chelsea, City, United have bought maybe 10, 15 players each for more than that.”
City have had to spend big because they couldn’t offer Champions League football before this season – so anyone signing would have been signing just for the money, or to be a part of the big new project.
Remember signing fees can be misleading as well – one of your best signings was Sol – how much was he?
The players don’t get the signing on fee it is the selling club, if there is one.
Agree to a point about the wages – but again you are looking at it from you competing with the big 4. Look outside the big 4 and how do your wages and fees compare? Birmingham have won a trophy – yet their wages and singing on fees are less than yours. Does that mean Big Ec is a better manager than Wenger?
“All I'm saying is, if Wenger had the same spending power as those clubs then without a doubt we'd be right up there challenging at the very top year in year out and would have won trophies.”
Again – I think Arsneal had money to spend but he is reluctant to use it.
posted on 11/4/12
All I'm saying is, if Wenger had the same spending power as those clubs then without a doubt we'd be right up there challenging at the very top year in year out and would have won trophies.
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If were using hypothetical situations we could just as easily been up there and challenging every season if Wenger had been a lot better with money he did have to spend.
posted on 11/4/12
it's not really hypothetical, you'd have to be pretty deluded to think we wouldn't have done better if we had kept all our best players and had a couple of hundred million extra to spend. I like how you pick and choose which comments you reply to though
fact is, if Wenger's one of the most respected people in football and if he left Arsenal tommorow, the world's top clubs would be queueing up for him.
posted on 11/4/12
it's not really hypothetical, you'd have to be pretty deluded to think we wouldn't have done better if we had kept all our best players and had a couple of hundred
million extra to spend
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Yeah there's high probability we would of done better having more money to spend but that doesn't mean it guaranteed. I'd rather focus on the mistakes he did make than the ones he could of. If its all down to money why didn't we win the Carling Cup last season?
I like how you pick and choose which comments you reply to though.
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I responded to your conclusion but OK.
Yeah, our wage bill is 5th so technically that's where we 'should' be. But wages is also a running cost and will always be there, our rivals invest fresh money every year on transfers whereas Wenger's required to make a profit.
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According to AST its fourth but even it was fifth finishing one place above your expectations is hardly the work of a 'genius'.
You said Nasri left for both money and a better squad, which I agree with. But how did City get in that position? By spending half a billion and offering 200k a week wages to their players. Our record signing is £15m... Chelsea, City, United have bought maybe 10, 15 players each for more than that.
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The same City we made extremely poor by just by wanted it more. How much do Swansea spend in comparison to all the teams they've beat and outplayed this season. Obviously I'm not saying money doesn't make difference, it does it makes a big difference but it isn't the be all and end all.
fact is, if Wenger's one of the most respected people in football and if he left Arsenal tommorow, the world's top clubs would be queueing up for him.
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Respected doesn't make him good, all the world's top clubs are welcome to although I'm not convinced they'd want him.
posted on 11/4/12
Yeah we bottled the Carling Cup, it was gutting. But shocks can happen in football, still can't really make excuses we should have won.
Our wage bill is 4th/5th, but wages is one thing investment is another. Every year our rivals are spending big money on transfers but Wenger has to do the opposite, sell players, buy cheaper ones and make a profit. And whether you agree with it or not, that's incredibly difficult.
Swansea have done great but this is just one season, if they do it year after year it will be a great achievement. But there's a level they won't be able to go above as well, simply because they won't have the money.
It's like Villa, they had a strong team at one point but if you don't have the spending power then you can't keep your players and you're back to square one.
And Abramovic, the City owners all wanted Wenger as no.1 choice when they took over. Madrid have tried for Wenger plenty of times. They see what he does with Arsenal on a fraction of the budget and know he would win things without a doubt with the backing they have.
posted on 12/4/12
I am with Godleebarnes on this one. If it is all about money then the wages Arsenal pay are 5th so you should be in at least 5th place. Getting one place higher is not proof of him being genius.
“Our wage bill is 4th/5th, but wages is one thing investment is another. Every year our rivals are spending big money on transfers but Wenger has to do the opposite, sell players, buy cheaper ones and make a profit. And whether you agree with it or not, that's incredibly difficult.”
I’m not a fan so maybe I am wrong, but my understanding is that Wenger isn’t on a leash when it comes to the transfer market – and he could make big purchases if he wants to, he just doesn’t want to because he would prefer to get value for money. Maybe he knows if he spends a lot of money the pressure would be on him much more – so by saving money he is lowering expectations.
Again though you have compared Arsenal to the big four – let’s compare him to managers outside that group. How well does he do compared to other managers? David Moyes for example is on a much tighter budget than Wenger – does his work at Everton make him more of a genius? How many genii will we end up in the league?
“Swansea have done great but this is just one season, if they do it year after year it will be a great achievement. But there's a level they won't be able to go above as well, simply because they won't have the money.”
Let’s see – many people said the same about Stoke but they safe from relegation again, what about Fulham? They have hardly spent massively… and of course – Everton. These clubs have won the same amount as Wenger in the last few years. What about Pardew at Newcastle – he had to sell his top striker last season – and his playmaker in Barton… they are doing well though.
“And Abramovic, the City owners all wanted Wenger as no.1 choice when they took over. Madrid have tried for Wenger plenty of times. They see what he does with Arsenal on a fraction of the budget and know he would win things without a doubt with the backing they have.”
Madrid also wanted Rafa – does that mean Rafa is now a genius? Look at Pardew at Newcastle – he wasn’t a popular choice or overly respected but he is having success.
Yes Wenger is respected – but is that because of his success on the pitch or because he isn’t seen to waste money? Had he not had the undefeated side how much respect would he have? I think his reputation has actually kept him free from a lot of criticism which was due to him… if he were judged fairly, he would be judged a lot more harshly.