Bizarre call-ups to replace call-offs..

McGregor
Hutton Caldwell Berra Wallace
Naismith Brown Fletcher Faddy
Miller McCormack

"There was a guy on here defending Levein for that 'cos "Roma went a full season without a real striker"
That's what you deal with on here."

I see you've not changed the record since I was last on here QB. I assume I'm the "guy" you were referring to. But I think you've handily misremembered my argument. I brought Roma into the debate in the wider context of how formations are a very small part of tactics, and a 4-6-0 formation isn't by definition defensive. You could easily argue Barcelona play 4-6-0. Levein's version of 4-6-0 was defensive. I was in no way making a defence of his tactics. He got it wrong that night.

But does it really surprise you the manager of a team who most agree has improved in the last two years might have some people who don't want him sacked? Not everyone is 100% behind him, but some, including myself, think he's is growing into the job.
Some people, presumably including you, didn't want him from the start and I would guess nothing he does will convince you otherwise.

And can we please let the Fletcher olive branch thing die, unless someone has something new to add to the debate. Levein won't pick him until Fletcher says he wants to play for his country. It would make no sense for him to do otherwise.

Renegade - "I don't think you'll find many fans of Levein if any at all." - I don't think you really understand much, if anything at all.
"he was just lucky that guys like Bannan were making the breakthrough for Villa. Bardsley switching was not down to Levein. Lucky that Adam and other young players uping their game coincided with his time in charge."
I think you might be onto something here. Come to think of it, Alex Ferguson is lucky so many good players have played for Man Utd over the last 20 years and that coincided with his reign as manager. And that Messi is just lucky he's good at football, or else there's no way he'd be playing for Barca.

/sarcasm

"I think you might be onto something here. Come to think of it, Alex Ferguson is lucky so many good players have played for Man Utd over the last 20 years and that coincided with his reign as manager. And that Messi is just lucky he's good at football, or else there's no way he'd be playing for Barca."


Your comparison is a ridiculous one. How can you compare Barcelona/United to Scotland? Making such an idiotic comparison does nothing but show your argument up to be nonsense.

There is a big difference between club management and international management.

Levein did not develop the likes of Banan and Adam who have grown as players over the last two years. Whereas it is obvious the likes of United and Barcelona do a great deal for their players, and have the opportunity to pick up the best young players from around the world.

The Scotland manager is in a position where he must pick the best squad from the pool of players available to him. He works with these players for very little time. The basis for his decision is on how they are doing at their respective clubs.

Could he ignore the likes of Bardsley, Adam and Bannan? No obviously not.

It was nothing to do with him that these players were doing well at club level.

So by your logic, no international manager can ever take credit for his side's successes, or conversely, be criticised for their failures.

Bannan has played 20 games for his club side and we are strong in midfield; he could very, very easily have been ignored. Levein played him for nine games in a row (I think) he's clearly developed on the international scene during that time.

So by your logic, no international manager can ever take credit for his side's successes, or conversely, be criticised for their failures.

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No that's not what I've said whatsoever.

I argue that it was easy for Levein to improve upon his initial results. I argue that it is not international managers who oversee the development of young players. No doubt by exposing them to international football they can aid the development but in reality international managers spend very little time with their players.

And that the development of some players during this time, made it even easier for Levein to improve upon his initial results.

Bannan made a big impression at Villa when he first got a run in the side under Houllier, being highlighted on MOTD etc. I don't believe that he could have been ignored easily at all. Its not often a Scottish player makes a big impression in a big league.

The group we were in was the best chance of qualifying for an international tournament in a while.

Now we are left with a far more difficult group to come out of.

"I argue that it was easy for Levein to improve upon his initial results."

You argue we have improved under his managerial reign yet give him none of the credit. Does that not strike you as slightly disingenuous?

As for Bannan, I would argue his inclusion in international football has helped him make an impact at club level. He wasn't getting a regular game when Levein first picked him. He didn't get a proper run in the first team until he had a few caps under his belt.

I think this group is easier to get out of than the last one. We had no chance of winning our group with Spain in it. I don't see much to fear in this group and we are in a better position than we were two years ago. I think Levein has helped us improve; you seem to be suggesting we've got we've improved despite him.

You argue we have improved under his managerial reign yet give him none of the credit. Does that not strike you as slightly disingenuous?

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No it doesn't. In my mind we should have done better than we have. At the end of the day we failed to come second.

Wilson wasn't getting a regular game when Levein picked him. Wilson did well, despite that he's no longer being picked.

I don't see the next group as easier at all. Know how you've came to that conclusion.

Belgium, Serbia and Croatia are all much better than the Czech Republic for me. Only positive is that guys like Vidic have retired for Serbia. Not to mention Wales have a good record against us in recent years, apart from the last game where they were missing a few key players.

I'm not suggesting we've improved in spite of him. He did that badly at the start we could only improve. But what I also think is true is that the players we have available now are better than they were 2 years ago.

What really gets me about that was his refusal to this day to take any responsibility for getting us put out of the tournament after tyhe first 3 games.
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That's not true, he admitted after the campaign that he wished he had done certain things differently and that it had cost us in the end. Ok, he wasn't specific, but I think we all know what he meant.

I'm not a huge lover of Levein but at the same time I'm not actively wanting him out.

He was far too inexperienced for the job and so it was always going to be a rocky start, although his team is still a million times better than Burley's.

I think he's probably done enough to start the next campaign. You have to be realistic as well, looking at the players we have, regardless of the manager, qualification is going to be very difficult for us for any tournament.

Also, there is literally no-one to replace him with that could do much better.

When your best defender is Gary Caldwell and your best striker is Kenny Miller you will struggle.

For me Levein certainly deserves some criticisim but I find it strange that no-one is criticising any of the players. Caldwell, Hutton, Crainey, Morrison, Adam, none of them were near good enough in recent games. Hutton in particular is an absolute shadow of his former self. No touch, no passing ability, no cross even his pace seems to be lacking these days and yet he has had no criticism from the press or fans.

Belgium, Serbia and Croatia are all much better than the Czech Republic for me
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Not sure about that. Croatia maybe, but the other two..don't think so.

The difference in this group is everyone is capable of taking points off each other. There probably won't be a run away winner and a lot of draws are on the cards. Whether that makes it easier for us to qualify or not I don't know. Probably doesn't.

Belgium, Serbia and Croatia are all much better than the Czech Republic for me
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Not sure about that. Croatia maybe, but the other two..don't think so.

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Really? Belgium have the likes of Kompany, Vermaelen, Hazard, Fellaini who everyone knows. Plus regulars at Atletico Madrid, Porto, Bayern etc. A young striker that cost Chelsea £20m or so. They've got far more than the Czechs.

Serbia maybe not so much with guys like Vidic and Stankovic not playing anymore. But even still got more players than we do at top clubs.