For those interested in tactics, I highly recommend a podcast episode I listened to this week. It's from the series 'Devils in the Details' which can sometimes be very dry and the geeky statistician hosts aren't the most charismatic presenters. However, the latest episode features guest speaker Jon Mackenzie, who is part of the excellent Tifo team, and whenever he pops up strikes me as one of the most engaging, intellectually curious and enlightening people talking about football at the moment. And the topic is really interesting: joining the dots between United's current dilemma and the wider tactical trends in the sport.
Here it is on Spotify, obviously also available on all the other major platforms too: https://open.spotify.com/episode/1DOMbX792rWxzZncZyXVUR
For the tl;dl crowd:
They talk about United's coaching predicament at the moment, and what the sporting leadership should do if they replace ETH. Mackenzie's view is that ETH wasn't replaced in the summer, because they wanted to properly prepare for the beginning of the next cycle: rigorously think through the game model they want to follow, properly vet and sound out coaches, and have time to recruit the right man in summer 2025, with all of the other aspects of strategy aligned around that coach and game model. In his view, at this point it's even more challenging to bring in a permanent coach - mid-season as well as mid-cycle, so United are better off going for an interim replacement of ETH than trying to find the perfect solution.
They also discuss the 'game model' that United might pursue, and Mackenzie comments on how he thinks the game is starting to look for alternatives to the Guardiola model of trying to have the ball as much as possible. He notes how Arteta's Arsenal has started to evolve into a team that is more and more comfortable out of possession. There's also the point that a team playing catch-up in the league has a chance of bridging the gap more quickly if it gets ahead of the curve in terms of tactical innovation, rather than trying to imitate the tactics of superior teams. Mackenzie suggests a model that builds being excellent out of possession and deadly in transition, on top of the ability to break down teams from sustained possession, could be what you're looking for in the new permanent coach. Also references De Zerbi's ways of provoking conditions while in possession that are similar to counter-attacking opportunities. (It's noted that ETH's ambition of becoming the world's best transitional team indicates he was thinking along these lines, but he has failed to make this happen and seemingly backed away from the idea.)
On the question of the identity of the permanent coach who can realise these kinds of ideas, Mackenzie doesn't claim to know, but - following on the from idea that innovation is the quickest pathway to catching up - suggests that United might consider the risk of appointing someone with new ideas rather than a proven coach whose ideas have already been in circulation for a few years. He name-checks Kieran McKenna as one who seems to be forward-thinking tactically, and also the approach Michael Carrick has taken at Middlesbrough - both obviously figures with the existing connection to United as a potential advantage.
Anyway, listen to the podcast: lots of good detail in the discussion.
United's game model and tactical trends
posted 9 hours, 19 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 14 seconds ago
Thanks for the suggestion RR, will take a look.
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Long time, no speak, Winston. Hope you're well.
posted 9 hours, 10 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 JA606 Class Act (U2462)
posted 21 minutes ago
That's an interesting read and makes sense too, I suppose. It could mean aiming lower on the field this season but perhaps worth the trade off if all ducks are in a row by the start of the next one.
The quest to best Guardiola haunts quite a few teams it seems but maybe the best solution is the simplest one?
I'd like to see, if possible, a return to 442 with a big man/small man partnership up front getting service from hard working wide players with two technically proficient and durable midfielders. It may never happen but that, played well with the right personnel, could work well IMO.
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They actually talk a bit about that, Diafol. Remark that 442 is becoming a bit if a default out of possession structure, and then could turn into a useful in possession shape with less adjustment in transition. (Always thought you're ahead of your time!)
I wonder if Zirkzee has been bought as a puzzle piece that anticipates an eventual shift of this sort - whether as a second striker in 442 or a kind of advanced pivot in a post-Bruno future. When we bought him, all of the profiles of the player basically said: very talented player with huge potential and a very unusual set of attributes (and unlikely to ever become a high volume goal scorer). I'm assuming the club knew at least this much about him, and therefore didn't buy him in the expectation he'd score a shed load of goals as an understudy to Hojlund.
posted 9 hours, 4 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 JA606 Class Act (U2462)
posted 21 minutes ago
That's an interesting read and makes sense too, I suppose. It could mean aiming lower on the field this season but perhaps worth the trade off if all ducks are in a row by the start of the next one.
The quest to best Guardiola haunts quite a few teams it seems but maybe the best solution is the simplest one?
I'd like to see, if possible, a return to 442 with a big man/small man partnership up front getting service from hard working wide players with two technically proficient and durable midfielders. It may never happen but that, played well with the right personnel, could work well IMO.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They actually talk a bit about that, Diafol. Remark that 442 is becoming a bit if a default out of possession structure, and then could turn into a useful in possession shape with less adjustment in transition. (Always thought you're ahead of your time!)
I wonder if Zirkzee has been bought as a puzzle piece that anticipates an eventual shift of this sort - whether as a second striker in 442 or a kind of advanced pivot in a post-Bruno future. When we bought him, all of the profiles of the player basically said: very talented player with huge potential and a very unusual set of attributes (and unlikely to ever become a high volume goal scorer). I'm assuming the club knew at least this much about him, and therefore didn't buy him in the expectation he'd score a shed load of goals as an understudy to Hojlund.
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Whether we bought him to score goals or make goals he's done very little of either so far.
To me he looks like a player who is nowhere near good enough for the levels we are trying to get back to. Im not even confident he's any better than some of the forwards among the bottom clubs. That Delap lad Ipswich have signed from City looks a far better player.
Absolutely no idea what we were thinking with Zirkzee. He just isn't that good.
posted 8 hours, 56 minutes ago
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 JA606 Class Act (U2462)
posted 21 minutes ago
That's an interesting read and makes sense too, I suppose. It could mean aiming lower on the field this season but perhaps worth the trade off if all ducks are in a row by the start of the next one.
The quest to best Guardiola haunts quite a few teams it seems but maybe the best solution is the simplest one?
I'd like to see, if possible, a return to 442 with a big man/small man partnership up front getting service from hard working wide players with two technically proficient and durable midfielders. It may never happen but that, played well with the right personnel, could work well IMO.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They actually talk a bit about that, Diafol. Remark that 442 is becoming a bit if a default out of possession structure, and then could turn into a useful in possession shape with less adjustment in transition. (Always thought you're ahead of your time!)
I wonder if Zirkzee has been bought as a puzzle piece that anticipates an eventual shift of this sort - whether as a second striker in 442 or a kind of advanced pivot in a post-Bruno future. When we bought him, all of the profiles of the player basically said: very talented player with huge potential and a very unusual set of attributes (and unlikely to ever become a high volume goal scorer). I'm assuming the club knew at least this much about him, and therefore didn't buy him in the expectation he'd score a shed load of goals as an understudy to Hojlund.
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Whether we bought him to score goals or make goals he's done very little of either so far.
To me he looks like a player who is nowhere near good enough for the levels we are trying to get back to. Im not even confident he's any better than some of the forwards among the bottom clubs. That Delap lad Ipswich have signed from City looks a far better player.
Absolutely no idea what we were thinking with Zirkzee. He just isn't that good.
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You may well be right mate but you’re basing it on a few games in a struggling team, in his first season in a very different league.
I mean, we can call all signings not good enough then say ‘I told you so’.
posted 8 hours, 55 minutes ago
(Don’t get me wrong he’s not world class or anything, but writing him off at this stage is unfair)
posted 8 hours, 23 minutes ago
I don't think it's a coincidence that recently it's our players that thrive on chaos that have looked our standouts. The 'system' players don't look as good.
The international game has shown though that these chaotic players can play a disciplined role when asked.
posted 8 hours, 14 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 hour, 4 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 14 seconds ago
Thanks for the suggestion RR, will take a look.
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Long time, no speak, Winston. Hope you're well.
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All good thanks mate, hope you are too.
posted 8 hours, 14 minutes ago
“Mackenzie's view is that ETH wasn't replaced in the summer, because they wanted to properly prepare for the beginning of the next cycle: rigorously think through the game model they want to follow, properly vet and sound out coaches, and have time to recruit the right man in summer 2025, with all of the other aspects of strategy aligned around that coach and game model.”
I think that’s exactly what’s happening. As I’ve said previously, ETH is an interim head coach in Ineos’s eyes.
If he starts turning in better results *and* the sporting management sees the football the side is playing aligning with their ideals (or evolving in that direction), there’s a chance he gets another renewal.
For now, we’re in something of a holding pattern whilst the sporting management work on their strategy.
posted 8 hours, 12 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 JA606 Class Act (U2462)
posted 10 minutes ago
I don't think it's a coincidence that recently it's our players that thrive on chaos that have looked our standouts. The 'system' players don't look as good.
The international game has shown though that these chaotic players can play a disciplined role when asked.
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Bruno MOTM against Poland
posted 8 hours, 8 minutes ago
comment by rosso says the time has come to unlock the unlimited Pote-ntial of the Fernçalvenoo triumvirate (U17054)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 JA606 Class Act (U2462)
posted 10 minutes ago
I don't think it's a coincidence that recently it's our players that thrive on chaos that have looked our standouts. The 'system' players don't look as good.
The international game has shown though that these chaotic players can play a disciplined role when asked.
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Bruno MOTM against Poland
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The one I had in mind! Better than Silva for them!