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Comment deleted by Site Moderator
. We did concede 44 goals, one more than Arsenal. Now considering the tumoil on and off the pitch under Hodgson and H&G which gave us the worst start in the league in over 50 years, I'd be more worried that Arsenal only conceded one goal less that what we did.
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You know, we also experienced an appalling vein of form, after the disheartening Carling Cup final result. That led to us being comprehensively outclassed by meager opposition and why we were flooding in lots of goals. So, whilst you can blame your team for letting in too many goals with Hodgson's tactical negligence, we can blame our leak of goals, under the unstable mentality which was proliferated throughout our entire squad after the game against Brummie.
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. It is merely a stat about how many crosses he made. The OP from the other post made no assumptions or conclusions from the stat. What we as LIverpool fans do notice however is that we need a player who will supply Carroll and in Downing that is what we have.
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But is he the type of player you should be targeting? I've heard that Kenny Dalglish is adhering to British antediluvian methodology and is attempting to build Liverpool upon a British core. Is that the right thing to do? Really? Does he actually think that building Liverpool upon a British substructure is the way to get you guys into the Champions League and to reclaim your status once again? Downing is decent, but not that good. I appreciate Dalglish for what he's done in the past and for how he transformed Liverpool when he came at the helm, but spending £80 million (allegedly & to date) on average British players is not the way to go forward. You can and should be after better footballers, who can provide you with something extra. You seem to be getting players that will cross the ball in for Carroll to get on the end of. What are your other alternatives?
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There are plenty of times when the defender gets to the cross first and it is cleared or the keeper catches it which means it isn't a goal scoring opportunity.
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Even if that was true, you have to admit that in 44 games, 7 assists from 324 crosses doesn't reflect well on him. And if he was as good as most Liverpool fans appear to think, surely, the finesse & quality of the crossing should be finer.
Other than that, I've got no other problem with your post.
Andy Suarez
Pseudo-intellectual trolls are the best in my opinion. They don't like to admit when they are wrong & **** off & - like you have just pointed out - get wound up.
Thanks, I'm going to look his thread up for a giggle.
Samir_Nasri_is_our_Messi - ''Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves'' - Abraham Lincoln. Free Luka!
You make some valid points.
You did have a bad patch in the season but it was nowhere near as bad as what we went through during Hodgson's reign. We were woeful. In all my years watching us this was the worst I'd ever seen and I've been supporting them for 25 years. Kenny transformed that completely, and from January to the end of the season we were the third best team in the league. Of course there was no pressure but we still had to beat other teams for who it did matter.
I honestly believe that Downing, Henderson, Adam and Carroll are the way forward. There are two reasons why? Firstly they all have experience of the league. We could have bought foriegn but it is a gamble. Mata is great in Spain but could he cut the PL. We've had our fair share of bad transfers in the past. These boys will hit the ground running. All of them were amongst the best in their respective positions last season. (Please note that I did not say the best, but amongst the best). Secondly, we've had too many good foreign players leave in the last few years, players that we were building a team around. Alonso, Mascherano and Torres have left (for whatever reason). British players generally won't move abroad and once they are at Liverpool, there aren't many teams better and those that are we won't sell to them, so hopefully that means that they will stay for the long run.
The stats re. crosses shouldn't scrutinised too much and they shouldn't be compared to assists. What we are looking at is that he gets himself into positions where he can cross and attempt to create opportunities. The quality of the delivery can be worked on. Carroll's main strength is in the air so if have someone like Downing who will create chances for him.
so batmanu didn't post once someone came back with a decent reply to his post, even though he was asking for someone to do it. Makes you wonder.....
"1. Why does it matter that Arsenal and Spurs had a bad patch in February. That's your problem not ours. The facts show that we were better than you from January onwards."
The same facts would say Everton were better than us too but I wouldn't read much into that.
"3. We did concede 44 goals, one more than Arsenal. Now considering the tumoil on and off the pitch under Hodgson and H&G which gave us the worst start in the league in over 50 years, I'd be more worried that Arsenal only conceded one goal less that what we did. "
Does it matter that you were in turmoil or that you had you worst start in 50 odd years? Fact of the matter is you conceded more goals than us. Do you hear Arsenal fans complaining about having 4 keepers out injured at the same time and having to bring one out of retirement? Do you hear them complaining about having to force 2 new center backs to form a partnership without having time to settle in England for most of the season? Do you hear them complaining about Vermaelen playing all but 4 games or Johan Djourou being forced to play 2 games a week, week in, week out for 4 months after returning from an 18 month injury and again after being rushed back from what was meant to be a season ending dislocated shoulder? No you don't, so less moaning about Hodgson, the better.
"4. Presumably we're talking about premier league games only. It would be unfair to use other competitions as certain players (ie. those that play in Europe) play more games than others which would make the stats distorted. In the PL Arshavin got 11 assists, Fabregas also got 11 and Nani got 14."
Not sure where you got your figures from because in the PL alone Nani got 18 and Cesc got 13, but no I am not not talking about just the PL, I am talking about all 4 competitions from last season. And trust me, that doesn't distort any stats considering Cesc missed almost half the season through injury, Arshavin was no more than a squad player by Christmas and Nani barely featured in any cup competitions (Europe and domestically) last season anyway.
"Downing got 7, Adam got 8 and Henderson got 4, but we must make allowances for the quality of players each is playing with. Its not surprising that Nani got the most assists playing with the likes of Hernandez and Berbatov. What is more impressive is that Adam managed 8 with Blackpool. Imagine what he'll do with Liverpool."
Why do you assume that the amount of assists they make has anything to do with the quality surrounding them? Has it not occurred to you that at a bigger club like Liverpool, less attacks will go through them than at their previous clubs where they were the main men? Do you think if Fabregas leaves Arsenal for a far more superior Barca his stats will improve? Football doesn't always work like that.
"6. It is merely a stat about how many crosses he made. The OP from the other post made no assumptions or conclusions from the stat. What we as LIverpool fans do notice however is that we need a player who will supply Carroll and in Downing that is what we have."
Fair enough.
"7. Why should he define what is successful? The stats say that he was behind Giggs, Gerrard, Lampard and Fabregas in doing so. Using you argument you could say that Hernandez is no good, because the majority of his goals are in the six yard box. Does it matter whether he scores them from 25 yards or 2 yards. The fact is he has scored. "
Your comparison of what I am saying to Hernandez is a strange one. Hernandez scoring a goal is genuine end product. However creating a goal scoring opportunity doesn't always lead to a goal.
"9. A cross does not automatically make it a goal scoring opportunty. There are plenty of times when the defender gets to the cross first and it is cleared or the keeper catches it which means it isn't a goal scoring opportunity."
Ok I understand.
"so batmanu didn't post once someone came back with a decent reply to his post, even though he was asking for someone to do it. Makes you wonder....."
I actually was going to reply but after spending about 20minutes to type out my reply accidentally hit the refresh button deleting everything I planned to type and after that was too annoyed to write out another reply. However FatJanMolby (U4297) deserves a reply for being the only one to actually reply to the topic in the OP on this thread so he has got one now.
Batman Eboue
The reason I mention the turmoil is because it affected the club. Hodgson was one of worst managers we've ever had, and there was a very real threat of administration. This affects players, and in my opinion is much worse than injuries. Injuries are part of the game and you deal with it. Before January we were rubbish and in the bottom half of the table, whereas, despite your injuries, you were at one point genuine contenders. And yet at the end of the season we only conceded one more goal than you. Our second half of season display was better than yours, we won more, we scored more and we conceded less and that is what we're hoping to take into next season.
You should be moaning about the injury problems and lack of defence because it clearly shows that you don't have a good enought squad. Wenger's experiment is failing, and the fans should be making a noise about it and not just settling for top 4 each season. You know, as does every other Arsenal fan, that your first XI is great but after that it is pretty average. We had the same problem but we seem to be resolving that. None of the players we have bought are world beaters but they are all players that can do a good job in the PL. Your back up players don't in my opinion. I would much rather have Henderson on the bench to Denilson. I would much rather have Skrtel waiting in the wings to Squillaci, Aquilani to Rosicky, anyone to Bendtner...I could go on but i won't.
This is where I got my Fabregas and Nani stats from.
Fabregas
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/38886/francesc-f%C3%A1bregas?cc=5739
Nani
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/67716/luis-carlos-almeida-da-cunha-nani?cc=5739
Of course the amount of assists has to do with the quality around them. Which 4 players had the most assists last seasons? Nani, Drogba, Fabregas and Arshavin. Which 3 teams scored most goals in the league last season? Arsenal, Man Utd and Chelsea. They have the better players, the better strikers, the better providers. Its simple really. To go further, 11 of the top 20 assist providers came from the top 7 teams. Also 11 of the top 20 goalscorers also came from the top 6 teams. See the correlation. Better strikers score more goals and unless they've taken on the whole team themselves, someone needs to provide an assist.
Why is my Hernandez comparison odd to you. You said that a pass could be 2 yards and it still counts as an assist. I don't see what distance of pass has to do with it. Which is why i used Hernadez as an example. He mostly scores from inside the six yard box. Is he a worse player than someone who scores from 25 yards regularly? No he isn't because he still gets the goals. If Downing did provide a 2 yard pass to someone who then scored from 30 yards out, it is still an assist.
At the end of the day Batman, I'm more than happy with the players we've bought no matter what anyone else thinks. They are team players and last time I looked football was a team game. We also have players within the team that are match winners in Suarez and Gerrard. We're heading in the right direction and I have no doubt that we will finish in the top 4, most likely in place of Arsenal as you were the worst of the top 4 last season and I don't see you improving much especially if Nasri and Fabregas leave, unless Wenger surprises us all and buys some quality.
You did have a bad patch in the season but it was nowhere near as bad as what we went through during Hodgson's reign.
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Comments like this are injudicious, seeing as what you've said above is subjectively introspective. Of course you are going to say that under Hodgson's rein it was worse. You're prone to partisan bias. But after our capitulation, we were 18th in the ''best form'' table, so, statistically, we were actually gaining results on par with teams battling it out in relegation. I have to say that I don't think many people expected Arsenal's team to be so profoundly enervated and to completely collapse in the manner in which the players did. We let one cup final result ruin, what could have been, a promising season. We were in a position to win a trophy (possibly more), and to prove the doubters wrong, in that we were a consolidated side. And then we blew it, after we let one result get the better of us. I guess you guys gained form at the right time, whilst we lost our good run of form when it mattered most.
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I honestly believe that Downing, Henderson, Adam and Carroll are the way forward. There are two reasons why? Firstly they all have experience of the league.
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Well they've hardly set the world alight and based on their individual displays, I would say that they were better off at the clubs they were at (bar Charlie Adam). I think the main issue is not with the players that you have bought, but the prices in which you acquired them.
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All of them were amongst the best in their respective positions last season.
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Hmm, that is very strongly debatable and I wouldn't agree with it. Charlie Adam is a very good player, but there were many other midfielders who outperformed him. Likewise with Carroll and likewise with Downing. They were...satisfactory in their respective positions except there were dozens of players who did better. I would not say any of these players were ''among the best''.
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British players generally won't move abroad and once they are at Liverpool, there aren't many teams better and those that are we won't sell to them, so hopefully that means that they will stay for the long run.
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British players don't usually get sold abroad because they're not good enough for the top clubs or because their wages are extortionate and other clubs would not be willing to compete.
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What we are looking at is that he gets himself into positions where he can cross and attempt to create opportunities.
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And for the ''positions where he can cross'' and ''attempt to create opportunities'', he didn't mount to much. Carroll's main attribute is his aerial ability. Now, what other options do you have?
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most likely in place of Arsenal as you were the worst of the top 4 last season
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I still maintain that we are a better team than Man City, ability wise and the way we work together. But our metal fragility is what let us down and Wenger needs to address it. Whilst I do think Wenger is not the most superlative decision maker around, I still think that we will do better than what most think. People genuinely forget that we commonly do well from August - January and from then onwards, our team seemingly seems to disappear. I think we will stay in the top four next season, but that won't suffice for Arsenal fans anymore because we should be showings signs of improvement; not recession.
Either way, let's just see what happens, come May 2012.
Samir_Nasri_is_our_Messi - ''Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves'' - Abraham Lincoln. Free Luka!
Again some interesting points but I have to disagree on pretty much everything.
Was your bad patch the worst in 57 years? I don't think it was. This is not subjective introspection, it was the statistically the worst start to a season we had in 57 years. That's how Hodgson's short tenure will be remembered.
The period that we're talking about is from mid January when Dalglish took over to the end of the season You played 17 games, won 7, drew 7 and lost 3. We played 18 won 10 drew 3 and lost 5. You can't call that a capitulation I'm afraid. A capitulation would be losing 9 out of 20 games which was what happened under Hodgson. So I can categorically state that our form under Hodgson was worse than any bad patch you suffered last season.
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Well they've hardly set the world alight and based on their individual displays, I would say that they were better off at the clubs they were at (bar Charlie Adam). I think the main issue is not with the players that you have bought, but the prices in which you acquired them
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No one is expecting them to set the world alight. That is not necessarily what is needed at the club. We need solid players who add depth to our squad, which is what Carroll, Downing, Adam and Henderson provide. I agree that the prices were inflated but that is what the market is. Man Utd, who have also been quite busy this summer have paid similar sums for Jones, Young and De Gea.
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They were...satisfactory in their respective positions except there were dozens of players who did better. I would not say any of these players were ''among the best''
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Unfortunately the stats would state otherwise. Adam was 9th in the top assists. Of those players ahead of him only one was a central midfield and that was Fabregas. Everyone else was either a forward, a wide player and Baines was a fullback. Adam therefore was only bettered by one person in his respective position. The same can be said about Downing, a wide midfielder; only Arshavin, Nani and Young created more assists. Again, it can be said that last season he was amongst the best in his respective position. And Carrol was joint 6th top scorer. Again only a handful of people who bettered him.
If we look at this subjectively then we will clearly disagree about who is best in each position. But if you look at it statistically, they were, last season, amongst the best in their respective positions.
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British players don't usually get sold abroad because they're not good enough for the top clubs or because their wages are extortionate and other clubs would not be willing to compete.
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Whilst i agree to some extent, there is also the Little Englander mentality which means that even if they were good enough, they won't move to a foreign country because of different languages, different cultures etc.
You cannot tell me that across the PL there are no English players who are good enough to play in Spain, Italy or Germany. That would simply be untrue. Rooney and Gerrard for example could play in any league and be successful, but the issue they have is that they'd have to learn another language. This is unfortunately an English trait. Those that have gone in the past, such as Rush, Hughes, Owen, came back because they couldn't settle in another country. To be fair the same could be said of Tevez wanting to leave Manchester because of the rubbish weather and because he still can;t speak English properly.
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And for the ''positions where he can cross'' and ''attempt to create opportunities'', he didn't mount to much. Carroll's main attribute is his aerial ability. Now, what other options do you have?
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Downing had a 24% success rate with his crossing. This doesn't sound great but it is actually amongst the highest in the league. Carroll's main attribute is his aerial ability but he also brings a good left foot to the table (see goals against Liverpool and Man City) and he has the ability to make space for others, purely because of his size he takes defenders with him creating space for others.
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I still maintain that we are a better team than Man City, ability wise and the way we work together.
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Now you're being subjective, as the table would tell us otherwise. We were the 6th best team in the league last season and you were the 4th. Man City were the third. You play nicer football, of that there is no doubt, but to say you are a better team than those that finished above you is untrue, as the table, for me, doesn't lie.
Anyway good luck next season. Out of the top 4 I have no issue with Arsenal, I like the way you play football and I like the fact that you are a sustainable club. I wish you well, as long as its not at the expense of taking 4th place from us.
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11 Myths for the New Season
Page 3 of 3
posted on 18/7/11
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posted on 18/7/11
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posted on 18/7/11
. We did concede 44 goals, one more than Arsenal. Now considering the tumoil on and off the pitch under Hodgson and H&G which gave us the worst start in the league in over 50 years, I'd be more worried that Arsenal only conceded one goal less that what we did.
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You know, we also experienced an appalling vein of form, after the disheartening Carling Cup final result. That led to us being comprehensively outclassed by meager opposition and why we were flooding in lots of goals. So, whilst you can blame your team for letting in too many goals with Hodgson's tactical negligence, we can blame our leak of goals, under the unstable mentality which was proliferated throughout our entire squad after the game against Brummie.
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. It is merely a stat about how many crosses he made. The OP from the other post made no assumptions or conclusions from the stat. What we as LIverpool fans do notice however is that we need a player who will supply Carroll and in Downing that is what we have.
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But is he the type of player you should be targeting? I've heard that Kenny Dalglish is adhering to British antediluvian methodology and is attempting to build Liverpool upon a British core. Is that the right thing to do? Really? Does he actually think that building Liverpool upon a British substructure is the way to get you guys into the Champions League and to reclaim your status once again? Downing is decent, but not that good. I appreciate Dalglish for what he's done in the past and for how he transformed Liverpool when he came at the helm, but spending £80 million (allegedly & to date) on average British players is not the way to go forward. You can and should be after better footballers, who can provide you with something extra. You seem to be getting players that will cross the ball in for Carroll to get on the end of. What are your other alternatives?
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There are plenty of times when the defender gets to the cross first and it is cleared or the keeper catches it which means it isn't a goal scoring opportunity.
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Even if that was true, you have to admit that in 44 games, 7 assists from 324 crosses doesn't reflect well on him. And if he was as good as most Liverpool fans appear to think, surely, the finesse & quality of the crossing should be finer.
Other than that, I've got no other problem with your post.
posted on 18/7/11
Andy Suarez
Pseudo-intellectual trolls are the best in my opinion. They don't like to admit when they are wrong & **** off & - like you have just pointed out - get wound up.
Thanks, I'm going to look his thread up for a giggle.
posted on 18/7/11
Samir_Nasri_is_our_Messi - ''Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves'' - Abraham Lincoln. Free Luka!
You make some valid points.
You did have a bad patch in the season but it was nowhere near as bad as what we went through during Hodgson's reign. We were woeful. In all my years watching us this was the worst I'd ever seen and I've been supporting them for 25 years. Kenny transformed that completely, and from January to the end of the season we were the third best team in the league. Of course there was no pressure but we still had to beat other teams for who it did matter.
I honestly believe that Downing, Henderson, Adam and Carroll are the way forward. There are two reasons why? Firstly they all have experience of the league. We could have bought foriegn but it is a gamble. Mata is great in Spain but could he cut the PL. We've had our fair share of bad transfers in the past. These boys will hit the ground running. All of them were amongst the best in their respective positions last season. (Please note that I did not say the best, but amongst the best). Secondly, we've had too many good foreign players leave in the last few years, players that we were building a team around. Alonso, Mascherano and Torres have left (for whatever reason). British players generally won't move abroad and once they are at Liverpool, there aren't many teams better and those that are we won't sell to them, so hopefully that means that they will stay for the long run.
The stats re. crosses shouldn't scrutinised too much and they shouldn't be compared to assists. What we are looking at is that he gets himself into positions where he can cross and attempt to create opportunities. The quality of the delivery can be worked on. Carroll's main strength is in the air so if have someone like Downing who will create chances for him.
posted on 19/7/11
so batmanu didn't post once someone came back with a decent reply to his post, even though he was asking for someone to do it. Makes you wonder.....
posted on 19/7/11
"1. Why does it matter that Arsenal and Spurs had a bad patch in February. That's your problem not ours. The facts show that we were better than you from January onwards."
The same facts would say Everton were better than us too but I wouldn't read much into that.
"3. We did concede 44 goals, one more than Arsenal. Now considering the tumoil on and off the pitch under Hodgson and H&G which gave us the worst start in the league in over 50 years, I'd be more worried that Arsenal only conceded one goal less that what we did. "
Does it matter that you were in turmoil or that you had you worst start in 50 odd years? Fact of the matter is you conceded more goals than us. Do you hear Arsenal fans complaining about having 4 keepers out injured at the same time and having to bring one out of retirement? Do you hear them complaining about having to force 2 new center backs to form a partnership without having time to settle in England for most of the season? Do you hear them complaining about Vermaelen playing all but 4 games or Johan Djourou being forced to play 2 games a week, week in, week out for 4 months after returning from an 18 month injury and again after being rushed back from what was meant to be a season ending dislocated shoulder? No you don't, so less moaning about Hodgson, the better.
"4. Presumably we're talking about premier league games only. It would be unfair to use other competitions as certain players (ie. those that play in Europe) play more games than others which would make the stats distorted. In the PL Arshavin got 11 assists, Fabregas also got 11 and Nani got 14."
Not sure where you got your figures from because in the PL alone Nani got 18 and Cesc got 13, but no I am not not talking about just the PL, I am talking about all 4 competitions from last season. And trust me, that doesn't distort any stats considering Cesc missed almost half the season through injury, Arshavin was no more than a squad player by Christmas and Nani barely featured in any cup competitions (Europe and domestically) last season anyway.
"Downing got 7, Adam got 8 and Henderson got 4, but we must make allowances for the quality of players each is playing with. Its not surprising that Nani got the most assists playing with the likes of Hernandez and Berbatov. What is more impressive is that Adam managed 8 with Blackpool. Imagine what he'll do with Liverpool."
Why do you assume that the amount of assists they make has anything to do with the quality surrounding them? Has it not occurred to you that at a bigger club like Liverpool, less attacks will go through them than at their previous clubs where they were the main men? Do you think if Fabregas leaves Arsenal for a far more superior Barca his stats will improve? Football doesn't always work like that.
"6. It is merely a stat about how many crosses he made. The OP from the other post made no assumptions or conclusions from the stat. What we as LIverpool fans do notice however is that we need a player who will supply Carroll and in Downing that is what we have."
Fair enough.
"7. Why should he define what is successful? The stats say that he was behind Giggs, Gerrard, Lampard and Fabregas in doing so. Using you argument you could say that Hernandez is no good, because the majority of his goals are in the six yard box. Does it matter whether he scores them from 25 yards or 2 yards. The fact is he has scored. "
Your comparison of what I am saying to Hernandez is a strange one. Hernandez scoring a goal is genuine end product. However creating a goal scoring opportunity doesn't always lead to a goal.
"9. A cross does not automatically make it a goal scoring opportunty. There are plenty of times when the defender gets to the cross first and it is cleared or the keeper catches it which means it isn't a goal scoring opportunity."
Ok I understand.
"so batmanu didn't post once someone came back with a decent reply to his post, even though he was asking for someone to do it. Makes you wonder....."
I actually was going to reply but after spending about 20minutes to type out my reply accidentally hit the refresh button deleting everything I planned to type and after that was too annoyed to write out another reply. However FatJanMolby (U4297) deserves a reply for being the only one to actually reply to the topic in the OP on this thread so he has got one now.
posted on 19/7/11
Batman Eboue
The reason I mention the turmoil is because it affected the club. Hodgson was one of worst managers we've ever had, and there was a very real threat of administration. This affects players, and in my opinion is much worse than injuries. Injuries are part of the game and you deal with it. Before January we were rubbish and in the bottom half of the table, whereas, despite your injuries, you were at one point genuine contenders. And yet at the end of the season we only conceded one more goal than you. Our second half of season display was better than yours, we won more, we scored more and we conceded less and that is what we're hoping to take into next season.
You should be moaning about the injury problems and lack of defence because it clearly shows that you don't have a good enought squad. Wenger's experiment is failing, and the fans should be making a noise about it and not just settling for top 4 each season. You know, as does every other Arsenal fan, that your first XI is great but after that it is pretty average. We had the same problem but we seem to be resolving that. None of the players we have bought are world beaters but they are all players that can do a good job in the PL. Your back up players don't in my opinion. I would much rather have Henderson on the bench to Denilson. I would much rather have Skrtel waiting in the wings to Squillaci, Aquilani to Rosicky, anyone to Bendtner...I could go on but i won't.
This is where I got my Fabregas and Nani stats from.
Fabregas
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/38886/francesc-f%C3%A1bregas?cc=5739
Nani
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/67716/luis-carlos-almeida-da-cunha-nani?cc=5739
Of course the amount of assists has to do with the quality around them. Which 4 players had the most assists last seasons? Nani, Drogba, Fabregas and Arshavin. Which 3 teams scored most goals in the league last season? Arsenal, Man Utd and Chelsea. They have the better players, the better strikers, the better providers. Its simple really. To go further, 11 of the top 20 assist providers came from the top 7 teams. Also 11 of the top 20 goalscorers also came from the top 6 teams. See the correlation. Better strikers score more goals and unless they've taken on the whole team themselves, someone needs to provide an assist.
Why is my Hernandez comparison odd to you. You said that a pass could be 2 yards and it still counts as an assist. I don't see what distance of pass has to do with it. Which is why i used Hernadez as an example. He mostly scores from inside the six yard box. Is he a worse player than someone who scores from 25 yards regularly? No he isn't because he still gets the goals. If Downing did provide a 2 yard pass to someone who then scored from 30 yards out, it is still an assist.
At the end of the day Batman, I'm more than happy with the players we've bought no matter what anyone else thinks. They are team players and last time I looked football was a team game. We also have players within the team that are match winners in Suarez and Gerrard. We're heading in the right direction and I have no doubt that we will finish in the top 4, most likely in place of Arsenal as you were the worst of the top 4 last season and I don't see you improving much especially if Nasri and Fabregas leave, unless Wenger surprises us all and buys some quality.
posted on 19/7/11
You did have a bad patch in the season but it was nowhere near as bad as what we went through during Hodgson's reign.
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Comments like this are injudicious, seeing as what you've said above is subjectively introspective. Of course you are going to say that under Hodgson's rein it was worse. You're prone to partisan bias. But after our capitulation, we were 18th in the ''best form'' table, so, statistically, we were actually gaining results on par with teams battling it out in relegation. I have to say that I don't think many people expected Arsenal's team to be so profoundly enervated and to completely collapse in the manner in which the players did. We let one cup final result ruin, what could have been, a promising season. We were in a position to win a trophy (possibly more), and to prove the doubters wrong, in that we were a consolidated side. And then we blew it, after we let one result get the better of us. I guess you guys gained form at the right time, whilst we lost our good run of form when it mattered most.
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I honestly believe that Downing, Henderson, Adam and Carroll are the way forward. There are two reasons why? Firstly they all have experience of the league.
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Well they've hardly set the world alight and based on their individual displays, I would say that they were better off at the clubs they were at (bar Charlie Adam). I think the main issue is not with the players that you have bought, but the prices in which you acquired them.
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All of them were amongst the best in their respective positions last season.
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Hmm, that is very strongly debatable and I wouldn't agree with it. Charlie Adam is a very good player, but there were many other midfielders who outperformed him. Likewise with Carroll and likewise with Downing. They were...satisfactory in their respective positions except there were dozens of players who did better. I would not say any of these players were ''among the best''.
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British players generally won't move abroad and once they are at Liverpool, there aren't many teams better and those that are we won't sell to them, so hopefully that means that they will stay for the long run.
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British players don't usually get sold abroad because they're not good enough for the top clubs or because their wages are extortionate and other clubs would not be willing to compete.
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What we are looking at is that he gets himself into positions where he can cross and attempt to create opportunities.
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And for the ''positions where he can cross'' and ''attempt to create opportunities'', he didn't mount to much. Carroll's main attribute is his aerial ability. Now, what other options do you have?
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most likely in place of Arsenal as you were the worst of the top 4 last season
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I still maintain that we are a better team than Man City, ability wise and the way we work together. But our metal fragility is what let us down and Wenger needs to address it. Whilst I do think Wenger is not the most superlative decision maker around, I still think that we will do better than what most think. People genuinely forget that we commonly do well from August - January and from then onwards, our team seemingly seems to disappear. I think we will stay in the top four next season, but that won't suffice for Arsenal fans anymore because we should be showings signs of improvement; not recession.
Either way, let's just see what happens, come May 2012.
posted on 19/7/11
Samir_Nasri_is_our_Messi - ''Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves'' - Abraham Lincoln. Free Luka!
Again some interesting points but I have to disagree on pretty much everything.
Was your bad patch the worst in 57 years? I don't think it was. This is not subjective introspection, it was the statistically the worst start to a season we had in 57 years. That's how Hodgson's short tenure will be remembered.
The period that we're talking about is from mid January when Dalglish took over to the end of the season You played 17 games, won 7, drew 7 and lost 3. We played 18 won 10 drew 3 and lost 5. You can't call that a capitulation I'm afraid. A capitulation would be losing 9 out of 20 games which was what happened under Hodgson. So I can categorically state that our form under Hodgson was worse than any bad patch you suffered last season.
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Well they've hardly set the world alight and based on their individual displays, I would say that they were better off at the clubs they were at (bar Charlie Adam). I think the main issue is not with the players that you have bought, but the prices in which you acquired them
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No one is expecting them to set the world alight. That is not necessarily what is needed at the club. We need solid players who add depth to our squad, which is what Carroll, Downing, Adam and Henderson provide. I agree that the prices were inflated but that is what the market is. Man Utd, who have also been quite busy this summer have paid similar sums for Jones, Young and De Gea.
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They were...satisfactory in their respective positions except there were dozens of players who did better. I would not say any of these players were ''among the best''
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Unfortunately the stats would state otherwise. Adam was 9th in the top assists. Of those players ahead of him only one was a central midfield and that was Fabregas. Everyone else was either a forward, a wide player and Baines was a fullback. Adam therefore was only bettered by one person in his respective position. The same can be said about Downing, a wide midfielder; only Arshavin, Nani and Young created more assists. Again, it can be said that last season he was amongst the best in his respective position. And Carrol was joint 6th top scorer. Again only a handful of people who bettered him.
If we look at this subjectively then we will clearly disagree about who is best in each position. But if you look at it statistically, they were, last season, amongst the best in their respective positions.
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British players don't usually get sold abroad because they're not good enough for the top clubs or because their wages are extortionate and other clubs would not be willing to compete.
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Whilst i agree to some extent, there is also the Little Englander mentality which means that even if they were good enough, they won't move to a foreign country because of different languages, different cultures etc.
You cannot tell me that across the PL there are no English players who are good enough to play in Spain, Italy or Germany. That would simply be untrue. Rooney and Gerrard for example could play in any league and be successful, but the issue they have is that they'd have to learn another language. This is unfortunately an English trait. Those that have gone in the past, such as Rush, Hughes, Owen, came back because they couldn't settle in another country. To be fair the same could be said of Tevez wanting to leave Manchester because of the rubbish weather and because he still can;t speak English properly.
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And for the ''positions where he can cross'' and ''attempt to create opportunities'', he didn't mount to much. Carroll's main attribute is his aerial ability. Now, what other options do you have?
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Downing had a 24% success rate with his crossing. This doesn't sound great but it is actually amongst the highest in the league. Carroll's main attribute is his aerial ability but he also brings a good left foot to the table (see goals against Liverpool and Man City) and he has the ability to make space for others, purely because of his size he takes defenders with him creating space for others.
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I still maintain that we are a better team than Man City, ability wise and the way we work together.
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Now you're being subjective, as the table would tell us otherwise. We were the 6th best team in the league last season and you were the 4th. Man City were the third. You play nicer football, of that there is no doubt, but to say you are a better team than those that finished above you is untrue, as the table, for me, doesn't lie.
Anyway good luck next season. Out of the top 4 I have no issue with Arsenal, I like the way you play football and I like the fact that you are a sustainable club. I wish you well, as long as its not at the expense of taking 4th place from us.
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