I read a comment on another article earlier, which is consistent with a view I've seen expressed on these pages for some time now, so I'd like to discuss it further, because it makes me wonder if everyone has a similar perception of the key issue with our central midfield and whether there is more than one. This would certainly explain why the targets people say they'd like to see don't always match the problems they highlight, or why they suggest player A (e.g. Sneijder), and then offer player B (e.g. Martinez) as an alternative, when the two players are like chalk and cheese.
"If we add a top quality central midfielder to Kagawa, we'll make many more chances than we were able to last year."
In my opinion our main problem last season wasn't creating chances. We created much and scored many, almost as many (89) as a supposedly rampant City side (92) in the Premier League. Scoring against the stronger sides wasn't generally a problem either.
For example we scored 3 against City in the Charity Shield and 2 in the FA Cup, 3 against Spurs (home and away), and 3 against Chelsea at home. We scored 8 against Arsenal at home, followed by 2 away. Even the poor results against the big teams show we scored in them all, with the exception of the final City game, when we set up and played very defensively. Most would argue anyway that we didn't lose the title in that City game, we lost it in games like Everton at home despite still managing to rack up 4.
In the Champions League we scored a lot of goals as well, in fact no-one scored more than us in the group. Only 3 teams scored more than us from any group!
Our key problem was people could move through our central midfield like a hot knife through butter, to either score directly, or score indirectly by exposing the full backs who often didn't track back properly. Exactly why the central midfield and full back should be the main focus.
The key games that saw us end trophy-less imo indeed included that home Everton match in the Premiership, and the Wigan game that saw this lowly side regularly cut us open. The Old Trafford matches against Benfica and Basle when we let in 3 and 2 respectively ended the Champions League. The Europa league finished with games against Bilbao when we conceded another handful of goals home and away. I'll try not to mention the home match against Crystal Palace to wrap this up...D'oh!
Given all this I thought it would interesting to ask if SAF had a peak Roy Keane clone available tomorrow, or he could instead get a peak Scholes clone, which would you like to see? However, this may not quite illustrate the exact point I'm trying to make, given Scholes at his best was actually quite combative, as well as legendary. More representative options would perhaps be Yaya Toure or a deep lying Wesley Sneijder? Maybe even better representations would be Tiote or Cabaye?
Don't for one second think I don't believe we need to have the type of player in the squad who dictates tempo, or keeps the ball moving, or adds more creativity from the middle of the park in terms of key passes, as I've said for a while I'd ideally like to see two new high class CMs arrive, one of which should have many of those skills. I'm just saying here that given our current squad assets, the primary attribute we are missing most appears to be someone who adds a more dominating presence to the central midfield. A player who can break up the opposition play, help protect the back four and yet also drive the team forward as Roy Keane could at his best, as Toure does now for City, and Tiote does for Newcastle.
So which way would you go for as a priority, and your choice doesn't mean you don't believe the other isn't needed in due course as well? For example I'd love to see Martinez and Modric in the perfect world, or perhaps Strootman and Sahin in a less perfect, cheaper world, but maybe the former players of each pair should be the higher priority of the two. Alternatively perhaps you are aware of the perfect specimen that does everything!?
Is The Key CM Issue Black, White or Grey?
posted on 11/7/12
Pea – to be honest and without sounding pessimistic I don’t think you could shove (one of) a Keane or a Scholes in their prime into our current team and see us wipe the board winning trophy after trophy. Whilst we still have a very good overall squad our starting 11 for me is nowhere near as strong (or consistent) as teams of the past. I suppose to a degree we were spoilt with players of the quality and desire of Keane, Neville, Scholes Beckham, Butt etc all coming through at the same time but we also developed Ronaldo, Giggs, Evra and Vidic into top players.
It actually hurts my head racking my brain trying to think of a viable midfielder we could realistically sign (and afford) I am certain SAF and his scouts have been searching high and low for this individual and part (but not all of the reason) we have not signed that person so far is they haven’t found exactly what they wanted. There’s still another 2 months or so till the window closes so I remain confident
posted on 11/7/12
I also agree with what Berbaking is saying – although I feel this may be down to the overall age of the team and perhaps slightly less hunger? It must be hard to keep players motivated season in and season out to play at their optimum every game – combine this with the increased quality, intensity plus better tactics employed by opposition teams and managers means that there will often be upsets and bad performances. I think some fresh blood, a slight tweak to our tactics and losing our title to city may see a better ethic next season
posted on 11/7/12
I have a feeling SAF is going to move away from 4-4-2 this season.
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Yes, please.
posted on 11/7/12
Oh I totally agree aquantum re dropping a Scholes or Keane clone into our central midfield wouldnt suddenly see us wipe the board with trophies, so I dont think you're being pessimistic in saying that. However there are plenty of options available to SAF that would strengthen that area of the pitch, and to move us forward significantly to compete with the really elite world clubs then I'd personally suggest we are going to need two high class CMs sooner rather than later, even if only one comes this window. I guess this is why I'm asking which type would be the priority if we were going to leave the second one until for example next summer, and for this we'd need to agree what is our main need/issue.
As Scholes is still around, and we have players like Cleverley at the start of their career, even Anderson while he's still at the club, then as much as I'd like the Scholes type player now, maybe we can wait more for that than we can for a Keane/Essien/Toure/Vieira type. That's of course also assuming the ideal two would be a mixture like Scholes & Keane or Martinez and Modric or Strootman and Sahin etc etc.
If Carrick was injured, out of form or unavailable then do we have many quality alternatives? If Carrick is fit and we all agree it's a given he's one of our current best CMs to start every big game, then is he the right man going forward from now for us to challenge successfully at the really elite level of club football i.e. v Madrid, Barca, Bayern etc etc? Just a question for debates sake.
If we did use a formation like 4-2-3-1 as well then Carrick would be good imo as one of the two, and the player I suggested above as someone who could be an alternative to Carrick when we are playing a 4-4-1-1- could play alongside him in the 4-2-3-1.
Anyway this is all just for discussion's sake, with a fair chunk of playing devils advocate, as the type SAF is trying to get seems pretty clear.
posted on 11/7/12
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
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I can see where your coming from. We can't play 433 because we just don't have the players to play that way, most importantly, it takes away Utd's strength, playin through the wings. When teams cut of our wingers, that's when we also seem to struggle, very rarely do I see us create chances through the middle, whether that's SAF tactics or the midfielder inability to split open defences, I don't know, I'm thinking the latter.
Whenever SAF has played 451, although defensively see seem sound, offensively we are toothless. There is never a proper balance and ourstyle of play is pretty boring aswell with the 451 setup. It all points to the midfield unfortunately, which is why we are all wondering...why hadn't SAF strengthened it. I Aldo think its time to move in with the so called 'modern formation' (4231, 433 etc etc) just not 442.
I don't think we will ever win the CL playing 442 unfortunately (unless we get the Chelsea luck of last year) because majority of the teams will always play with an extra midfielder and will always outrun us.
posted on 12/7/12
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 20 hours, 11 minutes ago
Obviously, physical prowess is useful. The perfect midfielder has class on the ball and athleticism. A few years ago Essien was the archetype. I don't want a magician with the ball at his feet who is also a wuss - or has no legs (e.g. Riquelme). But that's not to say that slight players without lightning pace must be at a disadvantage.
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Very harsh on Riquelme. At his peak, he was probably the best pure playmaker in the world. The Riquelme i knew was no wuss, he was rarely bossed off the ball.
Granted, he didnt do much defensive work but he was a magician who rarely, if ever lost the ball.
I concur though that a pure brute is not needed. Personally i am for a regista, one who has a bit of both. I dont think there is anything new i or anyone here has to say that hasnt been said already on the midfield problem.
Other than, 'When will SAF sort this mess out'?
posted on 12/7/12
RC
I was using Riquelme to exemplify 'no legs' rather than 'a wuss' and I was thinking of the slow, ageing player rather than him in his prime. I'm a big admirer of him but I think it's fair to say that for all his continuing quality on the ball, his immobility drastically reduces his effectiveness.
posted on 12/7/12
Perhaps RR but it is not as cut and dry. Let's not forget SAF tried to sign Riquelme.
I admit that his snail-paced style would probably be alien to the pell-mell style of the premier league but all we can do is guess
posted on 12/7/12
RC, when was that though? I'm not saying he hasn't been a superb player, including as recently as his Villareal stint. I'd have loved a Riquelme in his prime at United. All I'm talking about is the mid-30s Riquelme who is well past his physical peak and attracting criticism at Boca Juniors for being too slow. My post was an argument in favour of footballing talent over brawn, and I was just qualifying that by saying there is a point at which inability to compete physically renders even the most sublimely talented footballer ineffective. Riquelme was the example that sprung to mind, as one of the most gifted players of his generation and unfortunately not anywhere near as effective as he once was.
posted on 12/7/12
Ok, RR. I wasn't looking to spar, i actually like your posts.
We are often in tandem - most of the time. A prime Riquelme would be a welcome addition for sure.