I wonder because i was reading Kenny's biography and their was something that jumped out of the page at me, he said;
"the only trophies worth winning are the league and the european cup"
Now for me and this may not be the same for others, but for me a BIG club is a club that wins the big trophies on a consistent basis or almost always contends for the big trophies.
Liverpool last won a League title in 1989-90 thats 21 years since they last won the number one trophy on Kennys lips, and with one Champions League (great comeback by the way) in 2004-05, Liverpool have won 1 of the two major trophies in Kenny's eyes, in 20 years.
For me that doesnt make Liverpool a big club in terms of football, however its differcult to not say they are a big club in terms of foreign fanbase, and commerically they are as big as they come, and with a rich history, Liverpool would have to be considered historical giants.
Wheras say look at United, over the same twenty years have picked up 12 League titles, 2 Champions Leagues, are the biggest commerical club in the country, they are now historically the most successful side in english history, and also have a huge foreign fanbase.
My question too all fans of all clubs is what makes a club a big club?
(i did try to get this on the 5 most sucecssful english teams boards, only allows one)
What Makes A Club Big?
posted on 29/6/11
Merthyr - Good god no - should be first on anyone's list
seriously though - Everton - I don't see it....by what are you judging them to be a big club
I reckon there are the following criteria to assess it by
Full history of honours
recent history (20 years) honours
size of stadium (capacity)
% of that capacity filled on home games
That should give an indication...
Note - Newcastle would struggle on honours - but score big on ground & how many attend...
Waddaya think..
posted on 29/6/11
Sunderland are a big club. Bigger than Newcastle.
posted on 29/6/11
redblack
See criteria above...
They might be - they probably aren't (not even been Premiership ever presents...)
posted on 29/6/11
You could add these to the criteria list
Seasons in top flight
European qualification
posted on 29/6/11
But Football goes back more than 25 years and its vthe History that determines the size of a club. Thats almost like saying Wimbledon are bigger than Man City (until they won the Cup this year).
Sunderland have won the league 6 times. How many
clubs can say that?
posted on 29/6/11
Howdy Sherrif
Did a bit of research (on company time of course). To make it easier to draw a comparison I will compare Everton to Chelsea.
Ave attendance over the last twenty years.
Everton 33803 (84% of capacity)
Chelsea 37667 (90% of capacity)
Ground Capacity
Everton 40157
Chelsea 41841
Honours
Everton
9 league titles
7 runner up
5 fa cup
8 runner up
1 cup winners cup
Chelsea
5 league titles
4 runner up
6 fa cup
4 runner up
2 cup winners cup
4 league cup
I agree that Chelsea have had much greater success over the last twenty years, but to counter that Everton have played more top flight games than any other team and have benn constantly in the top flight since 1954.
I am neither an Everton fan or Chelsea hater, the list I drew up was just my opinion at a moment in time. Bearing in mind all the stats I have put on I will include Chelsea as being a Big Club but I think you would have to agree that Everton are also. We can't say they are not based on the fact they have been unsuccessful for the last twenty years.
I have to disagree about Newcastle though, judging by your profile you seem to be about my age so you will remember the bad old days when they were getting 15000 crowds in the late 70s/early 80s. They have not won a major trophy for 42 years. That puts them on a par with Man City for me and they are not widely considered a big club.
posted on 29/6/11
Custard...
Good points - I guess you'd have to have a scoring system for all aspects of the criteria i've mentioned (& possibly others that i've missed)
Chelsea's attendance against capacity in the last ten years is more like 95%
Re Newcastle - I suppose geographically they (& Sunderland) have an advantage whereby they can pull from a largely populated but mainly isolated area, giving them good points in the ground capacity & % filled section
Whereas Man City are the neuveau riche & have inherited a big stadium from the commonwealth games
not to mention enough wonga to buy most clubs out should they feel the urge
So on that basis you'd have to acknowledge that they are a huge club now, even without winning jack for centuries
Back in the day - (1970's to 90's) when money wasn't an issue - Liverpool were the biggest club by virtue of winning everything - Man Utd were a big club with the stadium & winning a fair bit
Chelsea had the Kings road swagger - but that was about it
Ken Bates saved them from bankrupcy in the 80's....
I'd say the best bet would be to have a Pre & post premiership - big club list
Back in the 40's & 50's Pompey & Wolves won loads - you wouldn't entertain them in the list now
posted on 29/6/11
I agree, always had a soft spot for Wolves though as that was my first away game. It was in the bad old days. I was a handy middle distance runner back in the day and it came in useful coming out of Molineux that time.
posted on 29/6/11
Lets make one thing clear, the era in which United have been successful is a commercial one and that has allowed United to stay on top for this long.
They now have the power and the financial muscle to stay on top for pretty much forever.
pre 1992 This wasn't the case.
I'm not trying to knock Uniteds accolades as they've been brilliant but you can't deny that 90% of the top flight teams don't stand a chance before a ball is kicked and that's down to the financial power that the top clubs have.
It's not as fair a game and nobody can argue with that.
posted on 29/6/11
If you went on Prem years only (when the money has been in the game) and put teams against Man Utd (who are undisputedly the prems biggest club) getting marked at 100% for each of the following headings;
a)Ground size
b) % of capacity filled at home
c) Champions
d) other Cups won
e) CL qualification
You could then measure the rest of the teams who think they might be a big club
So Chelsea would come out as
a) 56%
b) 99.8%
c) 25%
d) 90%
e) 61%
Overall 66 %
Everton
a) 52%
b) 97.2%
c) 0%
d) 9%
e) 0%
Overall 31%
Ergo - Chelsea are twice as big as Everton
Notes -
Goodison & Stamford Bridge are both restricted by their immediate surrounding areas as goes expansion
There are cups & cups - Utd have won the CL twice in this time as part of that equation