Long Dong

While the England squad you showed isn't as good as Germany or Spain it's not 'tragic'. Just a lesser group of players and it hardly reflects anything regarding the money and foreigners coming into the Premier league.

I mean, 30 years ago England were probably at the same stage of the game in terms of how good or bad they were in comparison to the very best.

Hell, in the 70's when England had some of the best club sides in Europe and barely a single foreigner in there they didn't even qualify for a single world cup between 1971 and 1981.

You do raise some decent other points but you also miss out a lot of the positives of the Premier league.

Fair play Rob.

I still think we're hugely neglecting our youth development. Perhaps the difference between now and before is that the resources are there but the desire to develop youth is not.

Possibly but a couple of years back England won the Euro under 17 tournament, this season there were 3 English teams in the semis of the NextGen and the current England under 21 side is very highly rated.

I just think the oldies in the England side from the 'Golden' generation have been in the side for so long that the average England fan on the street has lost faith in them ever letting the youth get in the side.

You could say that we are neglecting our youth development but at the same time there are clubs out there that are trying to develop talent too. I would look at it and say that we just don't have the talent. Also, it's a style thing too. I don't care what people say, kick and rush is always going to be taught at a young age...

Greed is an English thing anyhow, the supporter in the UK are milked for all they are worth but that is because they will pay those prices. Its not the same in Europe, people will speak up.

An example being national matches not being on national television is an example of the greed.

It should be, without fail, on national TV. Not ESPN or Sky!

With regard to the national teams, one thing that is important to consider is the club's attitudes towards the national team and the identity of the football played in the respective leagues.

In Spain and Germany the clubs have a duty towards providing top players for the national team, in fact, one if the biggest factors in the redevelopment in German football was down to the lack of talent coming into the national team, culminated by their disastrous Euro 2000 and 2004 performances. This is not true in England, as the FA and the premier league are separate, as well as having private foreign owners, meaning the clubs are more important than the national team and the FA cannot force this mentality to change.

You also have the fact the Spanish and German clubs sides play a very similar brand of football to their national teams. This makes the step up from club to national team a lot smoother and easier to build a decent international side.

In England there's no identity to the football. Each team plays a completely different brand of football, especially at the top clubs.

You look at the golden generation, Beckham, Owen, Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney were all very good players. But their clubs sides all played in very different ways. That meant the football was disjointed when they joined the national set up. The crap managers that weren't able to build a well balanced team was also a big issue.

Good point Darren.

It's no coincidence that the greatest ever international side (Spain) had a massive nucleus of Barca players and a similar playing style like you said to the slow paced, passing style of La Liga.

I've often said on here that fans have to accept that the fast paced style of the PL is the antithesis to the type of football that wins World Cups in a hot summer and for England to be successful a lot of what makes the PL fun to watch will have to go.

To be honest, based on all the people I know they'd rather keep the PL how it is rather than compete for something like a World Cup every 4 years.

Hodgson is a terrible manager, is it surprising we are under performing? Not really.

Might help if more people got behind the National side as well.

That's true, Rob.

On the pace thing I do think European football and international football is speeding up a lot compared to what it was.

If you watch teams from Germany, Spain and Italy their club sides are playing at a far higher pace than they traditionally have, and this is true of their national teams.

In that respect, if England can focus on the technical development of players, we can still enjoy the pace of the prem that is so attractive to fans, but also produce players capable of playing better with the ball at their feet. This is basically what Germany have done.

This is the theory. But the points I made in my last post will still stand unless that changes.

Shaw isnt in the U21s hes got injured, robinson has replaced him btw

Move the eligible under 21s from the full squad down to that group, and the real problem quickly becomes apparent.

It isn't that clubs aren't developing enough young players at the moment, its that they weren't doing so 10 or even 5 years ago, so we're a football generation behind other countries.

Take all the Sky money, build centers of excellence in every county (smaller county's can share), invest in quality 5-a-side, 7-a-side, 11-a-side pitches throughout parks, schools etc throughout the country (all free to use). Large investment in coaching from grassroots level. Bring in a proper Respect campaign focusing on grassroots refs. Bring in incentives for clubs to invest in youth level.

Absolutely no foreign player caps. Our English players wont be good enough if they are give a free ticket to the first team, they need to be chosen over their foreign counterparts on merit alone.

Will never happen, but we need big changes if we want to be competitive on the national stage again.

English players wont be good enough if they are give a free ticket to the first team, they need to be chosen over their foreign counterparts on merit alone.
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I don't think that's always true.

Young English players, especially at top teams, are likely to improve if there's more chance of first team football.

From a club team point of view it doesn't matter, as they'll want to have the best players regardless of nationality, but from the international point of view there's some effect.

Danny Welbeck is an example of a player whose development is stagnating due to us signing RVP.

Look at Sturridge, he's getting games at a decent team and is now a better player for it.

These players may not end up as good as their foreign counterparts, but they'll certainly be better if they had more opportunities at the best clubs.

But we need them to end up as good as their foreign counterparts if we want to be competitive on the big stage.

Welbeck should take the opportunity to learn from RVP, ask him for help in training, and then push on to try and replace him in the first team.

Anyway, I think the main problem is at grassroots, not the PL.

I know what you're saying. But there are two sides of the coin to that argument.

I agree about the grassroots things. In Germany the clubs had regulations imposed on them with regard to the youth teams, this will not happen in the premier league as the FA are not allowed to.

I don't know if we neglect youth development or that we just don't teach them very well...

We don't seem to encourage the technical aspect of the game as much as other countries and we don't encourage individual flair either

We just dont teach them well, I see it time and time again little kids playing on a full size pitch with full size goals. The coaches shouting at the kids to 'get rid of it' and the parents screaming at them 'tackle him'. I even heard one father shout at his kid to 'break his legs' after he got nutmeged by another player

And the state of grass pitches are abismal, you are never gonna be able to keep the ball on the floor, and then have places like goals which have great 5-a-side pitches but charge like £50 for an hour.

In Spain and Germany the clubs have a duty towards providing top players for the national team, in fact, one if the biggest factors in the redevelopment in German football was down to the lack of talent coming into the national team, culminated by their disastrous Euro 2000 and 2004 performances.
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true. for euro 2004, voller called up schweinsteiger and podolski to the senior squad - that was considered a desperate act, as both were 19 and podolski in particular had only been playing senior football for six months. but with 9-10 players aged 30 or over in the squad, voller's options were limited.

i look at england now and for me, the worry isn't young talent - i think there is young talent coming through. cleverley, wilshere, jenkinson, chamberlain, smalling... by the age of 20-21, these players are/will be better than 90% of the players england has produced before at the same age.

for me, the worry is the gulf between england's key players and the supplementary players. in ashley cole, there's a world-class full-back on the left, and yet the best option on the right is glen johnson, who isn't even a guaranteed starter there for liverpool and is often criticised for his defensive sloppiness. if joe hart is injured, ben foster is the next best option - and he's conceded the most goals out of any club in the top ten this season. playing in front of rooney is a choice of defoe, who isn't even first choice for spurs, welbeck, who usually plays on the wing for united, and walcott, who's scored one goal in five years for england.

england does have a good set of 5-6 core players, and a large group of promising youngsters - but fleshing out a squad with kids isn't going to help england or them, because it simply means too much pressure, too soon. which is why england have had to make do with players like milner, parker, downing and carroll - players who wouldn't get anywhere near another national team squad.

KPPR, that is very true. The pool of English talent is very small.

People may disagree but a lot of that is to do with the fact most of the players in the league are foreign. It makes the league better, so I don't have a problem with that, but when the majority of the English players are not playing in the top league or at the top clubs it's going to severely limit the options of the international manager.

Hodgson and Neville have even said this.

The coaches shouting at the kids to 'get rid of it' and the parents screaming at them 'tackle him'. I even heard one father shout at his kid to 'break his legs' after he got nutmeged by another player
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He was a Stoke City scout

Young English players, especially at top teams, are likely to improve if there's more chance of first team football.
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i used to believe that myself, but i've changed my mind in the last few years.

a few years ago, we at arsenal had wenger saying that signing established talent would 'kill' a youngster's career. he does practice what he preaches, and as far as i recall he's never dropped a youngster for a new signing.

but the result is that it's bred a culture of complacency. there's no incentive for those players to prove themselves, and even if they don't mean to, they subconsciously take their foot off the gas.

i think the biggest example is clichy - for the first two years of his arsenal career, we had high hopes and there was no reason to doubt that clichy could handle himself. but he was twenty when cole left for chelsea, and he was the only senior left-back in the squad for five years after that - and in that time, there was a distinct drop in his performances, and a rise in the high-profile mistakes he was making.

again, i look at aaron ramsey, and i wonder how he's managed 90 games in the last two years - it certainly wasn't on merit, because his performances have been lacklustre at best.

Darren

While I agree the pool of talent is small surely that in itself isn't the reason England do badly in tournaments?

The pool of talent was surely higher than ever in the 70's yet England didn't even qualify for a single world cup.

I'd say it's more to do with a style of football that doesn't translate well to the international stage, not least over a small set of games in a summer tournament.

Add to that the high number of injuries that England often get around tournament time and the fact that there is no winter break and England or at least the FA don't make it easy for their national side in the way the Spanish and German FA's do.

Rob, I want saying that's why we've not been good at tournaments, just talking about the pool of talent in general.

KPPR, I guess that's just particular to your club rather than young players.

There's plenty of examples of young played at other clubs being given a chance and not getting complacent.

Ronaldo didn't have any competition for his spot but didn't get complacent. Now I know he's a special case. But young players will relish the opportunity and will become better players from playing more games.

there's also something else to consider - how much the fa pander to sky.

in other countries, you find that big fixtures are rearranged if there are international games coming up.

but in this country, you could have england playing on the wednesday, preceded by two top four teams playing each other on the sunday - surely this is detrimental to the players' fitness?

the only reason it happens here is because sky want to pull in viewers for their 'ford super sunday' and the fa are too weak to fight their own corner.

Welcome to the essence of capitalism.

Funny how people accept it's presence in virtually every other aspect of our lives, and yet when it comes to football it suddenly makes people seek the moral highground