Despite that Ivan for some reason though the punters are hardly flocking to these games too, despite genuine competition for something (although not the title admittedly) the fans just don't seem to be buying into it.

With Dundee being so far off the pace the bottom 6 is going to be a borefest until the end of the season.

If Dundee Utd lose tomorrow they may struggle mate eh?

I can see Utd making it though, I want them to as they are one of the better sides in the league, if they don't I suppose there's another derby for you but the rest of the game would be a non event as there would be no europe to play for.

Whoever finishes in 7th will no doubt end up with more points than whoever finishes 6th, 5th etc.

BTG - no they're not and that's because it's a false competition. I remember under Bonetti when Dundee reached the top six and the players and manager celebrated it like a title win. They were widely ridiculed for it.

Celebrating mediocrity (and finishing 6th is mediocre) isn't going to happen.

Personally I think the pricing structure and the fact so many games are all ticket don't help either. When I didn't have a season ticket a few years ago I would frequently decide on the morning of the match or even as late as 2 o'clock if I fancied going. With all ticket games often you can't buy a ticket at that stage, and then of course when it's pay at the gate you still have to fork out £20 for that mediocrity. No wonder people don't go.

rnr - truth be told I'm not convinced we'll make it. Looking at our fixtures I'm not convinced we'll get anything from ICT tomorrow. I'd bank on three points against Dundee, hope to get something at the two Saints (ideally a minimum of 4 points) and then it'll come down to the Aberdeen game which, given that it's at Tannadice and we've been honking at home, doesn't fill me with confidence.

Ivan you're mob better not let Aberdeen get in the top 6

With Dundee being so far off the pace the bottom 6 is going to be a borefest until the end of the season.

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that's why teams will be desperate to finish in the top 6. Anybody who does has a realistic chance of finishing 2nd or 3rd and to miss out would be hard on the clubs that don't make it.

Sometimes the splti can be good but the way it's working out this season it's gonna be denying teams a realistic chance of getting into europe and having to settle for playing in a pointless bottom 6 with no relegation battle.

I'll be just as upset as you are if we do let them in

I really doubt that Ivan, my mood is sometimes determined these days by the backpage of the Press and Journal.

Today, Craig Brown was greeting about a penalty they didn't get, set up my day so it did

Celtic
Inverness
Ross County
Motherwell
St Johnstone
Killie

ANyone barr me actually think that regardless of how the league is structured it make an iota of difference to attendences.
Fitba on the tele and gate prices are the real reasons. The sad part is that every fan you hear on the wireless shouting about ticket prices is the same one on at at transfer window time demanding his club make more signings

scotscelt - totally agree.

Obviously every fan sees a problem area and what's their club to get someone in, but I think if you ask most fans these days then they understand that financial prudence is the most important thing.

I personally would much prefer to see a United team running out with 11 players who have come through the youth structure at Tannadice rather than the overpaid mercenaries that we had from the mid 90s through to the middle of the last decade. Young boys need to be given chances in this financial climate and that's why we're seeing more and more young coaches being given chances as they're more likely to blood them.

I don't agree, if you had a competition that realistically 4 teams could win and in the closing weeks of the season those 4 teams were in contention attendances would go up.

Hibs got amazing crowds when in Division 1 because they had a chance of winning.

Morton this season are getting good crowds again because they are in with a chance of winning.

There is a reason that the NFL is the most succesful sports franchise in the world even though it doesn't have the global appeal of the EPL, it is because it fosters real competition.

To a certain extent what happens in Scotland isn't going to make much of a difference as the European league is coming, TV is king these days.

Ivan
Think its hit home big time across the board mate , a pity its historical debt that is hampering so many clubs but guess it comes with the terrritory. Saying that I think Scottish fitba as a whole is on the right track, barring offcourse the rediculess notion of having 42 senior clubs but thats a whole other issue

That goes without saying blue but the only feasable possibility of that comeing to pass would be Celtic goinig through what you just did which given how the club is run is bordering on not possible.
Once the damage is repaired I think we will have to accept that Celtic and Rangers dominatiing Scottish fitba will be the staus quo. Its happening Europe wide to be honest with only mega individual investment in some clubs in certain leagues being able to alter the balence

Because of the domination of Rangers and Celtic I'm more and more warming to the idea of those two clubs leaving for a Euro league.

It saddens me as I'd rather we worked together to make a better game here, and I've no doubt that losing Rangers and Celtic will hurt the rest of the clubs massively, but I'd rather have a competitive game than the snorefest we have now and the only way I can see to do that is for the Old Firm to leave.

I have long advocated a Euro league of some sort.The sad part is I would love nothing better than a strong Scottish league with 4 or 5 sides realistically in with a chance. I just cant envisage how it can come to pass though.
Only chance would need to involve amalgamation of some of the larger supported clubs which is way out there to say the least

The one aspect I hope never comes to pass that all American sports share with those here in Australia is a draft system. WHile it certainly levels the field of play it makes a mockery of the top clubs being so because they have the strongest supporter base.

PS to the above you end up with closed leagues and then the issue of tanking comes into play where by mid season the bottom half of any league is trying to finish as low as possible to get the most advantagous draft picks the following season.
Now that is really effed up and gives a whole new meaning to nothing to play for

The only way we could have successful and competitive leagues in Scotland is if we knocked the whole thing down and started again, which would never happen in a million years.

I'm talking getting rid of every club and starting new ones. Maybe 1 league of regional teams ie Highlands, Angus, Fife, Borders, Aberdeenshire, Perthshire, Lanarkshire etc.

But obviously that would never happen, so we're basically doomed to what we have now until the Euro league happens.

I don't really mind not being able to challenge for the title, it's the same in pretty much every other league in Europe these days.
If I did mind, I wouldn't support United, I'd support Celtic or Ra... well, just Celtic.

You are probebly as well placed to give an opinion as any on such. One would you ever considers both Dundee sides uniting ( used that word as a sweatener for you mate ) to form a singhle club and two do you think it could ever happen?

1. I'd rather it didn't happen. The attendances wouldn't work for the first 10-15 years until the next generation came through - the hardcore United/Dundee support wouldn't support a "City" team in my opinion.


2. It almost happened ten years ago. The new strips were at the printers.

Pretty much my own thoughts on the subject. Its actualkly where our great fitba heritage works against reform in Scotland. Some of the teams we call diddies in the lower leagues are some of the most historical clubs world wide.
It will be alright in the long run though
The biggest hurdle Scottish fitba has and the sad part is its not even real is having England as a direct neighbour. No other comparible league in Euroipe to ourselves compares itself to the EPL never mind being compared to it by the EPL itself. Granted that is mainly done by some in the Enlish press who just like to put the boot iin rather than those running the game itself.

I remember that Ivan is there any record of what the strip was going to be

Pretty well summed up scotcelt. QPR, currently bottom in the EPL, could easily support the entire Scottish league system outside of the Old Firm on their wage bill. If you include their transfer fees, they'd be able to support Newco too.
How the hell are we supposed to compete with that? Time to stop comparing ourselves to them I think.