Sell Zirkhorst?

Rasmus has all the raw attributes of an excellent CF, but he’s also got weaknesses that you’d expect of someone his age.

To me he’s actually more impressive off the bench. His rawness, pace and power seem better suited at this point against tired legs in a game that’s starting to stretch a little bit. Zirkzee also looks a bit better off the bench as well.

Ultimately that’s the problem we have. Both players aren’t yet ready to lead the line from the start week in week out in the PL.

comment by Ali - 🇪🇦 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 (U1192)
posted 2 hours, 44 minutes ago
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 1 hour, 12 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 9 minutes ago
I think Zz is a talented player and one who could come good in a system that benefits from the specific attributes of his unusual profile. Maybe in an Amorim team where he had the right kinds of players for his template it could be worth hanging onto him and easing him into this league while innovating the game plan. In the current circumstances (severely lacking in Plan A players of sufficient quality / athleticism, while lacking funds to invest) it would seem very sensible to release players who aren't an easy fit and who have market value.
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You're so far off the truth here. Amorim's teams have been dynamic and energetic haven't they? He's anything but those two things.

He's going to be moved on as he simply doesn't fit this
managers style at all. I genuinely don't think he's that good either.
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I've said he's not a profile fit, which is largely because he's not a mobile, channel-running CF. My point is that we could have potentially seen Amorim evolve tactics to accommodate a different kind of player to what he usually wants from his forwards *if* we didn't lack the basic components of the system. Really not sure what you think you disagree with.
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I get that but to be brutally honest.....I don't want him to deviate and adapt his tactics. ETH did that after a handful of games and never really got his message through.

Take the pain now, hopefully stay up which I think we will do, and stick to the new system. We know we need a lot of new players to make this work long term and we have to just face facts that this season is a write off.
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Tbh I hate the idea of buying new players to "fit the system". Pro footballers should be able to adapt. They're not facking imbeciles, you'd hope

How is a left back or a right back any different to a wingback really? They ain't. Evra, Irwin, left backs, would be absolutely fine in this system.

It just makes us rigid and if Amorim leaves we're facked again unless Utd hire another 3 at the back manager. Don't see many of em around.

I just think we're facking ourselves over "let's go buy that specialised left wingback, that specialised right back, another CBs who knows how to play 3 at the back, and a couple of 10s specialised for the 3-4-3 formation to replace Bruno and Mount.

Dunno, just think rigidity is a bad idea, personally.
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All of the best options for LWB; Ait-Nouri, Davies, Mendes etc have played in back fours just as much as they’ve played as wing-backs.

The point is that profile wise, you want wingbacks to be able to take their man on and be a real attacking threat with the ball because the system will usually see those players see plenty of the ball. Having a more defensively minded fullback slot into the wing back role might be solid defensively but will be toothless in attack. It doesn’t mean you sign layers who can’t play at FB, but it does mean you’re looking at fullbacks who are better going forward than in their defending.

Ditto wingers verses inside LF/RF. You need to sign players that can offer a threat wide, but have the technical ability, close control and cuteness to their game that’s also means they’re effective inside in more congested areas of the pitch. So whether the system is 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 shouldn’t matter if the recruitment is good.

I read a stat earlier that all the goals we've scored in the PL under Amorim have come when an attacking player has been playing in a wing back position. We've scored none when it's been defensive wing backs!

comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Ali - 🇪🇦 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 (U1192)
posted 2 hours, 44 minutes ago
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 1 hour, 12 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 9 minutes ago
I think Zz is a talented player and one who could come good in a system that benefits from the specific attributes of his unusual profile. Maybe in an Amorim team where he had the right kinds of players for his template it could be worth hanging onto him and easing him into this league while innovating the game plan. In the current circumstances (severely lacking in Plan A players of sufficient quality / athleticism, while lacking funds to invest) it would seem very sensible to release players who aren't an easy fit and who have market value.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

You're so far off the truth here. Amorim's teams have been dynamic and energetic haven't they? He's anything but those two things.

He's going to be moved on as he simply doesn't fit this
managers style at all. I genuinely don't think he's that good either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I've said he's not a profile fit, which is largely because he's not a mobile, channel-running CF. My point is that we could have potentially seen Amorim evolve tactics to accommodate a different kind of player to what he usually wants from his forwards *if* we didn't lack the basic components of the system. Really not sure what you think you disagree with.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I get that but to be brutally honest.....I don't want him to deviate and adapt his tactics. ETH did that after a handful of games and never really got his message through.

Take the pain now, hopefully stay up which I think we will do, and stick to the new system. We know we need a lot of new players to make this work long term and we have to just face facts that this season is a write off.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tbh I hate the idea of buying new players to "fit the system". Pro footballers should be able to adapt. They're not facking imbeciles, you'd hope

How is a left back or a right back any different to a wingback really? They ain't. Evra, Irwin, left backs, would be absolutely fine in this system.

It just makes us rigid and if Amorim leaves we're facked again unless Utd hire another 3 at the back manager. Don't see many of em around.

I just think we're facking ourselves over "let's go buy that specialised left wingback, that specialised right back, another CBs who knows how to play 3 at the back, and a couple of 10s specialised for the 3-4-3 formation to replace Bruno and Mount.

Dunno, just think rigidity is a bad idea, personally.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

All of the best options for LWB; Ait-Nouri, Davies, Mendes etc have played in back fours just as much as they’ve played as wing-backs.

The point is that profile wise, you want wingbacks to be able to take their man on and be a real attacking threat with the ball because the system will usually see those players see plenty of the ball. Having a more defensively minded fullback slot into the wing back role might be solid defensively but will be toothless in attack. It doesn’t mean you sign layers who can’t play at FB, but it does mean you’re looking at fullbacks who are better going forward than in their defending.

Ditto wingers verses inside LF/RF. You need to sign players that can offer a threat wide, but have the technical ability, close control and cuteness to their game that’s also means they’re effective inside in more congested areas of the pitch. So whether the system is 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 shouldn’t matter if the recruitment is good.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The top of the game is so tactical now it probably is a little different to before in terms of the ability for players to adapt from one manager to another. That said, I think just on a basic level United's players are terrible vs the price paid and the level United want/expect to be - the recruitment hasn't just been for another managers tactics, the recruitment has been outright awful and that's the real issue.

We've a really poor blend of players for modern football IMO. We need more runners and more players that can take the opposition on.

I am surprised we've not seen both Garnacho and Amad deployed as the wing backs (in the same line up) in games up to now though just to give us more of an attacking threat from there.

Other posters may know better but has Amorim ever played a 3412 with two CFs? May be worth a try to get more players in the box.

Hell, let's try that tomorrow with Mainoo behind Hojlund and Zirkzee with Casemiro and Eriksen in midfield.

comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 JA606 Class Act (U2462)
posted 7 hours, 45 minutes ago
I read a stat earlier that all the goals we've scored in the PL under Amorim have come when an attacking player has been playing in a wing back position. We've scored none when it's been defensive wing backs!
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Interesting note.

Sporting’s new boss set them up in a 4-2-3-1 against Benfica last night, with Catamo (previously LWB/RWB) on the right wing and Quenda (previously RWB) on the left wing.

Rather than playing attacking fullbacks at wingback, Amorim was playing out and out forwards there, as he has with Amad and Antony.

comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 JA606 Class Act (U2462)
posted 8 hours, 57 minutes ago
I read a stat earlier that all the goals we've scored in the PL under Amorim have come when an attacking player has been playing in a wing back position. We've scored none when it's been defensive wing backs!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This doesn’t surprise me too much. The wing backs will offer an ‘out’ pass throughout the game because they will be very wide and in space. We’ve actually been quite good at the long switch of play out to a wing back. The problem is that unless that player is good one v one and can actually offer a threat in those situations, those switches of play and isolating a wing back against a full back become ineffective.

So if we have scored only when we’ve had that profile of WB on the pitch, it makes sense.

comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 JA606 Class Act (U2462)
posted 8 hours, 57 minutes ago
I read a stat earlier that all the goals we've scored in the PL under Amorim have come when an attacking player has been playing in a wing back position. We've scored none when it's been defensive wing backs!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This doesn’t surprise me too much. The wing backs will offer an ‘out’ pass throughout the game because they will be very wide and in space. We’ve actually been quite good at the long switch of play out to a wing back. The problem is that unless that player is good one v one and can actually offer a threat in those situations, those switches of play and isolating a wing back against a full back become ineffective.

So if we have scored only when we’ve had that profile of WB on the pitch, it makes sense.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

^ Yep, this.

It’s exactly how Amorim operated at Sporting, with what were effectively wingers at RWB and LWB, working with their ten and Gyokeres during buildup when the play was down their side, and otherwise hugging the opposite touchline and waiting for the switch.

comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 38 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 JA606 Class Act (U2462)
posted 8 hours, 57 minutes ago
I read a stat earlier that all the goals we've scored in the PL under Amorim have come when an attacking player has been playing in a wing back position. We've scored none when it's been defensive wing backs!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This doesn’t surprise me too much. The wing backs will offer an ‘out’ pass throughout the game because they will be very wide and in space. We’ve actually been quite good at the long switch of play out to a wing back. The problem is that unless that player is good one v one and can actually offer a threat in those situations, those switches of play and isolating a wing back against a full back become ineffective.

So if we have scored only when we’ve had that profile of WB on the pitch, it makes sense.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If we had wing backs that could consistently beat their man I think we'd immediately look better and get better results.