Really interesting video from the consistently excellent Tifo channel exploring Ten Hag's application of 'minimum width' - stationing wingers more or less in line with the edges of the penalty area as opposed to the touchline. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9HsgutuVPo
The analysis suggests it's a twist on Pep's 'maximum width', stretching the defending line as much necessary to create gaps between defenders, rather than as much as possible as Guardiola has tended to. The benefit when we're in possession is that wide forwards are closer to goal if the ball is switched to them after an overload on the other flank. There's the same tactical benefits in the case of a counter attack, and in winning the ball back if an attack breaks down.
These are the kinds of nuances that I would never spot when watching the game myself. I highly recommend Tifo videos if you're interested in digging deeper into how the game works.
Minimum width
posted on 6/4/23
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 6 minutes ago
I’d argue it’s more down to the players he’s got at his disposal, I don’t think it’s a system he’d actually like to play
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But this seems to have always been the case. And that he doesn’t just have tactical flexibility, that he values it.
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That’s true of any decent coach really though albeit in a tighter framework, I meant more the system he’s used a few times I’ve seen you play has been more a compensating mechanism rather than one that completely suits certain individuals - it’s why I think at times you’ve overachieved in comparison of results to performances (which is impressive in itself)
Next years going to be the interesting one as there is a trade off of doing that approach. Your recruitment this summer is going to be really interesting.
posted on 6/4/23
Yeah but I’m talking specifically with regard to the use of the wingers out of possession. Because it’s changed throughout the season, and does in games.
I agree about compensating. That is massively to do with the keeper and the lack of personnel to defend against counters.
I think he’ll be making certain tradeoffs the whole time he’s here because it seems to just be how he coaches. There’s going to be principles he really wants to always implement, but everything I’ve read and seen suggests he’s much more pragmatic than many expect - especially because he’s Dutch and was influenced by Pep.
posted on 6/4/23
comment by WeekendOffender (U22920)
posted 5 hours, 31 minutes ago
comment by Cloggy (U1250)
posted 1 hour, 46 minutes ago
Thought this was an article on 'size does matter'
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That's because you can't read for the purpose of comprehension.
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Rattled
posted on 6/4/23
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 24 minutes ago
Yeah but I’m talking specifically with regard to the use of the wingers out of possession. Because it’s changed throughout the season, and does in games.
I agree about compensating. That is massively to do with the keeper and the lack of personnel to defend against counters.
I think he’ll be making certain tradeoffs the whole time he’s here because it seems to just be how he coaches. There’s going to be principles he really wants to always implement, but everything I’ve read and seen suggests he’s much more pragmatic than many expect - especially because he’s Dutch and was influenced by Pep.
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Right and his use of the wingers has depended on who he’s had in midfield and fullbacks as well as the transitions, that’s what I mean about the compensating and why I said the biggest issue you’ve had over the last ten years has been the recruitment and complimentary players. For a coach like him, it must be equally infuriating and motivating as a challenge!
I think most of them are more pragmatic than some realise at times, it does still depend entirely on the players available. Difference with Pep with us is more the squad already had the foundations when he signed so he could spend the first season working with specific players on the future state and get consistent patterns for them properly embedded.
I’m just really interested to see who you get (and who you get rid of) this summer.
posted on 6/4/23
melts, ah yeah I think we are agreeing with each other here. Agree with all that.
I think Pep’s kind of ruined perceptions of what coaches should be, and how others view them. He’s obviously brilliant, but he’s usually had the players with the right technical, mental and physical attributes that are needed of top teams that the coaching of the tactical side takes less work.
I’m still not that impressed with our recruitment, even though things have changed at the top. Remains to be seen what new ownership does.
I’d be surprised if we move radically away from a team that thrives on transitions for as long as Rashford is scoring at the rate he is. Good recruitment could see us become a really strong side, because I think ETH has the right tools as a manager to help shape us into a multifaceted team.
posted on 6/4/23
Peps an anomaly and people do need to remember that - I agree he’s had that but there’s also players that no one else would see the same attributes in as he does, getting the centurion season with Delph as a left back will always stick out for me but there’s been a few others too that I don’t think would have been anywhere near as highly regarded if he didn’t coach them. His control of everything does make people think every coach is like that though.
Completely agree with your points too though, and I still don’t think you’re getting the recruitment right either. The interesting thing with that is considering how well it works when he’s on form, do you build the team and future state around Rashford?
posted on 7/4/23
Yeah I agree with that. The thing that annoyed me the most is when you played Silva and KDB centrally, and everyone just assumes everyone else should do it.
That’s a difficult question to answer regarding Rashford. I’m not sure that necessarily has to be the case, whilst still looking to have a team that can thrive in transition. I suspect it’s something ETH values in his teams anyway from what I saw of Ajax, even if they didn’t have a player like Rashford. Plus I think he’s aware of its value in the premier league. Didn’t he mention something along the lines of the athleticism of the prem referencing Pep’s first season, and that once he fixed that they never looked back?
posted on 7/4/23
Wannabe managers over analysing football is almost as bad as just calling player X rubbish or player Y 5hite.
posted on 7/4/23
comment by Cloggy (U1250)
posted 11 hours, 7 minutes ago
comment by WeekendOffender (U22920)
posted 5 hours, 31 minutes ago
comment by Cloggy (U1250)
posted 1 hour, 46 minutes ago
Thought this was an article on 'size does matter'
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That's because you can't read for the purpose of comprehension.
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Rattled
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Fuming
posted on 7/4/23
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 13 hours, 26 minutes ago
Yeah I agree with that. The thing that annoyed me the most is when you played Silva and KDB centrally, and everyone just assumes everyone else should do it.
That’s a difficult question to answer regarding Rashford. I’m not sure that necessarily has to be the case, whilst still looking to have a team that can thrive in transition. I suspect it’s something ETH values in his teams anyway from what I saw of Ajax, even if they didn’t have a player like Rashford. Plus I think he’s aware of its value in the premier league. Didn’t he mention something along the lines of the athleticism of the prem referencing Pep’s first season, and that once he fixed that they never looked back?
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Ah yeah that one is a much better example! Was all about the fullbacks for us and athleticism absolutely, think Walker has to be up there with the best signing we’ve made under Pep. That and doing that change with Silva and De Bruyne.