Jurgen or Ronnie?

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I think Ronnie is a tory, I heard that he votes for the Norwegian tory party?

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It's both. Being a spectator sport you want entertained and the means good quality football and you don't get that by training the kids with the win at all cost mentality

Nautix

Its like shankly said if folk want entertainment they should go to the pictures.

Football is about winning

The point of my op is that Klopp is a winner whilst Ronnie is ultimately a loser and because of this he is trying to redefine success!

This argument blurs the lines between what football is

Is it a sport?
Is it played for entertainment?

For me, its the former.

Football, primarily, is a sport, and in any sport, you applaud those who do certain things, play their sport in certain ways, and entertain while competing.

But ultimately, people play to win, if it was just to entertain, why do teams play for trophies, play in leagues......why not just play friendlies all the time and "entertain"

People are remembered for entertaiing while trying to win things...no-one remembers some overhead kick a guy pulled off in a friendly, but if he did it in a world cup game, different story.

So even though the Cryuff team gets remembered despite the fact tehy never won the world cup, they got the victories and played teh football that got them to the final, and had they not got to the final, or at least made some sort of decent progress in the tournament. they would not be remembered much either.

So Jurgen is right, its a results business, and that is primarily what those in the game should be judged on before anything else.

I hark back to Falkirk being applauded for the quality of football they played in the SPL.....tehy won fck all and were forgotten about.

Dortmund won Bundesliga titles and reached the Champions League Final under Klopp.....his brand of football was applauded because it was nice to watch AND he got those results with it.

No-one would be applauding him if Dormund did fck all while playing that great to watch football.

Ronnie needs to understand this

Stevie summed up my thoughts on it pretty much.

Especially at the highest level with bigger clubs you're judged on what you win.

Fans want to be entertained yes. But playing lovely football and regularly failing to win is simply unacceptable for clubs with large supports. Example of Barcelona in 2003 ish fans and / or the board quickly lose patience and demand change if wins don't follow. Rijkaard turned it round thanks to the record stretch of results bought him time. Tommy Burns at Celtic wasn't so fortunate.

If you can win and be entertaining it's absolutely perfect, but if it's either then it's winning that's most important.

There certainly needs to be a balance between the two, I absolutely hated going to watch Strachan's teams or Lennon's in his last year, the football was so pedestrian like and hit the big man and get the knock on's.

The football I've watched at times over the past 2 years has been the most entertaining for a good few years but at the end of the day if you don't win anything then it's for nothing, luckily we have and were a very poor refereeing decision away from a potential treble last year.

Fine margins

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Only when they get something terribly wrong