Haha, wouldn't surprise me with the way footy is these days.

Oh and berbaking

I do not believe you have been studying the Middle East

You have been trawling the net for years looking for BS to throw at anyone else other than a Muslim

Your analysis does not cover any atrocities by Sadam 9.11' no in depth analysis of al Qaeda, the Taliban, Muslim terrorists beheading people with machetes, Islamic extremists targeting civilians deliberate or any other murderous act these nut jobs carry out to betray their own religion, in the name loft their own religion

You do however spend an awful lot of time letting us know how bad the west is

United Red Macca i've noticed that you are calling many people terrorist apologists that have a different view point to you.Very adult of you
I could easily turn round and call you a Fascist or EDL,BNP apologist but i am taking it heart like yourself
Cretin

Guys.... it is 11/9 today.

Call a truce.

We have lost far too many young lives in conflicts we didn't need to be involved in over the last 30 years. Please, no more.
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You are talking about British soldiers, yes???
_____________________
So agree with this,why send poor British troops to their death to gain wealth for the Elites
What a sad loss of life

Guys.... it is 11/9 today.

Call a truce.
------------------------------------------------

Best thing said all day

Oh and berbaking

I do not believe you have been studying the Middle East

You have been trawling the net for years looking for BS to throw at anyone else other than a Muslim

Your analysis does not cover any atrocities by Sadam 9.11' no in depth analysis of al Qaeda, the Taliban, Muslim terrorists beheading people with machetes, Islamic extremists targeting civilians deliberate or any other murderous act these nut jobs carry out to betray their own religion, in the name loft their own religion

You do however spend an awful lot of time letting us know how bad the west is
--------------------------------------

I'll address each of these points now. And I hope (and this isn't aimed at you so much Macca) that everyone can keep it clean - i've been impressed with the discussion so far as it hasn't strayed into a slanging match/Cleverley vs Henderson debate!!

gimme 5 mins Macca mate, I rustling up a late night snack!!

I rustling up a late night snack!!
***

halal, I trust

Your analysis does not cover any atrocities by Sadam 9.11' no in depth analysis of al Qaeda, the Taliban, Muslim terrorists beheading people with machetes, Islamic extremists targeting civilians deliberate or any other murderous act these nut jobs carry out to betray their own religion, in the name loft their own religion
-------------------------------
Halal finished....

Firstly... I've mentioned Saddam's crimes a few times on this thread. It would be moral and intellectual dishonesty to fail to mention that they were done with US/UK support, however.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'in-depth' analysis of those groups? What do you want exactly? For me to state that they commit crimes and atrocities? Of course they do, but that wasn't what the thread was about. But let's be serious here... Most Islamic extremist groups have been backed, trained and supported by the West - the UK in particular it should be said. Those are simple facts, easily verified. Al Qaeda was born out of the Mujahideen, whom M16 and the CIA trained.

Also, take a look at every attack by a Muslim on western soil. All of them - Woolwich, 9/11, Boston, 7/7 - have something in common. All the perpetrators cite our policy (violence, sanctions, support for tyrannical regimes) as the primary motivation, not religion. I'm not in the slightest bit religious either, so I'm certainly not giving religion a free pass here. Facts are facts.

You can read security council memorandums from the 50's that discuss this. Eisenhower referred to middle eastern hatred of the west... The SC looked into it and concluded that yes, the people do indeed hate us. Most importantly they described why: Our policies (which i've outlined - as have others - previously in this thread, so won't list them again). Remember, it's important to understand the motives behind the crimes or else risk the further facilitation of such horrible actions.

You wrote:

You do however spend an awful lot of time letting us know how bad the west is
----------------------------------

I'll give an analogy. Suppose a Russian commissar in the 60's starts denouncing the crimes of a far away land. For arguments sake, let's pretend Jamaica have been committing atrocities in the Caribbean. Our Russian commissar may indeed be correct about the crimes - and they may indeed be very awful - but do we salute his moral courage? Certainly not. We'd ask why he wasn't focusing and pointing out the crimes of his own country. The ones we do admire and respect are the Russian dissidents. The ones inside Russia who are speaking out against their government's own crimes. It is vastly more courageous, brave, difficult and - in the case of 60s Russia - dangerous, to point these things out than it is to point to someone else's crimes in a far away land. It's the most basic, elementary moral principles being applied correctly.

Further to that point. The Zimbabwean government for example is not in any way accountable to me or you. I can't have much - if any - effect on Zimbabwean policy. I bare no responsibility for their actions. I do however have some responsibility for our government's actions, given that we supposedly live in a democratic country (it's hardly a democracy in any true or meaningful sense, but that's another discussion for another time). Those actions are carried out in yours and my name. That's why I focus on our crimes (which also happen to be infinitely worse in scale that anyone else's crimes) and not so much on others'.

This is the point though, we don't have any bearing on our governments actions, we had absolutely no say whatsoever in the decision to go to war in iraq just as much as we didn't have a say in not doing anything about syria, the main difference though is that we don't as civilians tend to get politicised or ideologically imbalanced enough to blow up our fellow countrymen for the most part.

I'm tired of western policies being used as a scapegoat for rubbish behaviour, with it being a stick to beat us with every time we try and point out something bad and then being a poor excuse for blaming the actions of the people who came before us for doing nothing now.

It's not like we haven't asked the united nations (if ever there was a contradiction of terms, that's definitely high on the list) to do something about it, diplomacy hasn't worked, mincing around with weapons inspectors getting shot at will get us nowhere, if the syrian government had nothing to hide then they'd let the UN in to try and help keep peace, they choose not to, it speaks volumes that instead of looking for a peaceful settlement that assad would rather destroy his own cities and massacre children.

"This is the point though, we don't have any bearing on our governments actions, we had absolutely no say whatsoever in the decision to go to war in iraq just as much as we didn't have a say in not doing anything about syria,"
- Yet we try to push 'our' governing system onto other countries.
"the main difference though is that we don't as civilians tend to get politicised or ideologically imbalanced enough to blow up our fellow countrymen for the most part."
- I would say that a certain Irish group had done this not too long ago. There has been cases of people doing such acts but not in large quantities of course in Europe. I think the key difference is that we actually have law and order (take a look at what is happening in Egypt, if we protested, the worse we could expect is nothing compared to that). If I am wronged by the police, I do have a chance of going through the courts to get it right. I countries like Suadi, Egypt, Iraq, etc. that isn't the case. If the police do something, the best thing I can hope for is just ending up being released and alive.

"I'm tired of western policies being used as a scapegoat for rubbish behaviour, with it being a stick to beat us with every time we try and point out something bad and then being a poor excuse for blaming the actions of the people who came before us for doing nothing now."
- Western policy has caused some of the problems so people will point it out and double guess what is the actual intent rather than the retoric being spoken.

" if the syrian government had nothing to hide then they'd let the UN in to try and help keep peace, they choose not to, it speaks volumes that instead of looking for a peaceful settlement that assad would rather destroy his own cities and massacre children."
- That worked out so well for Iraq. Plenty see the UN as a tool for the powerful to keep others down and in their place. If it truely were fair we would have seen action taken on plenty of countries sooner.

The Rez Devils/Berbaking

What's the solution

If you had read a couple of my earlier posts on the subject, you will see I actually stated that 99% of us would prefer to live in peace but the elitest powermad greedy 1% at the helm are the ones that do not

I also stated clearly that to me, Religion is incidental to murderous cretins that want to carry our violent sickening acts. Like the hacking to death of Lee Rigby when he was just minding his own business.

After reading some of your posts, particularly you Rez devils, we are probably not that far apart in our thinking.

So tell me

What do we do about Syria now or the middle East as a whole?

I'm sure you have read today that the US are now all for a diplomatic solution to Syria, that there has been a report that both sides have commited war crimes etc

Another answer I would like to know is where the hell did the Syrian regime get chemical weapons from? Could it be what VC suspected, from Iraq just before the coalition invaded?

And the Middle East? Is education the answer? From what I have read, Jewish and Islamic children have the hatred ingrained in them from very young ages. How do we change that?
It is certainly possible for Jews and Muslims to live side by side. They do in this country so is it a case the leaders of Palestine and Israel will never allow this?

Personally, I don't think there is a solution because there are just too many people that do not want one

What annoys me about terrorist apologists like yourself is comments like
Sad dam may have been a madman.
There is no may about it
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I’m a terrorist apologist? WTF have you been smoking?

The expression “may have been” is frequently uised to mean “although”, as in
“UnitedRedMacca may be able to write, but he can’t read”.

It does not, in that context,, denote any doubt.

And the Middle East? Is education the answer? From what I have read, Jewish and Islamic children have the hatred ingrained in them from very young ages. How do we change that?

...................

And there is the problem. Take catholics and protestants in England and the USA, they are totally indifferent to each other.

Then you have Scotland and NI, and we have this utter hatred of each other that has been passed down form generation to generation for centuries.

Kem

I'd just got back from the pub last night. I'd had a few pints with the lads watching the footie and clearly misunderstood you

I've just re-read your post and you make some very pertinent points and you clealry show less bias than one or two have shown on this thread imho

Apologies

Agreed VC

And like Kem said, when looking at situations like Afhanistan, Iraq and now Syria, we can criticise the decisions our leaders make but my God, I'm sure glad I don't have to make them

I'd just got back from the pub last night. I'd had a few pints with the lads watching the footie and clearly misunderstood you
===============================================
Fair enough.
(I was a bit mystified, but that explains it)

The UN is a toothless tiger. Remember Kosovo, and the Baltic States, the old Yugoslavia,( what a nice place for a holiday)? the atrocities unfolding day after day, while blue-helmeted UN soldiers looked on, helplessly, the "ethnic cleansing" when centuries of fermenting hatred and suspicion were able to be let loose?
Every continent and culture is capable of depths that most of us don't want to visit, and yet most of us, given the right ingredients, are capable of.
Government should not be whipping up more of this hate and warmongering in the name of religion, oil, land-grab, culture, corporate power, posturing, mine is bigger than yours.
Children, like yours and mine are dying daily. That's the bottom line. No excuses, no politics, stop now, you bloody fools.