geniusgreaves
Sorry I misunderstood
I am personally a 4-4-2 hater so I favour the 4-3-3. 4-3-3 has it's problems defensively but in terms of creativity it is much better.
It comes as no surprise to me that Barcelona who IMO are the best team in world football deploy 4-3-3.
4-4-2 simply won't work unless you have natural wide players i.e Ashley Young, Nani, Valencia (Man Utd). Bale, Lennon (Spurs). Arshavin, Walcott, Gervinho (Arsenal). Downing, Suarez (Liverpool).
I agree I think 4 3 3 is the best formation. It was the crown jewel of our success like many other teams. 4 4 2 is so flat, I can see feel it when playing Fifa.
Bubbles, agree with you on the wide men....................you need two fast wingers and then Torres might score........................however whilst you play 4-3-3 other teams will play either 4-4-2 or even 4-5-1 to over run you in the middle of the park.
Screen (U8522)
Torres has looked sharper than Drogba in pre-season.
I personally think on their day they are both the best strikers in the Prem along with Rooney.
If you had asked me 3 or even 4 years ago I would have said Torres was the better player by a mile, but he has stagnated a bit since the last 2 years or so but is getting back to his best.
Football is about having strength and depth. I could easily say Berbatov is wasted on the bench as well, but football is a squad game and Drogba will get his chance.
geniusgreaves (U1302)
The problem I have with Chelsea is not the formation it is the tempo and the speed of the build up play.
As much as it pains me to say this other than Chelsea (as they are my team) I enjoy watching United and Spurs more than any other team in the Prem simply because the build up play is so fast and often I've seen Modric, Lennon and Bale just sweep defences of their feet simply because the tempo has been too quick.
At Spurs and United there is a huge emphasis on counter attacking football and it comes naturally to them whereas it doesn't with us. AVB likes that and that is why I think he has favoured Bosingwa at RB position.
Arsenal when playing away from home play some great football just with no end product, at Emirates I find their build up to slow.
Berbatov is on the bench because rooney and hernandez is more successful and beba mite leave. At the end of the day its all down to success and playing Drogba and Torres is the best way for you lot to achieve success. each can win games on their own. I rate AVB but why he decided to play one at a time is beyond any logic
Screen
Everyone has difference in opinion, sometimes you need the right balance, as I've said, if Torres and Drogba both played we would have to have one less player up front. That would mean our creativity would have to come from midfield and we don't have any creative midfielders.
As much as I like Kalou, he isn't consistent enough to play in that position, same for Malouda to a lesser extent.
fair enough
Im sure AVB will sort it out soon but not too soon
Screen
You can't have watched too many of our games last season
Watching Ancelotti try to get a Torres-Drogba partnership going with such horrific results...
That home defeat to Liverpool had me almost in tears
Torres has looked infinitely sharper and more confident since AVB arrived, and I don't think this is simply due to formation changes
Under Ancelotti he was played wrongly and his confidence was shattered
When I look back I don;t see how we could not not have ditched Carlo, everyone's confidence was absolute rock bottom and he offered us absolutely no tactical inspiration
@ The return of click for free beer_Free Luka from small club mediocrity (U3630)
I dont rate Ancelotti, torres was off form and havent settled in well. All im saying is that torres drogba partnership has the potential to be the most destructive CF pairing in the history of PL and Im sure thats why Roman bought him. It should theoretically work. Drogba with the muscle and Torres with the guile. Its up to a competent manager to figure out the correct formula .
I always saw Torres as the signing to replace Drogs
It was a panic signing, we were looking in big danger of crashing out the top 4 altogether which would have been disastrous
As for Ancelotti
Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one who thinks we made 100% the right decision in firing him
Absolutely awful tactically. Same bloody tactics week in week out. Tactical pragmatism was swapping around Anelka and Kalou in the starting eleven
Players confidence was rock bottom
But what really riles me about the Ancelotti era is the gutless European performances. For a manager brought in to conquer Europe we were lamentable in Europe. Failed to register a home goal in the knockout stage, it was painful seeing him so utterly destroyed by Mourinho and Fergie
We looked further away than ever from winning the competition udner his stewardship, offered no inspiration, no leadership
As Bubbles said, had we gone into today's game with Carlo in charge we';d likely have lost
Click
I will always like Carlo and be thankful of what he did for us but I was as much against his initial appointment as I was his sacking.
The Sunderland game upset me and the Liverpool game even moreso, but the final straw for me was Arsenal away and United away in the CL.
The 5 games that IMO got Carlo the sack were:
1. Liverpool (Home)
When he completely changed the team to accomodate Torres straight away against his old club as well as sub him not only did that ruin Torres but that would have no doubt upset Anelka who gave what was the best performance I have ever seen from him in a Chelsea shirt, Kalou was equally as impressive IMO. The least they deserved was to be given a chance to do it again with the same formation.
2. United (Home) - CL
That has got to be the most gutless uninspiring performance I have ever seen from a Chelsea team in the CL. Carlo tried to use the 4-4-2 in the first half of the league game against United and it failed, as soon as we reverted to 4-3-3 we turned the game around and won. I can't see how Carlo didn't learn from that.
3. Sunderland Home
No disrespect to Sunderland but I don't think they ever have or ever will play an away game as easy. At times I had to pinch myself to actually believe that was us playing. Even if that were Barcelona that would have annoyed me, but Sunderland travel poorly and we made an above average team look like world beaters, what was worse was that the 0-3 scoreline actually flattered us!
4. United Away (League)
The way he dealt with Luiz and further humiliated him by taking him off at Half time for me was completely wrong. it showed he had no faith in him, for a young player that must have been shattering. The game was lost once he lost it with Luiz after that IMO.
5. United away (CL)
Every Chelsea fan leaving OT was furious Drogba didn't start. On the coach on the way back one fan even asked both United and Chelsea fans whether Drogba should have started and we all unanimously said yes. You should protect your players like SAF and Wenger would. Let's face it Torres was torn to shreds by the OT crowd. Had Drogba started I'm certain we would have gone through even with the 1-0 deficit in the first leg.
The earliest indications that Carlo couldn't hack it for me was the Istanbul in 2005.
Man for man that AC Milan team was so much better than Liverpool. It would be the equivalent of Chelsea going 3-0 up to say QPR and conspiring to lose.
Carlo just stood and watched whilst Milan capitulated, both my dad and I hate Liverpool (he is a United fan) and I to this day I couldn't forgive Carlo for that.
The players have to take responsibility, but I got the feeling that after the United loss the players simply didn't want to play under Carlo anymore, Kalou's reaction on Twitter summed it up for me and the lack of Chelsea players sticking up for Carlo in general.
It must be an Italian thing because Mancini is like that as well, if you aren't in his plans you are outcasted.
Josh, Sturridge, Bosingwa, Mikel and even Anelka for me have looked like different players under AVB and he has only been in charge for 6 weeks.
I don't care if other Chelsea fans want to slate me for saying this but I still maintain the belief that we should have won the title by a lot more than 1 point in 09/10. When Spurs beat us I genuinely thought that was it, thank fark Blackburn managed to hold United though otherwise it would have been curtains
Bubbles
Ancelotti for me was responsible for some of the worst performances I have ever seen from a Chelsea team
Being outdone by Mourinho and Ferguson I can just about take. Being undone so comprehensively by Steve Bruce...
One of my mates up at uni is a Newcastle fan, and a few weeks after that I went to see them crush that same outfit 5-0. It was almost painful watching that game, this was the same outfit we;d made look like Barcelona
What made all those games you've mentioned so painful to me was just how poor we were, we deserved everything we got, going out with barely a whimper
09/10 was a mixture of the very, very good and the very very bad
After Arsenal away I was convinced we'd won the title already. After we lost to Spurs I was convinced we'd blown it
Given Arsenal's inconsistencies and the fact that United had just sold Tevez and Ronaldo that title should have come an awful lot more easily
Performanvces last season were unforgivable. Genuinely can't remember a good performance from Carlo's Chelsea side since last September
I can never forgive those Liverpool or Sunderland home results
Ooops
Just seen That Newcastle-Sunderland game was before our Sunderland home game
My bad
Not that it makes it any better, my point still stands
When I remember just how poor Sunderland were and what they did to us...
Click
The only games we were good in IMO were Blackpool and Wigan and come on it WAS Blackpool and Wigan.
Having sat there and watched that pile of ----, I can honestly say the 2-1 to Spurs was as embarrassed as I've felt as a Chelsea fan which says a lot considering I've seen us lose heavily to Liverpool and United down the years and heck even Spurs as well.
Us only losing 2-1 to Spurs in 09/10 was the biggest miracle since Moses led the Hebrews across the Red Sea because quite frankly it could and should have been double figures, were it not for Cech and Pav profligacy it would have been. To lose that way to arguably one of our biggest if not biggest rival was just unacceptable.
Having said that Carlo had us playing some of the best football I've ever seen us play and got the best out of us from March onwards, but the performances in 10/11 in particular to rival sides I couldn't take. We lost to United FOUR times last season, FOUR!
I also can't forgive Carlo for us having to suffer the humiliation of losing home and away to Liverpool, something we hadn't had to endure since Scolari.
I remember a time where Liverpool used to be a 3 point banker for us at Home, this going way back to the early 90s.
I honestly believe that if we had of managed to beat Liverpool at Anfield or at least get a draw, which should have been s simple task considering the state they were in, Hodgson would have gone about a month sooner than he did, it reminded me of Rafa in 09/10 whereby their were rumours that if Rafa lost to United he would have been sacked there and then, as it is they waited till May, remember H&G already had Klinsmann lined up
I can't believe how poor we were against Liverpool, that must be the first time Hodgson has ever beaten us as manager, remember we had inflicted defeat upon him in every managerial job in England he has ever had, going back to Blackburn and then to Fulham.
We had Cech to thank again at Craven Cottage, because I'm not sure if I would have been able to cope with the embarrassment of losing to Fulham again (at least last time I could blame the ref), next you know we would have been losing to QPR which is probably just as bad if not worse
We seem to have some hoodoo around White Hart Lane at the moment
Makes me mad, that for a ground we used to refer to affectionately at 3 Point Lane we seem to have some mental block there now. I link that back to the 4-4 there under Grant which we would have lost had it not been for Cudicini's last gasp save
09/10 to me was a mixture of the very good (Stoke at home was as good as I've seen us in years) and the very bad. That game in Milan we were lamentable, those hopeless performances away to Hull and Spurs
For me, Carlo simply couldn't cope when things got serious. Any team who approached with a degree of pragmatism would likely get a result
His record against the big teams was poor. You can point to the 09/10 record against the top teams and our inability to close the gap
Even in 09/10. Arsenal were largely defeated near single handedly by Drogba
Liverpool were in turmoil that season, United we were helped by some dire officiating and Rooney's injury
10/11 saw Carlo really exposed. We deservedly lost in the Community Shield, lost to Hodgson's Pool side , were completly outdone by United in the CL
Thing with Carlo is when his teams clicked the other teams might as well play to keep the score down but when the wheels go off .....
..... just best not to even go there.
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Optimistic but Realistic
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posted on 14/8/11
geniusgreaves
Sorry I misunderstood
I am personally a 4-4-2 hater so I favour the 4-3-3. 4-3-3 has it's problems defensively but in terms of creativity it is much better.
It comes as no surprise to me that Barcelona who IMO are the best team in world football deploy 4-3-3.
4-4-2 simply won't work unless you have natural wide players i.e Ashley Young, Nani, Valencia (Man Utd). Bale, Lennon (Spurs). Arshavin, Walcott, Gervinho (Arsenal). Downing, Suarez (Liverpool).
posted on 14/8/11
I agree I think 4 3 3 is the best formation. It was the crown jewel of our success like many other teams. 4 4 2 is so flat, I can see feel it when playing Fifa.
posted on 14/8/11
Bubbles, agree with you on the wide men....................you need two fast wingers and then Torres might score........................however whilst you play 4-3-3 other teams will play either 4-4-2 or even 4-5-1 to over run you in the middle of the park.
posted on 14/8/11
Screen (U8522)
Torres has looked sharper than Drogba in pre-season.
I personally think on their day they are both the best strikers in the Prem along with Rooney.
If you had asked me 3 or even 4 years ago I would have said Torres was the better player by a mile, but he has stagnated a bit since the last 2 years or so but is getting back to his best.
Football is about having strength and depth. I could easily say Berbatov is wasted on the bench as well, but football is a squad game and Drogba will get his chance.
posted on 14/8/11
geniusgreaves (U1302)
The problem I have with Chelsea is not the formation it is the tempo and the speed of the build up play.
As much as it pains me to say this other than Chelsea (as they are my team) I enjoy watching United and Spurs more than any other team in the Prem simply because the build up play is so fast and often I've seen Modric, Lennon and Bale just sweep defences of their feet simply because the tempo has been too quick.
At Spurs and United there is a huge emphasis on counter attacking football and it comes naturally to them whereas it doesn't with us. AVB likes that and that is why I think he has favoured Bosingwa at RB position.
Arsenal when playing away from home play some great football just with no end product, at Emirates I find their build up to slow.
posted on 14/8/11
Berbatov is on the bench because rooney and hernandez is more successful and beba mite leave. At the end of the day its all down to success and playing Drogba and Torres is the best way for you lot to achieve success. each can win games on their own. I rate AVB but why he decided to play one at a time is beyond any logic
posted on 14/8/11
Screen
Everyone has difference in opinion, sometimes you need the right balance, as I've said, if Torres and Drogba both played we would have to have one less player up front. That would mean our creativity would have to come from midfield and we don't have any creative midfielders.
As much as I like Kalou, he isn't consistent enough to play in that position, same for Malouda to a lesser extent.
posted on 14/8/11
fair enough
Im sure AVB will sort it out soon but not too soon
posted on 14/8/11
Screen
You can't have watched too many of our games last season
Watching Ancelotti try to get a Torres-Drogba partnership going with such horrific results...
That home defeat to Liverpool had me almost in tears
Torres has looked infinitely sharper and more confident since AVB arrived, and I don't think this is simply due to formation changes
Under Ancelotti he was played wrongly and his confidence was shattered
When I look back I don;t see how we could not not have ditched Carlo, everyone's confidence was absolute rock bottom and he offered us absolutely no tactical inspiration
posted on 14/8/11
@ The return of click for free beer_Free Luka from small club mediocrity (U3630)
I dont rate Ancelotti, torres was off form and havent settled in well. All im saying is that torres drogba partnership has the potential to be the most destructive CF pairing in the history of PL and Im sure thats why Roman bought him. It should theoretically work. Drogba with the muscle and Torres with the guile. Its up to a competent manager to figure out the correct formula .
posted on 14/8/11
I always saw Torres as the signing to replace Drogs
It was a panic signing, we were looking in big danger of crashing out the top 4 altogether which would have been disastrous
As for Ancelotti
Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one who thinks we made 100% the right decision in firing him
Absolutely awful tactically. Same bloody tactics week in week out. Tactical pragmatism was swapping around Anelka and Kalou in the starting eleven
Players confidence was rock bottom
But what really riles me about the Ancelotti era is the gutless European performances. For a manager brought in to conquer Europe we were lamentable in Europe. Failed to register a home goal in the knockout stage, it was painful seeing him so utterly destroyed by Mourinho and Fergie
We looked further away than ever from winning the competition udner his stewardship, offered no inspiration, no leadership
As Bubbles said, had we gone into today's game with Carlo in charge we';d likely have lost
posted on 14/8/11
Click
I will always like Carlo and be thankful of what he did for us but I was as much against his initial appointment as I was his sacking.
The Sunderland game upset me and the Liverpool game even moreso, but the final straw for me was Arsenal away and United away in the CL.
The 5 games that IMO got Carlo the sack were:
1. Liverpool (Home)
When he completely changed the team to accomodate Torres straight away against his old club as well as sub him not only did that ruin Torres but that would have no doubt upset Anelka who gave what was the best performance I have ever seen from him in a Chelsea shirt, Kalou was equally as impressive IMO. The least they deserved was to be given a chance to do it again with the same formation.
2. United (Home) - CL
That has got to be the most gutless uninspiring performance I have ever seen from a Chelsea team in the CL. Carlo tried to use the 4-4-2 in the first half of the league game against United and it failed, as soon as we reverted to 4-3-3 we turned the game around and won. I can't see how Carlo didn't learn from that.
3. Sunderland Home
No disrespect to Sunderland but I don't think they ever have or ever will play an away game as easy. At times I had to pinch myself to actually believe that was us playing. Even if that were Barcelona that would have annoyed me, but Sunderland travel poorly and we made an above average team look like world beaters, what was worse was that the 0-3 scoreline actually flattered us!
4. United Away (League)
The way he dealt with Luiz and further humiliated him by taking him off at Half time for me was completely wrong. it showed he had no faith in him, for a young player that must have been shattering. The game was lost once he lost it with Luiz after that IMO.
5. United away (CL)
Every Chelsea fan leaving OT was furious Drogba didn't start. On the coach on the way back one fan even asked both United and Chelsea fans whether Drogba should have started and we all unanimously said yes. You should protect your players like SAF and Wenger would. Let's face it Torres was torn to shreds by the OT crowd. Had Drogba started I'm certain we would have gone through even with the 1-0 deficit in the first leg.
posted on 14/8/11
The earliest indications that Carlo couldn't hack it for me was the Istanbul in 2005.
Man for man that AC Milan team was so much better than Liverpool. It would be the equivalent of Chelsea going 3-0 up to say QPR and conspiring to lose.
Carlo just stood and watched whilst Milan capitulated, both my dad and I hate Liverpool (he is a United fan) and I to this day I couldn't forgive Carlo for that.
The players have to take responsibility, but I got the feeling that after the United loss the players simply didn't want to play under Carlo anymore, Kalou's reaction on Twitter summed it up for me and the lack of Chelsea players sticking up for Carlo in general.
It must be an Italian thing because Mancini is like that as well, if you aren't in his plans you are outcasted.
Josh, Sturridge, Bosingwa, Mikel and even Anelka for me have looked like different players under AVB and he has only been in charge for 6 weeks.
I don't care if other Chelsea fans want to slate me for saying this but I still maintain the belief that we should have won the title by a lot more than 1 point in 09/10. When Spurs beat us I genuinely thought that was it, thank fark Blackburn managed to hold United though otherwise it would have been curtains
posted on 14/8/11
Bubbles
Ancelotti for me was responsible for some of the worst performances I have ever seen from a Chelsea team
Being outdone by Mourinho and Ferguson I can just about take. Being undone so comprehensively by Steve Bruce...
One of my mates up at uni is a Newcastle fan, and a few weeks after that I went to see them crush that same outfit 5-0. It was almost painful watching that game, this was the same outfit we;d made look like Barcelona
What made all those games you've mentioned so painful to me was just how poor we were, we deserved everything we got, going out with barely a whimper
posted on 14/8/11
09/10 was a mixture of the very, very good and the very very bad
After Arsenal away I was convinced we'd won the title already. After we lost to Spurs I was convinced we'd blown it
Given Arsenal's inconsistencies and the fact that United had just sold Tevez and Ronaldo that title should have come an awful lot more easily
Performanvces last season were unforgivable. Genuinely can't remember a good performance from Carlo's Chelsea side since last September
I can never forgive those Liverpool or Sunderland home results
posted on 14/8/11
Ooops
Just seen That Newcastle-Sunderland game was before our Sunderland home game
My bad
Not that it makes it any better, my point still stands
When I remember just how poor Sunderland were and what they did to us...
posted on 14/8/11
Click
The only games we were good in IMO were Blackpool and Wigan and come on it WAS Blackpool and Wigan.
Having sat there and watched that pile of ----, I can honestly say the 2-1 to Spurs was as embarrassed as I've felt as a Chelsea fan which says a lot considering I've seen us lose heavily to Liverpool and United down the years and heck even Spurs as well.
Us only losing 2-1 to Spurs in 09/10 was the biggest miracle since Moses led the Hebrews across the Red Sea because quite frankly it could and should have been double figures, were it not for Cech and Pav profligacy it would have been. To lose that way to arguably one of our biggest if not biggest rival was just unacceptable.
Having said that Carlo had us playing some of the best football I've ever seen us play and got the best out of us from March onwards, but the performances in 10/11 in particular to rival sides I couldn't take. We lost to United FOUR times last season, FOUR!
posted on 14/8/11
I also can't forgive Carlo for us having to suffer the humiliation of losing home and away to Liverpool, something we hadn't had to endure since Scolari.
I remember a time where Liverpool used to be a 3 point banker for us at Home, this going way back to the early 90s.
I honestly believe that if we had of managed to beat Liverpool at Anfield or at least get a draw, which should have been s simple task considering the state they were in, Hodgson would have gone about a month sooner than he did, it reminded me of Rafa in 09/10 whereby their were rumours that if Rafa lost to United he would have been sacked there and then, as it is they waited till May, remember H&G already had Klinsmann lined up
I can't believe how poor we were against Liverpool, that must be the first time Hodgson has ever beaten us as manager, remember we had inflicted defeat upon him in every managerial job in England he has ever had, going back to Blackburn and then to Fulham.
We had Cech to thank again at Craven Cottage, because I'm not sure if I would have been able to cope with the embarrassment of losing to Fulham again (at least last time I could blame the ref), next you know we would have been losing to QPR which is probably just as bad if not worse
posted on 14/8/11
We seem to have some hoodoo around White Hart Lane at the moment
Makes me mad, that for a ground we used to refer to affectionately at 3 Point Lane we seem to have some mental block there now. I link that back to the 4-4 there under Grant which we would have lost had it not been for Cudicini's last gasp save
09/10 to me was a mixture of the very good (Stoke at home was as good as I've seen us in years) and the very bad. That game in Milan we were lamentable, those hopeless performances away to Hull and Spurs
For me, Carlo simply couldn't cope when things got serious. Any team who approached with a degree of pragmatism would likely get a result
His record against the big teams was poor. You can point to the 09/10 record against the top teams and our inability to close the gap
Even in 09/10. Arsenal were largely defeated near single handedly by Drogba
Liverpool were in turmoil that season, United we were helped by some dire officiating and Rooney's injury
10/11 saw Carlo really exposed. We deservedly lost in the Community Shield, lost to Hodgson's Pool side , were completly outdone by United in the CL
posted on 15/8/11
Thing with Carlo is when his teams clicked the other teams might as well play to keep the score down but when the wheels go off .....
posted on 15/8/11
..... just best not to even go there.
posted on 24/3/12
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