comment by Spurtle2 (U1608)
posted 4 minutes ago
I'm sorry but however good we think these youngsters are they're just not at the same level as the youngsters from the top countries.
They'll be hyped up and turn out to be no better than Wilshere is right now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing like a sweeping statement to round off a debate.
comment by The_Red_Cognoscente (U9741)
posted 3 minutes ago
By dint of that fact : 'the future is dark and full of terrors'.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean come on, if players like Zaha or Kane were that good, they'd be playing a lot more matches for their clubs.
'm sorry but however good we think these youngsters are they're just not at the same level as the youngsters from the top countries.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps, but have they ever been?
Was a young Gerrard really as good as a young Ronaldinho?
A young Owen as good as a young Ronaldo (fat) ?
A young JT as good as a young Cannavaro?
Chris, yeah I think you are right.
Many Arsenal fans seem to be talking about you spending big on this player and that player but I really don't see that being the case.
Yes you got Ozil, but let's be honest, that was an exception to the rule.
Because on one hand it was fortune that saw you being able to attract that calibre of player and it was also the first time you were able to really spend that much money.
So when I read some Arsenal fans saying "let's sign Reus, Gundogan, Costa et al.," and have to compete for wages and transfers with the big boys I do wonder whether they're aware that this is Arsene Wenger and Arsenal FC they're talking about here not Chelsea or Man City - it's just not their style.
comment by Spurtle2 (U1608)
posted 2 minutes ago
I mean come on, if players like Zaha or Kane were that good, they'd be playing a lot more matches for their clubs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Deleufeu (sic) is considered one of the best Spanish prospects but he's playing at Everton of all teams right now.
Perhaps, but have they ever been?
Was a young Gerrard really as good as a young Ronaldinho?
A young Owen as good as a young Ronaldo (fat) ?
A young JT as good as a young Cannavaro?
--------
Nope. And that's why we should learn to keep a lid on the hype. Let them prove they can be as good as the world's best then sing their praises.
Darren, in the past a bread and butter Wenger signing would of been a £10m-£12m 'half proven' player.
I'm talking about the likes of Giroud, Gervinho, Koscielny, Mertesacker, Sagna and going back further Eduardo, Rosicky etc. Not top class players, but solid players who he tries to get the best out of.
You'd of course always have the £1m-£3m youngster like Song, Denilson and co.
I think we will see the same type of signings, but perhaps financially more. So instead of a £12m striker of Giroud from France, we'd see a £20m striker from Spain.
We will never come close to spending what City have in the past few season i.e. net spend of £100m per window.
Nope. And that's why we should learn to keep a lid on the hype. Let them prove they can be as good as the world's best then sing their praises.
==========================================
Agree, but does that sell papers?
I think most fans are realistic, it's the 'uneducated' who will read a piece on how this young promising guy Kieron Dyer will become as good as any winger in the world and believe it who tend to get carried away.
I'd say from Robbs list, we might see 3 or 4 who will become genuinely quality players, and the rest will range from decent to an utter failure.
comment by Spurtle2 (U1608)
posted 5 minutes ago
Perhaps, but have they ever been?
Was a young Gerrard really as good as a young Ronaldinho?
A young Owen as good as a young Ronaldo (fat) ?
A young JT as good as a young Cannavaro?
--------
Nope. And that's why we should learn to keep a lid on the hype. Let them prove they can be as good as the world's best then sing their praises.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Players don't have to be as good as Ronaldinho to win world cups.
The likes of Owen, Terry and Gerrard had the talent to win world cups but were mismanaged at their peaks.
Deleufeu (sic) is considered one of the best Spanish prospects but he's playing at Everton of all teams right now.
------
On loan from Barcelona I see. Barcelona are full of quality already. It's understandable if they wouldn't use him.
On the other hand, what does it say about Zaha that United paid a lot for him, have rubbish wingers, and he still can't get a game?
Players don't have to be as good as Ronaldinho to win world cups.
The likes of Owen, Terry and Gerrard had the talent to win world cups but were mismanaged at their peaks.
=========================================
Indeed, my point was just about the quality lessening compared to the top nations.
If by mismanaged, you mean that whichever England manager picked the team and positions for the players poorly, then I agree.
Shame with Hodgeasauras at the helm nothing has changed.
Chris H
I agree maybe 3 or 4 from that list. Probably won't be enough in the long run, and I doubt we're going to see them become top, top players.
Robb
They may have, but it certainly helps having quality as good as Ronaldinho and others he was playing around.
Only way we're going to ensure we have the best chances to win them in the future is if we keep producing that kind of quality and more. At the moment I wouldn't say any of our youngsters look as good as even Owen, Gerrard or Terry, on first impressions.
Agreed, Chris. But I was talking more about the calibre of player as opposed to the net spend.
Just because Arsenal signed Ozil doesn't mean that they will be able to compete for the very best players with the likes of United, Chelsea, City, Bayern, PSG, Monaco, Real and Barca.
And I think this seems to have gone over a few people's heads (obviously not everyone).
Okay, right now the senior national side have a few oldies playing but i'm certain that Lampard, Gerrard and Cole will all retire after the world cup and the real excitement can begin.
------------------
Gerrard and Cole won't imo
http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-Features/Features/2013/Sep/james-wilson-tipped-for-the-top-by-nicky-butt.aspx
You forgot this guy
Gonna be top draw this fella
Macca
Gerrard has already said he'll go after the world cup and with the likes of Baines, Gibbs and Shaw I can't see Cole sticking around.
When did Gerrard say that Robb? You got a link? I would have thought that would have been big news and I haven't heard a thing about it
Oh Robb
Have a look at that James Wilson link and check out the difference between all but one of his goals from open play and the two penalty kicks
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1858150-steven-gerrard-confirms-he-may-retire-after-brazil-world-cup
As for Wilson, yeah, I forgot about him but yes, the guy is going to be a star
Wilson looks a real talent. I hope he makes it at United, I love a striker that can dribble with the ball.
How can you say the media are anti-English in terms of your chances? What usually happens is they're wildly optimistic and can't be satisfied with being a reasonable football nation and then when it blows up in their face they start moaning about how everything is terrible: because they are only a reasonable football nation.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/2641675.stm
Example.
Marcelino
Of course the media are anti-English for 51 weeks of the year until that one week before a tournament where they suddenly go all patriotic.
In the build up to Euro 96 the players were all across the papers for the dentist chair incident. Just a few weeks back before a massive game in Ukraine the newspapers did a hatchet job on Townsend with 'baloon-gate' even though the story had been waiting in their baskets for months.
I could give you dozens more articles but while I thought England weren't that bad at all last night the newspapers are all saying about how bad England were.
It depends on what your ambitions are: if you want to view England as a steady quarter-final team then you will be optimistic about the future; if you are stuck in the old tribal empire mentality then you will be moaning about England constantly.
Those young players you list are decent, but are any of them an improvement on what you already have? Let's not forget the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Ferdinand, Cole etc were supposed to be part of a so-called golden generation.
And I stand by my point, most of the English are not rational in how they assess their football team. It's almost as if after a win you're going to win the World Cup and after a defeat you're not going to get out of the group. Furthermore, the amount people judge players based on club loyalties holds your national team back. Face it, what makes the Premier League successful is what holds the national team back.
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026) posted 14 minutes ago
Wilson looks a real talent. I hope he makes it at United, I love a striker that can dribble with the ball.
----------------
darren
Have a look at the video link I posted and check out the difference between all but one of his open play goals and the 2 penalties
(Seeing as Robb couldn;t be bothered)
Sign in if you want to comment
The future is bright for England
Page 3 of 4
posted on 20/11/13
comment by Spurtle2 (U1608)
posted 4 minutes ago
I'm sorry but however good we think these youngsters are they're just not at the same level as the youngsters from the top countries.
They'll be hyped up and turn out to be no better than Wilshere is right now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing like a sweeping statement to round off a debate.
posted on 20/11/13
comment by The_Red_Cognoscente (U9741)
posted 3 minutes ago
By dint of that fact : 'the future is dark and full of terrors'.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 20/11/13
I mean come on, if players like Zaha or Kane were that good, they'd be playing a lot more matches for their clubs.
posted on 20/11/13
'm sorry but however good we think these youngsters are they're just not at the same level as the youngsters from the top countries.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps, but have they ever been?
Was a young Gerrard really as good as a young Ronaldinho?
A young Owen as good as a young Ronaldo (fat) ?
A young JT as good as a young Cannavaro?
posted on 20/11/13
Chris, yeah I think you are right.
Many Arsenal fans seem to be talking about you spending big on this player and that player but I really don't see that being the case.
Yes you got Ozil, but let's be honest, that was an exception to the rule.
Because on one hand it was fortune that saw you being able to attract that calibre of player and it was also the first time you were able to really spend that much money.
So when I read some Arsenal fans saying "let's sign Reus, Gundogan, Costa et al.," and have to compete for wages and transfers with the big boys I do wonder whether they're aware that this is Arsene Wenger and Arsenal FC they're talking about here not Chelsea or Man City - it's just not their style.
posted on 20/11/13
comment by Spurtle2 (U1608)
posted 2 minutes ago
I mean come on, if players like Zaha or Kane were that good, they'd be playing a lot more matches for their clubs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Deleufeu (sic) is considered one of the best Spanish prospects but he's playing at Everton of all teams right now.
posted on 20/11/13
Perhaps, but have they ever been?
Was a young Gerrard really as good as a young Ronaldinho?
A young Owen as good as a young Ronaldo (fat) ?
A young JT as good as a young Cannavaro?
--------
Nope. And that's why we should learn to keep a lid on the hype. Let them prove they can be as good as the world's best then sing their praises.
posted on 20/11/13
Darren, in the past a bread and butter Wenger signing would of been a £10m-£12m 'half proven' player.
I'm talking about the likes of Giroud, Gervinho, Koscielny, Mertesacker, Sagna and going back further Eduardo, Rosicky etc. Not top class players, but solid players who he tries to get the best out of.
You'd of course always have the £1m-£3m youngster like Song, Denilson and co.
I think we will see the same type of signings, but perhaps financially more. So instead of a £12m striker of Giroud from France, we'd see a £20m striker from Spain.
We will never come close to spending what City have in the past few season i.e. net spend of £100m per window.
posted on 20/11/13
Nope. And that's why we should learn to keep a lid on the hype. Let them prove they can be as good as the world's best then sing their praises.
==========================================
Agree, but does that sell papers?
I think most fans are realistic, it's the 'uneducated' who will read a piece on how this young promising guy Kieron Dyer will become as good as any winger in the world and believe it who tend to get carried away.
I'd say from Robbs list, we might see 3 or 4 who will become genuinely quality players, and the rest will range from decent to an utter failure.
posted on 20/11/13
comment by Spurtle2 (U1608)
posted 5 minutes ago
Perhaps, but have they ever been?
Was a young Gerrard really as good as a young Ronaldinho?
A young Owen as good as a young Ronaldo (fat) ?
A young JT as good as a young Cannavaro?
--------
Nope. And that's why we should learn to keep a lid on the hype. Let them prove they can be as good as the world's best then sing their praises.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Players don't have to be as good as Ronaldinho to win world cups.
The likes of Owen, Terry and Gerrard had the talent to win world cups but were mismanaged at their peaks.
posted on 20/11/13
Deleufeu (sic) is considered one of the best Spanish prospects but he's playing at Everton of all teams right now.
------
On loan from Barcelona I see. Barcelona are full of quality already. It's understandable if they wouldn't use him.
On the other hand, what does it say about Zaha that United paid a lot for him, have rubbish wingers, and he still can't get a game?
posted on 20/11/13
Players don't have to be as good as Ronaldinho to win world cups.
The likes of Owen, Terry and Gerrard had the talent to win world cups but were mismanaged at their peaks.
=========================================
Indeed, my point was just about the quality lessening compared to the top nations.
If by mismanaged, you mean that whichever England manager picked the team and positions for the players poorly, then I agree.
Shame with Hodgeasauras at the helm nothing has changed.
posted on 20/11/13
Chris H
I agree maybe 3 or 4 from that list. Probably won't be enough in the long run, and I doubt we're going to see them become top, top players.
Robb
They may have, but it certainly helps having quality as good as Ronaldinho and others he was playing around.
Only way we're going to ensure we have the best chances to win them in the future is if we keep producing that kind of quality and more. At the moment I wouldn't say any of our youngsters look as good as even Owen, Gerrard or Terry, on first impressions.
posted on 20/11/13
Agreed, Chris. But I was talking more about the calibre of player as opposed to the net spend.
Just because Arsenal signed Ozil doesn't mean that they will be able to compete for the very best players with the likes of United, Chelsea, City, Bayern, PSG, Monaco, Real and Barca.
And I think this seems to have gone over a few people's heads (obviously not everyone).
posted on 20/11/13
Okay, right now the senior national side have a few oldies playing but i'm certain that Lampard, Gerrard and Cole will all retire after the world cup and the real excitement can begin.
------------------
Gerrard and Cole won't imo
posted on 20/11/13
http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-Features/Features/2013/Sep/james-wilson-tipped-for-the-top-by-nicky-butt.aspx
You forgot this guy
Gonna be top draw this fella
posted on 20/11/13
Macca
Gerrard has already said he'll go after the world cup and with the likes of Baines, Gibbs and Shaw I can't see Cole sticking around.
posted on 20/11/13
When did Gerrard say that Robb? You got a link? I would have thought that would have been big news and I haven't heard a thing about it
posted on 20/11/13
Oh Robb
Have a look at that James Wilson link and check out the difference between all but one of his goals from open play and the two penalty kicks
posted on 20/11/13
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1858150-steven-gerrard-confirms-he-may-retire-after-brazil-world-cup
As for Wilson, yeah, I forgot about him but yes, the guy is going to be a star
posted on 20/11/13
Wilson looks a real talent. I hope he makes it at United, I love a striker that can dribble with the ball.
posted on 20/11/13
How can you say the media are anti-English in terms of your chances? What usually happens is they're wildly optimistic and can't be satisfied with being a reasonable football nation and then when it blows up in their face they start moaning about how everything is terrible: because they are only a reasonable football nation.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/2641675.stm
Example.
posted on 20/11/13
Marcelino
Of course the media are anti-English for 51 weeks of the year until that one week before a tournament where they suddenly go all patriotic.
In the build up to Euro 96 the players were all across the papers for the dentist chair incident. Just a few weeks back before a massive game in Ukraine the newspapers did a hatchet job on Townsend with 'baloon-gate' even though the story had been waiting in their baskets for months.
I could give you dozens more articles but while I thought England weren't that bad at all last night the newspapers are all saying about how bad England were.
posted on 20/11/13
It depends on what your ambitions are: if you want to view England as a steady quarter-final team then you will be optimistic about the future; if you are stuck in the old tribal empire mentality then you will be moaning about England constantly.
Those young players you list are decent, but are any of them an improvement on what you already have? Let's not forget the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Ferdinand, Cole etc were supposed to be part of a so-called golden generation.
And I stand by my point, most of the English are not rational in how they assess their football team. It's almost as if after a win you're going to win the World Cup and after a defeat you're not going to get out of the group. Furthermore, the amount people judge players based on club loyalties holds your national team back. Face it, what makes the Premier League successful is what holds the national team back.
posted on 20/11/13
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026) posted 14 minutes ago
Wilson looks a real talent. I hope he makes it at United, I love a striker that can dribble with the ball.
----------------
darren
Have a look at the video link I posted and check out the difference between all but one of his open play goals and the 2 penalties
(Seeing as Robb couldn;t be bothered)
Page 3 of 4