Martial when you say no one can change your opinion, what that means is you are not here for debate.
It really isn't rocket science
the great afl
oh i see -- so senna liked to drive a car that was nervous as it twitched and danced all over the road as the chassis struggled to cope with his inputs as opposed to a balanced chassis that could cope with his inputs
in general it was his uncompetitive JPS chassis "s that he had to take to such extremes,
when he had a more competitve chassis the twitching , dancing of the car was not in evidence --
the great afl
prost and senna raced together at mclaren during 88 and 89 for a total of 32 races , prost outqualified senna 6 times out of the 32 -
--------- think we can safely say prost was giving it 100% during qualifying if he can outqualify senna 6 times --
Watch videos of him and Prost in the same machine, and see how much more on edge Senna was. You're really exaggerating about how 'twitchy' the car was. It didn't behave as it did because he went beyond what it could do, it behaved like that because Senna extracted the very maximum out of it. I simply do not understand how that qualifies for outperforming a car.
You cannot make a car go faster than it wants to go.
man unt devil
i am always here for F1 debate if you wish to contradict my F1 related opinions thats fine by me -- bring it on
--------- just dont expect me to agree with you if i believe i am correct about a F1 related point
think we can safely say prost was giving it 100% during qualifying if he can outqualify senna 6 times --
------------------------------------------------------------
What, because he outqualified the amazing Senna six times?
Martial, you have said in this article that no one can change your opinions so offering to debate someone is silly.
The point of debate is to air views and possibly formulate a new opinion. Since that is beyond your abilities, debating with you is not only pointless but is a waster of time
I find myself agreeing with that. I'm going around in circles here.
the great afl
i have seen prost and senna in the same car many , many , many times as i have the 88 and 89 seasons captured on disk ( recorded from vhs tape ) and in the respective cars (mp4/4 and mp4/5) there respective driving styles were extremely smooth and fluent -
the point about senna"s uncompetitive cars such as his JPS chassis"s was he had to drive way over the limit of what the chassis was comfortable with to put them on pole
---------- hence the nervous twitching and dancing of the car as was shown in the you tube clip i sent you --
the great afl
exactly --- prost outqualified somebody who is regarded as the fastest driver of all time 6 times -
------- hence to outqualify senna he would have to be giving it 100%
man unt devil
what do you want me to say --- i am open for debate and will gladly debate in a civil fashion with anybody and will often agree over a point , but if people dont agree with me and want to contradict my opinion that is up to them ,
i dont twist anybody"s arm to disagree with me, they do it of there own free will because they also think they are correct
---------- its called healthy debate
Enough is enough. That Lotus was not a bad car at all, stop making it out to have been an absolute monstrosity. Senna was known as a qualifying specialist, he got the most out of the car in qualifying. I'm pretty sure that his team-mates in both 1985 and 1986 were not too far behind him, which proves that the car was decent, and that Senna got more out of it than they did.
I must conclude that he did not outperform either of his Lotus'.
Martial, you cannot engage in debate when your opinions cannot be changed no matter what.
That's not engaging in debate.
the great afl
the lotus was never remotely competitive from 1980 up until there demise at the end of 1994 -
as for his team mates in his 3 years at lotus senna used to outqualify them by 2 , 3 , 4 . seconds at times and they ( his team mates )were also blown off in the races by many other teams thruout those 3 years every race --
The Lotus cars of '85 and '86 were very solid cars, if not particularly quick.
the great afl
" i must conclude he never outperformed either of his lotus "
when lotus were not remotely competitive from 1980 - 1994 and it was only senna that was getting poles and wins i think we can safely say senna was outperforming something
the great afl
the 85 and 86 cars were not even solid as the renault engine would very often go pop --
when lotus were not remotely competitive from 1980 - 1994 and it was only senna that was getting poles and wins i think we can safely say senna was outperforming something
------------------------------------------------------------
Yes. His team-mates.
This is obviously a waste of time, as neither of us are going to change our opinion. I quite frankly am bored with this.
Adios!
man unt devil
as i said -- i dont twist anybody"s arm to disagree with me , if people want to change my opinion about any F1 related opinion they need to do it with knowledge , logic and commonsense -
---------- anything else does not work on me
the great afl
very stange how lotus were not remotely competitive in anybody else"s hands for 15 years --
------------- except senna for 3 years
I think de Angelis performed well against Senna? Did Senna also not want Warwick as a team mate, or have I made that up?
Having said that I think Senna pushed the limits of his cars and beyond - especially in qualifying.
welshy
afternoon welshy ---
in reality senna battered elio de angelis and elio away from him after 85 , yeh its true senna did not want warwick at lotus for 86 because lotus were never capable of running competitive cars ,
senna"s train of thought was his own 1986 lotus would have been less competitive had warwick joined for 86 -
To get back with Gary Anderson's order of top teams this season I think he's got it spot on. Horner has made a bit of a fuss this season about the Red Bull struggling due to the tyres but they've got 2 cars on the podium twice and only Webbers penalty and tyre failure has stopped them from having both cars in the top 6 at all races.
Ferrari have looked strong as well with Massa letting them down a little. If it wasn't for Alonso's over eagerness in Malaysia and Massa's tyre issues in Bahrain they'd be right up there with Red Bull.
Mercedes have blown a bit hot and cold this season, struggling with tyres more than all those around them but being fairly steady. Hamiltons 3 podiums and Rosbergs 1 win shows the car has pace but until they fully solve their tyre issues they are a compromised team.
Lotus have started to let themselves down, whether thats down to the weather and tyre warming issues, or a lack of development I don't know. Kimi has 3 podiums plus a win but since Spain they've been overtaken by Mercedes in my eyes.
Force India have been strong and steady with their only real issue being in Malaysia and perhaps Sutil's rustiness. They've not been slow anywhere and are probably not far off overtaking Lotus unless they can buck up their form soon.
McLaren have been poor this season with their best result being a fifth place form Button and a sixth from Perez. They are well off Lotus and Force India, and getting dangerously close to the STR!
If I was to rank the cars relatively I'd say:
Red Bull
.
Ferrari
.
.
Mercedes
.
.
Lotus
Force India
.
.
.
McLaren
.
Toro Rosso
.
.
Sauber
.
Williams
.
Marussia
Caterham
Off all of them I think Lotus have the most to gain as if they can warm up their tyres like in the early races they'd be up there with Ferrari chasing the Red Bulls hard.
Lotus may have some other problems at the moment if they think there is a chance they wil lose Raikkonen to Red Bull. that won't help stabilise them.
I think Newey will cope with pretty much anything that the others can throw at Red Bull.
The only real threat at the moment is Ferrari, imo, and as they have no problems on the horizon they have time to focus on making their cars better.
Mercedes in particular have other problems to deal with at the moment.
But I will stick to my guns....
Both McLarens, top 8, Silverstone.
Oh, and although a bit off topic, because I like taking risks, I predict an Audi will win at Le Mans.
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Page 4 of 5
posted on 16/6/13
Martial when you say no one can change your opinion, what that means is you are not here for debate.
It really isn't rocket science
posted on 16/6/13
the great afl
oh i see -- so senna liked to drive a car that was nervous as it twitched and danced all over the road as the chassis struggled to cope with his inputs as opposed to a balanced chassis that could cope with his inputs
in general it was his uncompetitive JPS chassis "s that he had to take to such extremes,
when he had a more competitve chassis the twitching , dancing of the car was not in evidence --
posted on 16/6/13
the great afl
prost and senna raced together at mclaren during 88 and 89 for a total of 32 races , prost outqualified senna 6 times out of the 32 -
--------- think we can safely say prost was giving it 100% during qualifying if he can outqualify senna 6 times --
posted on 16/6/13
Watch videos of him and Prost in the same machine, and see how much more on edge Senna was. You're really exaggerating about how 'twitchy' the car was. It didn't behave as it did because he went beyond what it could do, it behaved like that because Senna extracted the very maximum out of it. I simply do not understand how that qualifies for outperforming a car.
You cannot make a car go faster than it wants to go.
posted on 16/6/13
man unt devil
i am always here for F1 debate if you wish to contradict my F1 related opinions thats fine by me -- bring it on
--------- just dont expect me to agree with you if i believe i am correct about a F1 related point
posted on 16/6/13
think we can safely say prost was giving it 100% during qualifying if he can outqualify senna 6 times --
------------------------------------------------------------
What, because he outqualified the amazing Senna six times?
posted on 16/6/13
Martial, you have said in this article that no one can change your opinions so offering to debate someone is silly.
The point of debate is to air views and possibly formulate a new opinion. Since that is beyond your abilities, debating with you is not only pointless but is a waster of time
posted on 16/6/13
I find myself agreeing with that. I'm going around in circles here.
posted on 16/6/13
the great afl
i have seen prost and senna in the same car many , many , many times as i have the 88 and 89 seasons captured on disk ( recorded from vhs tape ) and in the respective cars (mp4/4 and mp4/5) there respective driving styles were extremely smooth and fluent -
the point about senna"s uncompetitive cars such as his JPS chassis"s was he had to drive way over the limit of what the chassis was comfortable with to put them on pole
---------- hence the nervous twitching and dancing of the car as was shown in the you tube clip i sent you --
posted on 16/6/13
the great afl
exactly --- prost outqualified somebody who is regarded as the fastest driver of all time 6 times -
------- hence to outqualify senna he would have to be giving it 100%
posted on 16/6/13
man unt devil
what do you want me to say --- i am open for debate and will gladly debate in a civil fashion with anybody and will often agree over a point , but if people dont agree with me and want to contradict my opinion that is up to them ,
i dont twist anybody"s arm to disagree with me, they do it of there own free will because they also think they are correct
---------- its called healthy debate
posted on 16/6/13
Enough is enough. That Lotus was not a bad car at all, stop making it out to have been an absolute monstrosity. Senna was known as a qualifying specialist, he got the most out of the car in qualifying. I'm pretty sure that his team-mates in both 1985 and 1986 were not too far behind him, which proves that the car was decent, and that Senna got more out of it than they did.
posted on 16/6/13
I must conclude that he did not outperform either of his Lotus'.
posted on 16/6/13
Martial, you cannot engage in debate when your opinions cannot be changed no matter what.
That's not engaging in debate.
posted on 16/6/13
the great afl
the lotus was never remotely competitive from 1980 up until there demise at the end of 1994 -
as for his team mates in his 3 years at lotus senna used to outqualify them by 2 , 3 , 4 . seconds at times and they ( his team mates )were also blown off in the races by many other teams thruout those 3 years every race --
posted on 16/6/13
The Lotus cars of '85 and '86 were very solid cars, if not particularly quick.
posted on 16/6/13
the great afl
" i must conclude he never outperformed either of his lotus "
when lotus were not remotely competitive from 1980 - 1994 and it was only senna that was getting poles and wins i think we can safely say senna was outperforming something
posted on 16/6/13
the great afl
the 85 and 86 cars were not even solid as the renault engine would very often go pop --
posted on 16/6/13
when lotus were not remotely competitive from 1980 - 1994 and it was only senna that was getting poles and wins i think we can safely say senna was outperforming something
------------------------------------------------------------
Yes. His team-mates.
This is obviously a waste of time, as neither of us are going to change our opinion. I quite frankly am bored with this.
Adios!
posted on 16/6/13
man unt devil
as i said -- i dont twist anybody"s arm to disagree with me , if people want to change my opinion about any F1 related opinion they need to do it with knowledge , logic and commonsense -
---------- anything else does not work on me
posted on 16/6/13
the great afl
very stange how lotus were not remotely competitive in anybody else"s hands for 15 years --
------------- except senna for 3 years
posted on 16/6/13
I think de Angelis performed well against Senna? Did Senna also not want Warwick as a team mate, or have I made that up?
Having said that I think Senna pushed the limits of his cars and beyond - especially in qualifying.
posted on 16/6/13
welshy
afternoon welshy ---
in reality senna battered elio de angelis and elio away from him after 85 , yeh its true senna did not want warwick at lotus for 86 because lotus were never capable of running competitive cars ,
senna"s train of thought was his own 1986 lotus would have been less competitive had warwick joined for 86 -
posted on 16/6/13
To get back with Gary Anderson's order of top teams this season I think he's got it spot on. Horner has made a bit of a fuss this season about the Red Bull struggling due to the tyres but they've got 2 cars on the podium twice and only Webbers penalty and tyre failure has stopped them from having both cars in the top 6 at all races.
Ferrari have looked strong as well with Massa letting them down a little. If it wasn't for Alonso's over eagerness in Malaysia and Massa's tyre issues in Bahrain they'd be right up there with Red Bull.
Mercedes have blown a bit hot and cold this season, struggling with tyres more than all those around them but being fairly steady. Hamiltons 3 podiums and Rosbergs 1 win shows the car has pace but until they fully solve their tyre issues they are a compromised team.
Lotus have started to let themselves down, whether thats down to the weather and tyre warming issues, or a lack of development I don't know. Kimi has 3 podiums plus a win but since Spain they've been overtaken by Mercedes in my eyes.
Force India have been strong and steady with their only real issue being in Malaysia and perhaps Sutil's rustiness. They've not been slow anywhere and are probably not far off overtaking Lotus unless they can buck up their form soon.
McLaren have been poor this season with their best result being a fifth place form Button and a sixth from Perez. They are well off Lotus and Force India, and getting dangerously close to the STR!
If I was to rank the cars relatively I'd say:
Red Bull
.
Ferrari
.
.
Mercedes
.
.
Lotus
Force India
.
.
.
McLaren
.
Toro Rosso
.
.
Sauber
.
Williams
.
Marussia
Caterham
Off all of them I think Lotus have the most to gain as if they can warm up their tyres like in the early races they'd be up there with Ferrari chasing the Red Bulls hard.
posted on 16/6/13
Lotus may have some other problems at the moment if they think there is a chance they wil lose Raikkonen to Red Bull. that won't help stabilise them.
I think Newey will cope with pretty much anything that the others can throw at Red Bull.
The only real threat at the moment is Ferrari, imo, and as they have no problems on the horizon they have time to focus on making their cars better.
Mercedes in particular have other problems to deal with at the moment.
But I will stick to my guns....
Both McLarens, top 8, Silverstone.
Oh, and although a bit off topic, because I like taking risks, I predict an Audi will win at Le Mans.
Page 4 of 5