Lionel Messi

xiuxiuejar.....the la liga thread

come over and post sometime !

bloodyblu4cfc.com (U1442)

You're clearly the one whose commenting with bias because you're never directly answering any of my points (while others have done and some are vaild, especially xiuxiuejar's comment). Yr responses are just generic statements mixed with questioning my intelligence.

The headed goal against United in 09 ..... congratulations, he scored completely unmarked and placed it in the corner, i'd expect nothing less from the world's best. I don't watch a ton of la liga, but i watch enough to know Messi doesn't get a look in with set-pieces ..... now about his dribbling. Read this carefully ..... there's a BIG difference between running past 6 defenders and being able to do it when they're on you like a rash. I remember watching a game Barcelona had last season (think it was against Espanyol but i might be wrong), where he had almost three players marking him. The result - he didn't have a shot or meaningful pass in the game. Now yes, almost anyone wouldn't be able to deal with that, but this is the BEST we're supposedly talking about. Now how about the two matches against Inter last year where they didn't even man mark him, just defended well. I counted one shot in 180 minutes of football in that tie???

And this is the underlining point you really appear to be missing. I do think Messi is a special player, you don't become the CL's leading goal scorer for two straight seasons and not be a wonderful player. But in my opinion, and believe me i'm more than aware i'm almost alone with it, to earn the right to be called best player in the world (and certainly best player ever), you need to prove yourself to be the complete player, and part of that means playing to yr best in all environments ..... Messi has overcome la liga (a league where defending is an after thought), and the CL!!! That's not enough, sorry. If he starts turning it on regularly for Argentina, that's a start. But if he went to Serie A or the PL and performed even slightly below the level he's playing at now before his career's over. That's perfection. Then i'll haul him as the best.

comment by HHHBF (U6522)
posted 6 minutes ago

I don't watch a ton of la liga, but i watch enough to know Messi doesn't get a look in with set-pieces ..... now about his dribbling. Read this carefully ..... there's a BIG difference between running past 6 defenders and being able to do it when they're on you like a rash. I remember watching a game Barcelona had last season (think it was against Espanyol but i might be wrong), where he had almost three players marking him.
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Messi scored 2 goals against Real Madrid last season. Also Messi has scored 4 goals against Arsenal and has scored 2 goals against Manchester United in his career. Messi can do it against the big teams as well not just the small teams unlike Cristiano Ronaldo.

Messi goals against Arsenal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5OnlL5Bkqs

Messi goals against Arsenal 2010-11; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27Xri-yKZrs

Messi goal vs Manchester United; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeWblviGsuU

Messi goal vs Manchester United 2011 UCL Final ( skip to 2 minutes in video)

Now how about the two matches against Inter last year where they didn't even man mark him, just defended well. I counted one shot in 180 minutes of football in that tie???
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That's weird, 'cos ESPN stats credit him with 5 shots over the 2 legs, 4 of them on goal:

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/45843/lionel-messi?cc=5739

It's funny though, how so many people will point to specific games to detract from Messi's ability. Since when does being the best in any given period or being the best ever mean you have to perform in every big game during your career?

FYI, my favourite player ever is Maradona (getting on a bit, but still too young to have have any meaningful recollection of Pele, Distéfano, Cruyff etc.) - and not even Maradona would perform in every single big game.

Messi's easily the best player around right now, and at the age of 23 is already up there among the top 10 or so players in the past couple of decades imo. Now let's see exactly how much he can build on such a great start.

How can anyone say C.Ronaldo is more complete? To start with, complete players come with a brain, even if it's just a footballing brain.

How can anyone say C.Ronaldo is more complete? To start with, complete players come with a brain, even if it's just a footballing brain.

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He's proven himself in the PL (the most competitive league in the world) aswell as La Liga and the CL. That's how. Btw, are you implying suggesting C. Ronaldo doesn't have a footballing brain???

*implying or suggesting*, didn't mean to type both lol

I am indeed. Exaggerating the point to drive it home, but he definitely isn't in the same league as virtually all of the other players considered among the recent 'greats'.

His overriding mental feature is his selfishness, and while that drives him on beyond what most players are willing or able to give, it's often detrimental to the team on the whole.

You only need watch him.

The amount of poor decisions he makes game after game is unworthy of a top footballer, and too often their driven by his thirst to satisfy his own ego.

He has an uncanny awareness for turning up unmarked in dangerous areas, that's undeniable, but his shot selection is terribly poor and his decision of when to play the ball to a better-placed teammate and when to try to go it alone is appalling. The further a game drags on without him scoring, the worse it gets. It's no coincidence that this season he's needed to take 100 more shots on goal than Messi in order to get a similar number on target and score the same amount of goals.

People often refer to the power of his shot moving him to take more long range shots, which are harder to score - but in open play this season Messi's scored more than double the goals Ronaldo has from outside the box: 7 to 3. That hardly endorses his trying from 35 yards out when Benzema's breaking into acres of space to his left and Özil on his right. Lack of vision or blind selfishness? I don't know, probably the later, but either way it's very poor for a player of his calibre.

There are many things that make CR a good player, but they're mostly restricted to the realm of his physical attrributes - his football intelligence isn't one of them.

There are two ways you can spin that. C. Ronaldo when it's all said n done is out for C. Ronaldo, that's obvious. But the man isn't a mug on the pitch, if he had no footballing brain he'd be making the wrong runs, picking the wrong passes when he did distribute, which he doesn't do. Going by what you were saying, Drogba would also lack awareness on the pitch, which is far from the truth.

Messi by contrast clearly has a better understanding of team responsability (he'd have been shipped out by Pep immediately if he didn't, guarantee it), but tying into the original point that i refuse to call Messi the world's best player at this point, Messi has only geled into a team that have largely been brought up together since childhood and his only example to date of stepping away from that comfort zone (Argentina's national team) he's yet to convince. And the irony is, if he was a lil more selfish when playing with Argentina he'd probably have more luck with them. That's all i'm saying, until he proves himself beyond the brillance that is Barcelona, i can't see him as the best there is. But he's young, plenty of time for that to change

Regarding his runs, I agree, as I implied with my comment on his ability to turn up unmarked in goalscoring positions. Regarding his pass and shot selection, we'll just have to agree to disagree, as in my eyes it's one of the single-most annoying aspects of his game.

Regarding Messi, I understand where you're coming from, but couldn't you say the same of Pelé at club level? Where would that leave all-time favourites like George Best?

Was Pelé simply fortunate enough to play on some outrageously good Brazil sides, and otherwise a good but not great player? He's before my time, but I think it's a bit of an outrageous suggestion.

Does Messi really look like he doesn't have the capacity or game to adapt elsewhere? I very honestly don't think so. Other than not being about a foot taller, he's got just about anything you'd ask from a player - vision, dribbling, shooting (long and close range) intelligence, hard work, etc. etc. I don't see any reason he wouldn't be a success elsewhere.

Anyway, how would you rate the Copa America - is it a good enough tournament for him to make his mark in? It doesn't normally get that much coverage in Europe, but a good tournament it is.

If so, and if he isn't too knackered, he might have won a few more sceptics over by the end of summer.

(He was actually brilliant in 07, when still 19, but lack of attention in Europe and the fact Argentina suffered a heavy defeat to Brazil in the final meant his role there jhas been largely forgotten.)

The World Cup and similar events are rare in a player's career - some might play three, few play an important role in more than that - and a lot of your success there relies on events beyond your control. Would Argentina been so heavily and clearly defeated by Germany with a competent manager on the bench? Maybe, we'll never know, but Messi's 1st failed attempt at World Cup glory was hardly through any shortcomings of his own. Hasn't Cristiano also failed pretty badly at two World Cups?

So, you're telling me the sole difference and reason for which you consider C.Ronaldo a better/greater footballer is because he's succeeded in two different leagues?

Sorry, but I just don't buy it.

It's not quite as cut and dry as 'Ronaldo's succeeded in two leagues'. Messi's abit of a special case in my head for alot of reasons.

I'll say right now that i'm 20 y/o, so i can't comment on Pele or Best because i never saw them play. This is totally my opinion, but in my eyes La Liga is NOT the league where you become a superstar, it's simply not competitive enough especially in the last couple of years, it's where you go to celebrate your rise to the top of your profession and to enjoy your existance .... so in that respect i'd still have held Ronaldo in higher regard even if he hadn't joined Real.

Alot of my doubting of Messi centres around the team he's playing for, Barcelona is a club where their are either no superstars or 11 depending on how you see it, so that club's centrepiece has a good chance of being overhyped somewhat. Now i've seen him in alot of CL games, a few la liga games, and what i see is one of the world's special players playing in a team and a system that he fits into brilliantly. But you take that system and club away, and what you're left with is just an extremely talented player (i like to think of him as a quicker Zola) ..... but this is about the BEST in the world, n there's more than one player out there who has velcro feet and an eye for goal.

Yes the copa america is a big enough tournament for me, any prolonged spell with Argentina where he plays close to the level he does for Barcelona (friendlies or competitive matches) and i'll start to become convinced.