I've done a couple of posts on wingers, admittedly probably three or four years ago.
I love a good winger, the perfect one in my eyes was John Connelly who we signed from Burnley before you were born.
He had a simple method, he would beat his fullback, look up and decide what cross to hit, and hit it.
If the signs were good he would cut inside and score.
None of that is tongue in cheek. He was great. Sadly he only played for us fot two seasons, then Bolton offered him more money.
Not we have Garnacho, Rashy, Pellistri, and fecking Antony.
None of them can do what Connelly did, he wasn't coached to do that, it's what wingers should do.
Apart from Garnacho, and Rashy being smacked around the head, get rid and get somebody who can. And if Rashy doesn't get it, get rid.
I think only me and VC remember Arnold Muhren, but he should be studied. He came well after Connelly so there will be more film of him.
Wingers are so important, they make and score goals. They make the pitch wide. If they consistently beat the full back it pulls other players out from the centre. A cross from the byline is going away from the goalie and defenders, and towards the head and feet of the attackers.
Let's get at least one who can do that please.
Wingers ffs.
posted on 29/1/24
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 1 hour, 14 minutes ago
Next time Antony starts (which will probably be Thursday) count how many times he raises his hand in acknowledgement that he made the wrong decision.
I will bet it is over a dozen which tells the story right there.
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I've noticed this as well. He's a perpetual nearly man; he 'nearly' gets the killer pass right, 'nearly' gets a curling shot inside the far post, 'nearly' gets a cross into a good area...
He's just not good enough.
posted on 29/1/24
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 hours, 57 minutes ago
We're all liable to overstate things.
Do Rashford and Garnacho always look to cut in and shoot? Actually, they only cut in and attempt to shoot a handful of times per game, and in the course of a game they will also attempt to go round the outside of the full back and either attempt a cross or a cut back. If you look at Footystats.org. you'll find this season Rashford has had 1.8 shots per 90 minutes, 1.78 crosses per 90 (and 1.02 key passes, which I guess includes cut-backs). Last season, incidentally, shots taken were 2.52 and both crosses and key passes were lower. So in terms of the 'Rashford is selfish and needs to cross more' accusation, it looks like he's trying to do what you want him to do more this season. But I'd suspect most of us are more satisfied with how he played last season.
Antony this season is crossing much more than last: nearly four per ninety minutes as opposed to 1.66 in 2022-23. Unfortunately, the number of successful crosses per 90 is the same: so he's showing willing to be more selfless in crossing twice as often, but he's also crossing twice as badly.
As for the idea that none of our team is good a crossing other than Luke Shaw, the same source tells us that Shaw is attempting 3.24 crosses per 90 minutes and 0.91 are successful. So the gold standard crosser is contributing about one and a half more crosses per game than the player we're most dissatisfied with. Incidentally, Dalot's figures this season are very similar to Shaw's: slightly fewer crosses, slightly higher success rate.
Finally, now we have a big centre forward, we need to feed him with lots of crosses, right? If you take a look at all the goals Hojlund has scored throughout his young career, there are about three headers, and none since before his move to Atalanta. Of course, headers aren't the only way to convert crosses. But let's not buy into the idea that he's a prolific scorer of goals coming from aerial balls.
This is all quite a small data sample to draw categorical conclusions about players - but then, it's an equally small sample when we draw conclusions based on our observation and our attitudes to players fluctuate according to their recent effectiveness. Things often aren't as black-and-white as they seem, and of course everything seems wrong when players are collectively disjointed and individually not quite firing.
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I know you're not arguing that these stats tell the whole picture, and maybe what I'm about to say is covered by stats that you hadn't posted, but the number of shots per game versus the number of times a player tries to work a position for a shot (and fails to get one away) when a better option is available seems the more important stat to consider. I don't think these things are typically recorded however, and this is the eye test I think Rashford and Garnacho quite often fail in.
Hojlund has very natural knack for double and triple movements when trying to get across a defender or find half a yard of space to attack things in the six-yard box. It's something that's very hard to teach; Rashford, Martial and Greenwood (as three players that have played at CF to varying amounts in recent seasons) don't have that knack - they don't throw themselves at things in those areas or get those "scruffy" goals (as Ole called them). Hojlund does have that "scruffy goal" instinct in him, but that no good is we're not fizzing balls across the six yard box for him to attack.
For all of football's tactical and technical advancements, sometimes you do just have to put the ball into a dangerous area and play the percentages in certain moments, especially when you have a player who gambles on those moments again and again.
posted on 29/1/24
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 53 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 hours, 57 minutes ago
We're all liable to overstate things.
Do Rashford and Garnacho always look to cut in and shoot? Actually, they only cut in and attempt to shoot a handful of times per game, and in the course of a game they will also attempt to go round the outside of the full back and either attempt a cross or a cut back. If you look at Footystats.org. you'll find this season Rashford has had 1.8 shots per 90 minutes, 1.78 crosses per 90 (and 1.02 key passes, which I guess includes cut-backs). Last season, incidentally, shots taken were 2.52 and both crosses and key passes were lower. So in terms of the 'Rashford is selfish and needs to cross more' accusation, it looks like he's trying to do what you want him to do more this season. But I'd suspect most of us are more satisfied with how he played last season.
Antony this season is crossing much more than last: nearly four per ninety minutes as opposed to 1.66 in 2022-23. Unfortunately, the number of successful crosses per 90 is the same: so he's showing willing to be more selfless in crossing twice as often, but he's also crossing twice as badly.
As for the idea that none of our team is good a crossing other than Luke Shaw, the same source tells us that Shaw is attempting 3.24 crosses per 90 minutes and 0.91 are successful. So the gold standard crosser is contributing about one and a half more crosses per game than the player we're most dissatisfied with. Incidentally, Dalot's figures this season are very similar to Shaw's: slightly fewer crosses, slightly higher success rate.
Finally, now we have a big centre forward, we need to feed him with lots of crosses, right? If you take a look at all the goals Hojlund has scored throughout his young career, there are about three headers, and none since before his move to Atalanta. Of course, headers aren't the only way to convert crosses. But let's not buy into the idea that he's a prolific scorer of goals coming from aerial balls.
This is all quite a small data sample to draw categorical conclusions about players - but then, it's an equally small sample when we draw conclusions based on our observation and our attitudes to players fluctuate according to their recent effectiveness. Things often aren't as black-and-white as they seem, and of course everything seems wrong when players are collectively disjointed and individually not quite firing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know you're not arguing that these stats tell the whole picture, and maybe what I'm about to say is covered by stats that you hadn't posted, but the number of shots per game versus the number of times a player tries to work a position for a shot (and fails to get one away) when a better option is available seems the more important stat to consider. I don't think these things are typically recorded however, and this is the eye test I think Rashford and Garnacho quite often fail in.
Hojlund has very natural knack for double and triple movements when trying to get across a defender or find half a yard of space to attack things in the six-yard box. It's something that's very hard to teach; Rashford, Martial and Greenwood (as three players that have played at CF to varying amounts in recent seasons) don't have that knack - they don't throw themselves at things in those areas or get those "scruffy" goals (as Ole called them). Hojlund does have that "scruffy goal" instinct in him, but that no good is we're not fizzing balls across the six yard box for him to attack.
For all of football's tactical and technical advancements, sometimes you do just have to put the ball into a dangerous area and play the percentages in certain moments, especially when you have a player who gambles on those moments again and again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed Berba.
posted on 29/1/24
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 2 hours, 10 minutes ago
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 1 hour, 14 minutes ago
Next time Antony starts (which will probably be Thursday) count how many times he raises his hand in acknowledgement that he made the wrong decision.
I will bet it is over a dozen which tells the story right there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've noticed this as well. He's a perpetual nearly man; he 'nearly' gets the killer pass right, 'nearly' gets a curling shot inside the far post, 'nearly' gets a cross into a good area...
He's just not good enough.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anton Wenger.
posted on 29/1/24
You'd think given how much our wide players have struggled this season Garnacho aside to some extent we'd look for another avenue to goal as opposed to constantly looking for a fast switch to a poor/out of form and/or inconsistent winger and relying on them to produce something from a one on one situation.
There doesn't seem to be much thought behind a tactic that lacks sophistication and there doesn't seem to be much intent to do anything else like play through the middle of the pitch, using wide play to attract the opposition and stretch a defence and play short combination passes to open up teams.
Our approach is just so basic and one dimensional and it's so far from how a top team plays or any team aspiring to be one and if it continues I fully expect Ten Hag to be shown the door at the end of the season because what we're seeing isn't acceptable anymore from an aesthetic, tactical or results POV.
posted on 29/1/24
Berbaking, agree with everything you wrote there. Only thing I'd add to
"I know you're not arguing that these stats tell the whole picture, and maybe what I'm about to say is covered by stats that you hadn't posted, but the number of shots per game versus the number of times a player tries to work a position for a shot (and fails to get one away) when a better option is available seems the more important stat to consider."
...is that the stats also won't record the number of times a player made the decision to try to cross but failed to make it. My original point was in part defending the likes of Rashford against the (in my mind) exaggerated view of his motivation, that he's always only interested in shooting, not feeding. He's certainly greedy on occasions, but I think failing to spot or execute the kinds of opportunities you've described is just as important. I also think it's one of those issues that gets magnified in a team where everything is a bit out of joint, where uncertainty and stress are hovering over everyone. In those circumstances players will snatch at shots and passes more frequently than they would when the team is playing coherently, and they'll be more likely to make the choose the wrong option in those situations where they have a microsecond to decide.
posted on 29/1/24
short combination passes to open up teams.
———
We’re actually pretty good at this. Problem is that it opens our own defence up when we lose it on the edge of the area and the opposition is through on goal within seconds.
posted on 29/1/24
We’re actually pretty good at this.
----------------------------------------------------
We just don't see us attempting those short exchanges that often.
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Problem is that it opens our own defence up when we lose it on the edge of the area and the opposition is through on goal within seconds.
---------------------------------------------
Which then just highlights how poor we are still out of possession.
If we were an animal we'd have been put down with the number of issues we have.
posted on 29/1/24
We don’t do often because they aren’t very good at short passing or taking care of the ball. The issue is compounded by how easily we get countered.
posted on 29/1/24
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 3 hours, 49 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 hours, 57 minutes ago
We're all liable to overstate things.
Do Rashford and Garnacho always look to cut in and shoot? Actually, they only cut in and attempt to shoot a handful of times per game, and in the course of a game they will also attempt to go round the outside of the full back and either attempt a cross or a cut back. If you look at Footystats.org. you'll find this season Rashford has had 1.8 shots per 90 minutes, 1.78 crosses per 90 (and 1.02 key passes, which I guess includes cut-backs). Last season, incidentally, shots taken were 2.52 and both crosses and key passes were lower. So in terms of the 'Rashford is selfish and needs to cross more' accusation, it looks like he's trying to do what you want him to do more this season. But I'd suspect most of us are more satisfied with how he played last season.
Antony this season is crossing much more than last: nearly four per ninety minutes as opposed to 1.66 in 2022-23. Unfortunately, the number of successful crosses per 90 is the same: so he's showing willing to be more selfless in crossing twice as often, but he's also crossing twice as badly.
As for the idea that none of our team is good a crossing other than Luke Shaw, the same source tells us that Shaw is attempting 3.24 crosses per 90 minutes and 0.91 are successful. So the gold standard crosser is contributing about one and a half more crosses per game than the player we're most dissatisfied with. Incidentally, Dalot's figures this season are very similar to Shaw's: slightly fewer crosses, slightly higher success rate.
Finally, now we have a big centre forward, we need to feed him with lots of crosses, right? If you take a look at all the goals Hojlund has scored throughout his young career, there are about three headers, and none since before his move to Atalanta. Of course, headers aren't the only way to convert crosses. But let's not buy into the idea that he's a prolific scorer of goals coming from aerial balls.
This is all quite a small data sample to draw categorical conclusions about players - but then, it's an equally small sample when we draw conclusions based on our observation and our attitudes to players fluctuate according to their recent effectiveness. Things often aren't as black-and-white as they seem, and of course everything seems wrong when players are collectively disjointed and individually not quite firing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know you're not arguing that these stats tell the whole picture, and maybe what I'm about to say is covered by stats that you hadn't posted, but the number of shots per game versus the number of times a player tries to work a position for a shot (and fails to get one away) when a better option is available seems the more important stat to consider. I don't think these things are typically recorded however, and this is the eye test I think Rashford and Garnacho quite often fail in.
Hojlund has very natural knack for double and triple movements when trying to get across a defender or find half a yard of space to attack things in the six-yard box. It's something that's very hard to teach; Rashford, Martial and Greenwood (as three players that have played at CF to varying amounts in recent seasons) don't have that knack - they don't throw themselves at things in those areas or get those "scruffy" goals (as Ole called them). Hojlund does have that "scruffy goal" instinct in him, but that no good is we're not fizzing balls across the six yard box for him to attack.
For all of football's tactical and technical advancements, sometimes you do just have to put the ball into a dangerous area and play the percentages in certain moments, especially when you have a player who gambles on those moments again and again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Theres the " I know what I see" stat that goes unwritten.