I have noticed that we seem to have always had a bit of a "Jose Out" cult amongst our supporters yet when you look at things logically it is very difficult to understand why apart from:
1. an emotional reaction to Poch being replaced (which was totally unjust in my opinion, we should have backed him)
2. a dislike of the man from previous engagements.
The fact is that we were in decline from January 2019, where we fluked not only getting to the Champions League Final, but also qualifying for it through top 4. Poch knew this and wanted to rebuild but Levy didn't want to and decided to pull the trigger. Jose entered the club and same issues have persisted culminating in the last week. Last Thursday was an awful result and performance, but before that the reaction to the Arsenal loss was a bit over the top to my liking and shows that there are fans out there that are secretly hoping for Jose to fail which is quite bizarre.
The fact is that we need a rebuild. Jose has signed a few players on the cheap and only 2 of the new signings have really worked out with only Hojbjerg and Regulion making a mark. Regulion wasn't even planned which is scary when you think about it.
Personally I am backing the manager and think that he is the right person for the rebuild. I would like to give him 3/4 more signings this summer and a chance to get rid of some of the more toxic players but that is my opinion.
What I would like to know is given the facts, what is the rational position to get rid of Jose? Please remove the emotions from your response. Look at our current situation and squad rationally and articulate your position.
The "Jose out" Cult and our Overreaction
posted on 22/3/21
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 17 minutes ago
I found it embarrassing for ourselves the way Leicester convincingly beat United in a big cup tie in the later rounds yesterday. All this past decade while we've been a mostly top 4 team we always folded in the later rounds to opposition like that.
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Catalogue of failure for years by managers, players in any big semi or final. Jot just down to Jose. Poch teams were as flakey as feck, when it came to the biggies.
posted on 22/3/21
comment by LukaBrasi #RentFree Patience - We never forget (U22178)
posted 4 minutes ago
Telling quote from Jose yday via Ali G
Talk us through your team selection today?
My thinking was we need angry people, we need fresh and positive feelings. We need kids on the bench that live a dream, kids that if you play them 10 seconds, they play them like the last seconds of their career. I need people on the pitch that I know the match is really important for them. Tanganga and Rodon are these kind of players.
This kind of positivity is something that the team needed. I think it was good. The two best defenders on our team were Harry Kane and Vinicius. In the first half they didn't have a shot. In the second half of course there is always a corner, always a shot, always a second ball but when you start defending with your two strikers, the team is solid and in control. So we had lots of positive things.
And of course I understand, they deserve this individual praise. Crazy performance by Lucas, Harry, Pierre – we had some fantastic individual performances but for me this is the victory of the dressing room, the victory of their spirit, the victory of the group that felt ashamed of what happened in the last week.
To be ashamed I always think is a man's reaction. Don't care, don't give a (swears) is not for men. To be ashamed is a man's reaction which they had and I'm very happy for them.
How can you make sure that that reaction that reaction you provoke, can continue?
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. That’s the challenge, for me and for the group. That’s the challenge. I told already your colleagues from TV, I told exactly that.
That’s the next challenge. We are going to lose matches, we are going to play bad, we are going to have not very good performances. But this state of mind, this emotional approach, this team spirit, this sacrifice.
A guy coming from the bench like Sissoko to play eight minutes, and to give it all in this eight minutes. This kind of situation is the next challenge for myself as a coach. But I think is more of a challenge for them. For them as a group. END.
Between now and the end of the season the 'rats' won't hopefully unless we have major injuries and the players who want to fight will.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Players don't develop bad attitudes overnight. 2-3 years ago those same players would run through brick walls for Poch. If a large portion of the squad have lost faith in Jose, that's going to show on the pitch. I don't think they have anyway.
This is how I see it. I think the overriding issue is fear...
Jose is so obsessed with defensive responsibilities that I think it's making the team play with fear. Don't move out of position, don't bravely run through the lines, don't forget your defensive responsibilities. Those marauding runs we used to see from the likes of Vertonghen have gone because if you lose the ball out of position, Jose will scream at you, drop you or make your life hell. That has bred a safe way of playing. Let the opposition have the ball so that we can keep a solid shape. The bravery we once had has been replaced by fear. It's so clear to me and no win away at Villa is going to change that.
The players that don't know any other way to play other than being brave (Alli, Bale etc) are in and out of the side.
posted on 22/3/21
comment by sandy, Jose In (U20567)
posted 54 seconds ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 17 minutes ago
I found it embarrassing for ourselves the way Leicester convincingly beat United in a big cup tie in the later rounds yesterday. All this past decade while we've been a mostly top 4 team we always folded in the later rounds to opposition like that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Catalogue of failure for years by managers, players in any big semi or final. Jot just down to Jose. Poch teams were as flakey as feck, when it came to the biggies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And it wouldn't be because we just faced better opposition the nearer you get to winning it. I suppose you'll just conveniently forget that only 2 years ago we knocked out Dortmund, City and Ajax on the way to a final against, at the time, one of the best teams in the world?
posted on 22/3/21
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 0 seconds ago
comment by sandy, Jose In (U20567)
posted 54 seconds ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 17 minutes ago
I found it embarrassing for ourselves the way Leicester convincingly beat United in a big cup tie in the later rounds yesterday. All this past decade while we've been a mostly top 4 team we always folded in the later rounds to opposition like that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Catalogue of failure for years by managers, players in any big semi or final. Jot just down to Jose. Poch teams were as flakey as feck, when it came to the biggies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And it wouldn't be because we just faced better opposition the nearer you get to winning it. I suppose you'll just conveniently forget that only 2 years ago we knocked out Dortmund, City and Ajax on the way to a final against, at the time, one of the best teams in the world?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now we go out to teams like Zagreb. You call that progress?
posted on 22/3/21
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by LukaBrasi #RentFree Patience - We never forget (U22178)
posted 4 minutes ago
Telling quote from Jose yday via Ali G
Talk us through your team selection today?
My thinking was we need angry people, we need fresh and positive feelings. We need kids on the bench that live a dream, kids that if you play them 10 seconds, they play them like the last seconds of their career. I need people on the pitch that I know the match is really important for them. Tanganga and Rodon are these kind of players.
This kind of positivity is something that the team needed. I think it was good. The two best defenders on our team were Harry Kane and Vinicius. In the first half they didn't have a shot. In the second half of course there is always a corner, always a shot, always a second ball but when you start defending with your two strikers, the team is solid and in control. So we had lots of positive things.
And of course I understand, they deserve this individual praise. Crazy performance by Lucas, Harry, Pierre – we had some fantastic individual performances but for me this is the victory of the dressing room, the victory of their spirit, the victory of the group that felt ashamed of what happened in the last week.
To be ashamed I always think is a man's reaction. Don't care, don't give a (swears) is not for men. To be ashamed is a man's reaction which they had and I'm very happy for them.
How can you make sure that that reaction that reaction you provoke, can continue?
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. That’s the challenge, for me and for the group. That’s the challenge. I told already your colleagues from TV, I told exactly that.
That’s the next challenge. We are going to lose matches, we are going to play bad, we are going to have not very good performances. But this state of mind, this emotional approach, this team spirit, this sacrifice.
A guy coming from the bench like Sissoko to play eight minutes, and to give it all in this eight minutes. This kind of situation is the next challenge for myself as a coach. But I think is more of a challenge for them. For them as a group. END.
Between now and the end of the season the 'rats' won't hopefully unless we have major injuries and the players who want to fight will.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Players don't develop bad attitudes overnight. 2-3 years ago those same players would run through brick walls for Poch. If a large portion of the squad have lost faith in Jose, that's going to show on the pitch. I don't think they have anyway.
This is how I see it. I think the overriding issue is fear...
Jose is so obsessed with defensive responsibilities that I think it's making the team play with fear. Don't move out of position, don't bravely run through the lines, don't forget your defensive responsibilities. Those marauding runs we used to see from the likes of Vertonghen have gone because if you lose the ball out of position, Jose will scream at you, drop you or make your life hell. That has bred a safe way of playing. Let the opposition have the ball so that we can keep a solid shape. The bravery we once had has been replaced by fear. It's so clear to me and no win away at Villa is going to change that.
The players that don't know any other way to play other than being brave (Alli, Bale etc) are in and out of the side.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
His fear comes from our defenders who he knows are not good enough and have costs us mistakes which have lead to goals. Dier, Davies, Doherty and Aurier all didn't play yday. Hugo is lucky he has a poor back up. He is cottoning on.
posted on 22/3/21
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 0 seconds ago
comment by sandy, Jose In (U20567)
posted 54 seconds ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 17 minutes ago
I found it embarrassing for ourselves the way Leicester convincingly beat United in a big cup tie in the later rounds yesterday. All this past decade while we've been a mostly top 4 team we always folded in the later rounds to opposition like that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Catalogue of failure for years by managers, players in any big semi or final. Jot just down to Jose. Poch teams were as flakey as feck, when it came to the biggies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And it wouldn't be because we just faced better opposition the nearer you get to winning it. I suppose you'll just conveniently forget that only 2 years ago we knocked out Dortmund, City and Ajax on the way to a final against, at the time, one of the best teams in the world?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now we go out to teams like Zagreb. You call that progress?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So what is the way forward to actually turn any 'progress' we make going forwards into something tangible, like other teams seem to be able to do?
What would a good next 2-3 years look like for the club?
We could stick with Jose, finish anywhere between 4th and 7th, have some blow ups like this past week and a couple of league cup/FA Cup trophies (or not).
We could try and get Naglesmann (no guarantee he'd come) or someone like Hassenhuttl, get some young players in and finish 4th or 3rd, do well in the CL group stages before getting knocked out by the first big team with experience we face.
We could do any combination of any of those things - what I'm asking is, how do we best make progress from where we are in your opinion?
posted on 22/3/21
If we're not going to spend the sort of money that Liverpool had to to win the league, how do we expect to come close to winning the league?
posted on 22/3/21
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 1 minute ago
If we're not going to spend the sort of money that Liverpool had to to win the league, how do we expect to come close to winning the league?
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By investing the money off the field so that we can have the structure and finances to replicate and compete with Liverpool et al.
posted on 22/3/21
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 0 seconds ago
comment by sandy, Jose In (U20567)
posted 54 seconds ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 17 minutes ago
I found it embarrassing for ourselves the way Leicester convincingly beat United in a big cup tie in the later rounds yesterday. All this past decade while we've been a mostly top 4 team we always folded in the later rounds to opposition like that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Catalogue of failure for years by managers, players in any big semi or final. Jot just down to Jose. Poch teams were as flakey as feck, when it came to the biggies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And it wouldn't be because we just faced better opposition the nearer you get to winning it. I suppose you'll just conveniently forget that only 2 years ago we knocked out Dortmund, City and Ajax on the way to a final against, at the time, one of the best teams in the world?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now we go out to teams like Zagreb. You call that progress?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So what is the way forward to actually turn any 'progress' we make going forwards into something tangible, like other teams seem to be able to do?
What would a good next 2-3 years look like for the club?
We could stick with Jose, finish anywhere between 4th and 7th, have some blow ups like this past week and a couple of league cup/FA Cup trophies (or not).
We could try and get Naglesmann (no guarantee he'd come) or someone like Hassenhuttl, get some young players in and finish 4th or 3rd, do well in the CL group stages before getting knocked out by the first big team with experience we face.
We could do any combination of any of those things - what I'm asking is, how do we best make progress from where we are in your opinion?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good teams win trophies. It's as simple as that. Whilst Poch didn't get a trophy, one thing you have to ask yourself - would any of his teams beat Jose's? I honestly believe if Jose's team were to face any of Poch's, especially around 2016/17, you'd be looking at an utter blood bath. I think Jose's team would get schooled.
Progress would be just that. More competitive in the league, progressing further in cups. Everyone's forgetting that the CL final wasn't the only final Poch got to. Yes, we fell at the final hurdle but it happens. We faced top teams. It's not easy.
I think you seem to believe that getting a manager in like Nagelsmann or Hassenhuttl means giving up on trophies and concentrating on developing players and becoming a better team. That's nonsense. Becoming a better team gives you a greater chance of winning a trophy. Mourinho is not a magician. He's just managed sides expected to win things, so they did. Our run to the League Cup Final under him had everything to do with the luck of the draw and a fortunate scrape past Chelsea, our only tough opponents.
In short, a progressive manager doesn't mean giving up on trophies, it means getting closer to them. The only difference is that maybe, just maybe Poch sometimes played an understrength team in the domestic cups but that's hardly a surprise. At the time we were challenging for the title and the CL. How quickly things can change.
posted on 22/3/21
We beat Man city in the CL quarter final thats beats beating Man U in the FA cup quarter final.