I think the important point here is how you define 'better' or 'great'. I my opionion to be a great you have to have longevity and produce perfromances time in time out, and this is where Denamn falls down. Denman IMHO only ever porduced 3 really top drawer perfromances (2x Hennessey, 1x GC) along with some other very good ones. I honestly believe that in wining his GC he literally broke his own heart (despite a great hennessy following it). It took that much out of him to beat a off form Kauto (you also fail to mention that Kauto had an injury leading up to this GC as well, and having watched the race again i am more convinced than ever that Kauto was closing before hitting the last and stopping)

Kauto produced top performances for 7 years, even s a 11 year old his betfair chase and KG where exquisit rounds of jumping. His 2006/2007 season was a season like no other in living memory, he won the old roan over 2 1/2 miles by 21 lenghts, the betfair on his first attempt at 3 milles by 17, then dropped back to 2 miles to win the tingle creek by a pulling up 7 lengths, he then followed this by winning the King George by 8 lenghts and then the GC. Denaman would not have gotten close to KS in this season.

He won his first 4 KG by distances of 8, 11, 8 and 36 lenghts, the last a record distance. he then returned as an almost 12 yer old to win it for a 5th time. And his record of 16 group ones may never be beaten.
He out lasted rival after rival with Exotic Dancer, Denman, Long Run, etc... all coming and going and in the end being sent packing by Kauto. I also stand by the fact that in Kautos second GC even a fit Denman would not have gotten near him, it was as well has he jumped and travelled ever at Cheltenham.

Denman was a beast of a horse, but was a out and out plodding stayer around undulating tracks. Although a great handicap horse, and stayer he would ever have the class or pace to win a KG, and would certainly not win a tingle creek. Kauto had it all.

The greatness of a horse is not about abiltiy over one distance over one track (even it that is the GC) it is about longevity, versatility, heart and ultimate class. In these steaks kauto star wipes the floor with Denman. IMO.

Not really, think Denman had a few years on Kauto though didn't he. Kauto was still an exceptional horse so why all the negativity AS?

Nope KEIOC Kauto was less than a month older than Denman (19 March 2000 to the 17 April 2000).

I have merely given the facts of the matter and Paul Nicholls said there were NO excuses for Denman beating Kauto Star the way he did in 2008 !

What excuses are you going to offer for an "inferior" Denman still beating him again in 2010 and 2011 then ?

Denman was superior and proved it...if only he had never had the debilitating heart problem then Denman could have won 4 Gold Cups whilst Kauto Star would have won just the one !

Either way...Kauto Stars' final record of just 2 wins from 7 Cheltenham Festivals is nothing to write home about.

IF he had been the "true great" he is portrayed to be,then he would have had a far better record than that and no-one can argue on that score.

He will be rightly remembered at Kempton,however !

AS the gold cup is the blue ribboned but is not the be all and end all of NH racing. you are basically saying that that Denman is better around cheltenham at the GC distance. thats a very flimsy and short sighted argument.

As for the if he hadnt had a heart problem. IF is a very important word, its all conjecture. As i said he was only a month younger than, but he acheived less than kauto before and after the heart problem. winning one GC and finished ahead of Kauto in two others does not mean he was better. Cheltenham suits Denman to a tee, there could not be a track built better for him yet he only won one GC, it suited Kauto far less yet he managed to win two. Kempton was to Kauto what Cheltenham was the Denman, and compare the twos records at the respective tracks.

In cold hard facts, he won less GC, less Group 1's and acheived far far less as a whole. A good horse, but not in Kauto's class at all.

DDB...you are missing the point completely !

What I suggest you do is have a close inspection of Denman's races up to and including the 2008 Gold Cup,and the end of the 2007/8 season, when he was UNBEATEN over fences and compare Kauto Stars races over the same period where he was already beaten a few times and fell a couple of times too !

Denman was the better horse...no question...and despite his health problems was still good enough to come back and win another Hennessy Gold Cup Chase and beat Kauto Star twice more !

AS i think you are the one missing the point, health problems etc.. and what he COULD have acheived do not come into it. its about what was Actually acheived. and being unbeaten having ran in ony 3 group ones is not exactly a great record. In total he only won 4 Group ones and 2 Henessys as a chaser. Compare this to Kauto's record and you are totally wrong in your assesment.IMO.

Also if you want to compare like for like before the heart probelms. Denman had won 1 hennessey and 3 Group ones over fences including the gold cup, Kauto by the end of the same season (they were the same age) had won 2 tingle creeks, 2 KG, 2 Betfair Chases, and AON (Denman chase), and a Gold Cup, all group ones.

Your argument that Denman was better around Cheltenham may be valid, but to say he was a better horse overall is just plain wrong.

It is not plain wrong because Denman was unbeatable ove fences prior to his health problems...pure and simple !

Kauto Star was never unbeatable in his entire career and even pulled up twice !

Even the 2010 Gold Cup was billed as the "decider" between them and Denman had his measure when Kauto Star crashed out and confirmed it again the following season !

That is all there is to it !

A lot of what you say is conjecure and your opinion AS, i work in clear stats and facts. Again in cold hard stats, demans record is actually quite poor in comparison to Kautos.

And i will say this once more...a horses abilty does not soley revolve around Cheltenham, as everyone will agree it is a specialist course. Again, Denman may have been better around cheltenham but was never the better all round horse. Denman was basically a Cheltenham and Newbury specialist, as these where tough hard undulating left hand courses that suited his style. Kauto won in all types of courses, in all conditions, going ether handed and almost always in group ones.

The Facts:
Kauto won 12 more Grade One's,
Kauto won over £2,000,000 more prize money. Denman never won G1 over 2 mile, Kauto did Denman never won a G1 right handed, Kauto did Denman was rated 13lbs below Kauto AT THEIR BEST.

those are the FACTS, not opinon, they take in every aspect of a Horses ability, not just how good they were around one or two tracks over a specific distance.

The only facts that matter is they met 4 times and Denman beat him on 3 of those meetings !

I have no need to churn out Denman's obvious injury problems which prevented him ever scaling the even loftier heights expected of him !

He was the better steeplechaser.

In your opinion AS. the fact that you can offer nothing more than Cheltenham facts makes your argument very week.

Stats are facts and Kautos make Denmans look very poor. In fact the more i look at Denmas record he really was a one trick pony, great around slow undulating, left hand tracks, poor else where. He only one once at the top level away from Cheltenham (Lexus at Lepordstown which is also slow left handed). A newbury and Cheltenham course specialist and little more.

DDB..Please don't insult Denman !

His form was never the same and you know it !

He beat Kauto Star senseless in that epic 2008 Gold Cup and PROVED who the boss was there,whilst retaining his unbeaten steeplechase record !

E.O.S

We will have to agree to disagree my friend. You beleive greatness is acheived by being a very specific type of horse, whereas i believe it involves longevity, versatility, and class. Each to there own.

I enjoyed the debate.

Good debate DDB..and at least there were no "personal insults" involved.

Out of interest,what year did you first become interested in Horse Racing ?

Not my style AS, i am here to learn as much as anything. I beleive everyone has an opinon and is entitled to it.

Was always interested since a young age through my grandfather (am only 28 so not that long) and have great memories as very very young lad cheering on dessie while my cousin who also lived with my grandparents was a huge West Tip fan. Had an interest in the big meetings ever since and loved one man aswell, but i would say when i hit about 16/17 was when i took a proper interest. Horses like Best Mate, Moscow Flyer etc.. being my early heros at that time then obviously Kauto is a huge favourite of mine in recent years, mainly because I alsways put the xmas money on him on boxing day and was never let down haha. If pushed for a favouite i would go for Inglis Drever, just loved that wee horse, not the most talented by any means but by god had he some heart. and always had a soft spot for Well Cheif, a hugly talented and unlucky horse in my book.

Great memories DDB...and I am ,in fact,double your age...and my first memory was picking Nicolaus Silver,a grey horse,to win the 1961 Grand National and my father put the equivalent of 50 pence now to win 14 pounds at 28/1 ..quite a lot of money then !

I backed West Tip whe he won the National having unluckily unseated at Bechers the years before,and the date of that win was 5th April 1986 which I can never forget because my father died that day also and the money I won from backing 1st,3rd and 4th in the race meant absolutely nothing !

Our health is more important than anything else in this life and I hope you don't smoke either as that was the cause of his heart-attack...I never have luckily.

No i detest smoking AS, but all my family do, and one grandfather also went the same way as your father, my own father has serious heart problems from smoking and drinking as does my other grandfather so i am well aware of the dangers.

I have to say as much as you obviously dont rate the horse as highly as some, Kauto Star (along with Inglis) has taken my interest in racing to new levels, before him i had great interset in Best Mate and was lucky enough to witness his 3rd GC in person, however in hindsight his sad demise kind of killed my passion for the game a little and Kauto and Inlgis are the ones who revived it. I am a huge soccer and GAA fan and play both to decent levels and have been lucky enough to win a few awards and trophies both individually and as a team (nothing major) but i can honestly say that i have never had a feeling like watching Kauto win last years Betfair, even now i am almost in tears watching it. I just hope another horse comes along to make me feel the same.

I have also gotten more interested in the flat scene in recent times, although i am and always will be a NH follower first.

NH has always come first for me and Arkle was my boyhood hero obviously and I have a picture of him on my lounge wall and a photo of Arkle and Mill House jumping the last fence in the greatest Gold Cup ever run in 1964....check that race out on You Tube sometime and the 1965 race too to see what a "greyhound" Arkle was over fences.

His like will never be seen again in my lifetime...though I am very excited about Sprinter Sacre.

My dad has a lovely pic of Arkle in the house as well with all the big races he won listed either side. He wouldn't be a huge racing fan but always liked Arkle. I've watched as many of his races as I can find on the net and self looks to be a wonderful horse. But for obvious reasons I don't really feel a connection to him as he was way before my time.

Definitely Kauto for me

flat: sea the stars
hurdles: big bucks
fences: kauto star

in my life for me