I started writing this as a reply to a few points made by Largehat in an earlier article about loyalty and switched allegiances. It soon became too lengthy to be a simple reply and opened a few things I thought might be interesting subjects for debate.
I lived away from Bolton for 9 months about 17 years ago. I've lived away at other times too but this was the first time I'd been anywhere else for a length of time. I lived in Carlisle and while there I wanted to get a regular dose of footy and decided to catch a game at Brunton park and watch Carlisle United. It was only round the corner from my digs and there was a home game on three days after I'd moved there. I saw the groups of lads filing to the ground and had a pang of homesickness, it reminded me of going to Burnden with my mates. I grabbed my coat, got a ticket at the ground and headed to a pub. I got a few funny looks (I had a wanderers scarf on, it was cold up there) , but after explaining I just fancied seeing some footy I was quickly into a general conversation about football and away I went.
Reasonable ticket prices, a good small ground atmosphere and some good pubs near the ground meant I felt at ease going there pretty quickly. I met some more of the local lads and started meeting them regularly to attend the games and get out for a few bevvies well into the evenings.
Now, my first loyalty at that time was BWFC and I still got to a few Wanderers matches in that season, but I did actually turn down a Wanderers ticket a few times so I could see a crunch match for Carlisle. Where does that put me on Largehat's blind loyalty scale?
I saw lots of lower league football with a team I had no particular loyalty to, but I now hold an affection for. Was I a turn-coat for that season? have I marked my card forever?
My cousin Bob, sadly no longer with us, was a die-hard Wanderer. He moved for employment reasons to Northampton and while there he started going to see his local side for a football fix. The nearest side being Rushden And Diamonds. He followed them for a good 12 seasons before he died much too young of cancer. In that time he never stopped wanting to talk Wanderers whenever I saw him and he watched games in the pub whenever we were on but he followed Rushden home and away and held a season ticket.
Where does he lie on the turn-coat scale Largehat? Does the scale of betrayal not count if you move from your home to somewhere else in the country? In these days of being able to see any match on the internet, would i be a turn-coat if I go and see another team live on a match day when I could be at home watching Wanderers, all be it with Korean commentary?
Is a fan only a turn-coat if he, for personal and strongly held convictions, decides he's had enough and wants something different? Like the fan of FC United that Largehat so strongly and spitefully vilified in the article further down, I too have a strong dislike of overpaid prima donnas not worthy of their bank bonus busting wages. I don't like the way sometimes the club seems not to care about the normal average fan. If I thought I couldn't possibly take any more of it I might think of going supporting someone non-league and try the alternative. Is this worse or better than doing it due to geographical circumstance?
I'd be interested in the views of others but my personal view is this. Football is still the working man's game no matter how much the FA and others would like to gentrify and sanitise it. As such it needs to be seen live. I will be a Wanderer forever but I refuse to criticise others who might switch loyalties when they finally get sick of the top flight game for what are to them, very good reasons. If I'd stayed in Carlisle I'm certain I'd be going to games there still and perhaps my love of BWFC would have faded in favour of Carlisle united by now. Who knows?
TheHatecamel.
Where And What Price Loyalty?
posted on 4/1/12
Largehat, I still don't understand where your level of bile comes from towards the guy who wrote the article? I'd have thought there are far more deserving things for you to have such a level of feeling as to be "Disgusted".
it's your choice however, I was attempting to gauge where your dividing lines are and what exactly makes someone a turn-coat. It's because he left BWFC to become a follower of a non-league side that has no reasonable possibility of being a rival. Local but then you'd not reasonably expect him to travel miles to go see his new side. Set up by some ex-fans of Manchester United ? Is that the rub?
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Pretty much. Although in answer to your first question, it's not something I give any thought to away from mediums such as this or when thinking about football in general.
I'd be ashamed to be writing an article about a folk hero (John McGinlay) at a club I'd turned my back on because 10 years later, some pretty average local lad was playing at fullback and kicked the ball out of play.
As a football fan of 20 years I'd expect him to be accustomed to taking the rough with the smooth. In 2006 though, we were on a real high, had some wonderful players and qualified for Europe. His explanation is that Nicky Hunt put the ball out of play. If that offends him so, what is he expecting in the Northern Premier League? Total football?
I'm not blind to the wider point that there is a certain disillusionment with PL football which many feel at different points. But as I said in my discussion with Madnotlobian, I just don't see that you can pick and choose which aspects of your club you like and dislike and then turn your back on them, and expect not to be seriously frowned upon by loyal fans.
In relation to your article though, I'm not happy about the fact that my point was clearly about someone who abandoned his club for a local team set up by fans of our local rivals, and you made me out to be some plank who is averse to people going to see other games.
You find my contempt for this individual to be spiteful and unreasonable, a criticism which I am open to and accept, it doesn't rationalise characterising me in that way - just as Madnotlobian sought to characterise me as a Neanderthal in the other thread on the basis that I have a different perspective on loyalty.
posted on 4/1/12
'm not blind to the wider point that there is a certain disillusionment with PL football which many feel at different points. But as I said in my discussion with Madnotlobian, I just don't see that you can pick and choose which aspects of your club you like and dislike and then turn your back on them, and expect not to be seriously frowned upon by loyal fans.
............
agreed...
I hate Bolton sometimes, other times I love them...
I wouldn't however, ever stop being a fan - like i said, im with large hat for once on this, the guy who watches FC united has no sense of loyalty at all and turned his back on the wanderers for very little.
by all means, hate them when you have too and love them when you can...but you should remain loyal to your boyhood (first) club until the day you die!
posted on 4/1/12
I wasn't characterising you as Spiteful and unreasoning Largehat. Just that your reaction to the guy's article, because of his footballing allegiances and where he chooses now to place it, is. You decided you couldn't read what was an entertaining and nostalgic article because he stopped supporting BWFC.
In my eyes and judging by the timing of his defection I'm guessing he fell out of love with the premiership at the same time the lads from United fell out of love with their club. And for some of the same reasons. Those are personal to him and probably weren't taken lightly. I know I couldn't do what he did without needing very good reasons. The ethos of the club he joined probably played a large part in the choice of club.
You say though you are open to the fact that you may be being Unreasoning and spiteful being pointed out to you, but that I have no reason to do it. I tend to stay away from keyboard arguments as they end up circular.
I usually agree with most of your comments and articles but this time I can't. If it was someone ditching BWFC for Manchester United then I'd feel different. But being as the situation is, I not only think it's spiteful and unreasoning to feel like you do but also petty and childish.
posted on 4/1/12
Large hat, here's an apology- I take back the neanderthal thing I said about you as being out of order.
Back to your above point, you know full well the guy's decision wasn't just about Nicky Hunt, he said that was the last straw.
Maybe NH had passed him in his Ferrari (or the Lamborghini, he had one of each). Or maybe he'd seen the Panorama which pretty much spelled out how BSA and his lad were helping themselves to a big bent slice of his club's money. Or maybe he'd just found out Megson's agent and 'best friend' was also the guy Bolton used to recruit him as manager.
Or maybe- and I think this is the truth of the matter- he'd just got sick of the whole Prem thing. I, and many others, know the feeling.
posted on 4/1/12
Or maybe he'd just found out Megson's agent and 'best friend' was also the guy Bolton used to recruit him as manager
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It would have been a bit silly and illegal to use Harry Redknapp's agent.
posted on 4/1/12
THC:
"But being as the situation is, I not only think it's spiteful and unreasoning to feel like you do but also petty and childish."
Again, you could be right. I don't have any right to sling mud and use some of the vernacular I did in that thread without expecting to take a load of grief from people who disagree.
Madnotlobian wrote:
"Large hat, here's an apology- I take back the neanderthal thing I said about you as being out of order. "
Appreciated but unnecessary - I sent a load of custard pies in your direction too, and was probably asking for it.
"Or maybe- and I think this is the truth of the matter- he'd just got sick of the whole Prem thing. I, and many others, know the feeling. "
And you don't go and support FC United because...?
Seriously, I don't care how sick of the Prem this guy was. It's not like Oasis syndrome... you know the thing I mean, where you love a band until you see every man and his dog wearing a t-shirt and they are on Radio 1 every half an hour, and that causes you to start going off them.
For me, team loyalty is something that should be immune to factors like league table, players wages, manager, club crest, or whatever other variable you might care to throw at me. Sure, love football, visit other grounds, celebrate goals with fans of other clubs, but BWFC is in my heart and personally if I was so disillusioned with them for any reason I'd disengage for a while. Stop going to games. Stop spouting on here. Ignore match of the day. But I'd go back one day.
posted on 4/1/12
'It would have been a bit silly and illegal to use Harry Redknapp's agent.'
Er hang on RB, do you not think that was a little bit suspicious. You employ someone to find you an employee. They put forward a close friend who they also act for. They get a fee from the club and their friend.
And for the record, the employee turns out, when further scrutinised, to be absolutely appalling.
The whole thing was bent, mate, and you know it.
posted on 4/1/12
Madnot
The only way a manager can be approached is though his legally appointed agent.
Bolton don't employ agents, Gartside makes the enquiries to potential targets, plyer or manager, through there agents who are instructed to look after their affairs.
posted on 4/1/12
It's just a game of football y'know, it's not like someone defecting to the Waffen SS during WWII, is it?
A sense of perspective wouldn't go amiss here ......
posted on 4/1/12
Well said Firstof.