Another 'I don't like David Moyes' article dressed up.
No, he hasn't. Depends on what you call "achievement".
Another 'I don't like David Moyes' article dressed up.
-------------------------
Disagree. In what way is it dressed up?
comment by Sheriff John Brown - bring back David Dein (U7482)
posted 3 minutes ago
No, he hasn't. Depends on what you call "achievement".
................................
I would like to see how you define it to categorically come out and say 'no he hasn't'.
Please enlighten us.
Solskjaer - very promising start to his managerial career, winning the league in Norway with a club that had never won the title before. Obviously a bright young manager. One caveat: Molde, despite their modest history, were on an upward trajectory, having finished second in the league the year before, so it wasn't a Hollywood narrative where he moulded a bunch of no-hopers into champs.
Moyes - experienced manager, well respected among peers, whose previous team consistently punched above its weight in the highly competitive Premiership.
You could argue it both ways. Solskjaer has winner's medals but not in a very prestigious competition. Moyes has none but has carved out a strong reputation in arguably the toughest league in the world.
On one hand, you could say that a winner is a winner. On the other, at what stage does a medal become irrelevant? Belarussian league champion? Andorran league champion?
I do hope Ole enhances his reputation at Cardiff. I see him as a future United manager.
I would like to see how you define it to categorically come out and say 'no he hasn't'.
Please enlighten us.
-------------------------------------------
Whilst I would generally agree that Solskjaer has achieved more as both a player and a manager there is some room to manoeveur to say he hasn't.
As a player, don't think anyone can argue Ole has achieved more.
As a manager, David Moyes has taken over a relegation threatened team (Preston) and led them to safety. He then got them promoted in two seasons. In his first season in Division One he got Preston to the play-offs with very little investment.
At Everton, he successfully turned them into a consistent team and challenged the monopoly of the "Big 4". He finished in the top 4 once but (unfortunately) missed out on the CL due to Liverpool winning it.
At United he has won the Community Shield.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 5 minutes ago
Solskjaer - very promising start to his managerial career, winning the league in Norway with a club that had never won the title before. Obviously a bright young manager. One caveat: Molde, despite their modest history, were on an upward trajectory, having finished second in the league the year before, so it wasn't a Hollywood narrative where he moulded a bunch of no-hopers into champs.
Moyes - experienced manager, well respected among peers, whose previous team consistently punched above its weight in the highly competitive Premiership.
You could argue it both ways. Solskjaer has winner's medals but not in a very prestigious competition. Moyes has none but has carved out a strong reputation in arguably the toughest league in the world.
On one hand, you could say that a winner is a winner. On the other, at what stage does a medal become irrelevant? Belarussian league champion? Andorran league champion?
I do hope Ole enhances his reputation at Cardiff. I see him as a future United manager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent assessment
having finished second in the league the year before
==========================================
they finished second in 2009, ole took over in 2011
De Gea's Legs
I stand corrected! As far as I know, the point stands that they were on an upward trajectory when he took over though.
whose previous team consistently punched above its weight in the highly competitive Premiership.
........................
Did it consistantly punch above it's weight or did it punch at its weight?
As far as I know, the point stands that they were on an upward trajectory when he took over though.
............
They went from second in 2009 to just avoiding relegation in 2010.
Not sure how you view that as an upward trajection really.
Maybe that particular point doesn't stand.
VC, I'd say above. Not spectacularly above, but pretty consistently. Everton have always been a club that had to sell in order to buy and their net transfer expenditure over Moyes' reign was very modest. In terms of wages, they were not the poorest club out there but (according to the most recent figures I can find) they are 10th.
Plenty of clubs with that kind of spending power of fluctuated wildly in the table. Some have experienced relegation. None have knocked on the door of CL qualification. N.B. Liverpool were 5th and Spurs 6th in those wage figures.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 1 minute ago
As far as I know, the point stands that they were on an upward trajectory when he took over though.
............
They went from second in 2009 to just avoiding relegation in 2010.
Not sure how you view that as an upward trajection really.
Maybe that particular point doesn't stand.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
this
they finished 11th in 2010, ole transformed them
yes in a weaker league but a massive achievement
VC, with data sets like this it all depends how many seasons we include. I'm sure I can manipulate it in such a way that the average line is still pointing upwards when Ole walks in the office, thus validating my point!
Seriously though, I'm not attempting to denigrate him. I find him a very impressive individual and I wouldn't have complained had he been the surprise successor last summer. But from what I have read about Molde, the conditions were quite nicely primed for him. Obviously, it still needed the manager to come in and do a very good job, which he did.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 7 seconds ago
VC, I'd say above. Not spectacularly above
..................
For most of the time Moyes was in charge at Everton what teams would you say should finish above Everton?
Us, Arsenal and Chelsea, with City over the last four years and Liverpool. I would expect Everton and Spurs to be top of the bracket behind those teams.
So, how many times did Moyes finish higher?
Probably once or twice. And, they never won one single trophy in that time.
I would say that Everton punched consistantly at their weight.
"I would like to see how you define it to categorically come out and say 'no he hasn't'.
Please enlighten us."
Red Russian has summed it up pretty articulately. You can't be comparing their managerial accomplishments in totally different environments and claim Ole has achieved. For me, that's ludicrous. You're basically expecting Everton to win the title under Moyes to compare with Ole's title in Norway.
VC
Fair point, but do you not think maybe the reason you expect Everton to be in that bracket behind the top teams is because Moyes consistently had them at that level?
What about Newcastle? Villa? Those are teams i associated with being around the same level as Everton before Moyes took over.
I'm sure I can manipulate it in such a way that the average line is still pointing upwards when Ole walks in the office, thus validating my point!
.............
They were 9th in 2008, 2nd in 2009 and 11th in 2010.
Somehow that doesn't point to an upwards trend when Ole took over.
Manipulate it how you want. Your point is incorrect. I know it DGL knows it and so do you.
Red Russian has summed it up pretty articulately. You can't be comparing their managerial accomplishments in totally different environments and claim Ole has achieved. For me, that's ludicrous. You're basically expecting Everton to win the title under Moyes to compare with Ole's title in Norway.
.............
This would be fine and I agree with that, pretty much, if it were just their manegerial accomplishments we were talking about.
But it isn't. Thier playing accomplishments are just so vastly different, that the quickness that you came back with your reply of nO it isn't made me query why.
Maybe you missed the playing accomplishment part.
I would say that Everton punched consistantly at their weight.
-------------------------------
I've just looked at their league finishes season by season. Assuming their 10th place in the league wages table is fairly consistent, the last time they didn't exceed that was 2005-6.
Us, Arsenal and Chelsea, with City over the last four years and Liverpool. I would expect Everton and Spurs to be top of the bracket behind those teams.
----------------------------------
Based on what? Everton's historical status as a big club? It's not based on Everton's spending power. Perhaps the fact that Moyes succeeded in getting Everton to legitimately aspire to 4th-6th place finishes is paradoxically why you place them in that bracket.
"For most of the time Moyes was in charge at Everton what teams
would you say should finish above Everton?
Us, Arsenal and Chelsea, with City over the last four years and Liverpool. I would expect Everton and Spurs to be top of the bracket behind those teams. So, how many times did Moyes finish higher?
Probably once or twice. And, they never won one single trophy in that time.
I would say that Everton punched consistantly at their weight."
Why should Everton be finishing above teams like Villa, Newcastle and even the likes of West Ham and QPR who have spent more and paid higher wages. Their budget isn't much different from a team like Sunderland. There's no doubt Moyes did a brilliant job there.
Fair point, but do you not think maybe the reason you expect Everton to be in that bracket behind the top teams is because Moyes consistently had them at that level?
................
I would expect any manger to have them around that level to be honest Conor. I am not mocking Moyes here either.
VC
Manipulate it how you want. Your point is incorrect. I know it DGL knows it and so do you.
------------------------------
I hope you could perceive the ironic wink in that point. The serious point I made was that (from my reading) Molde was a well run and well resourced club behind the scenes which was ripe for success. Obviously a talented manager was required for that success, whereas a less talented manager could take them to an 11th or 2nd or 9th place finish.
I rate Solksjaer highly. I just think we should be cautious about calling him a miracle worker who rounded up some tramps, taught them to play football from scratch and led them to conquer the world.
Based on what?
..............
Based on the teams lower than them.
I certainly woulldn't base it on a wages table.
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Ole
Page 1 of 3
posted on 9/1/14
And your point
posted on 9/1/14
Another 'I don't like David Moyes' article dressed up.
posted on 9/1/14
No, he hasn't. Depends on what you call "achievement".
posted on 9/1/14
Another 'I don't like David Moyes' article dressed up.
-------------------------
Disagree. In what way is it dressed up?
posted on 9/1/14
comment by Sheriff John Brown - bring back David Dein (U7482)
posted 3 minutes ago
No, he hasn't. Depends on what you call "achievement".
................................
I would like to see how you define it to categorically come out and say 'no he hasn't'.
Please enlighten us.
posted on 9/1/14
Solskjaer - very promising start to his managerial career, winning the league in Norway with a club that had never won the title before. Obviously a bright young manager. One caveat: Molde, despite their modest history, were on an upward trajectory, having finished second in the league the year before, so it wasn't a Hollywood narrative where he moulded a bunch of no-hopers into champs.
Moyes - experienced manager, well respected among peers, whose previous team consistently punched above its weight in the highly competitive Premiership.
You could argue it both ways. Solskjaer has winner's medals but not in a very prestigious competition. Moyes has none but has carved out a strong reputation in arguably the toughest league in the world.
On one hand, you could say that a winner is a winner. On the other, at what stage does a medal become irrelevant? Belarussian league champion? Andorran league champion?
I do hope Ole enhances his reputation at Cardiff. I see him as a future United manager.
posted on 9/1/14
I would like to see how you define it to categorically come out and say 'no he hasn't'.
Please enlighten us.
-------------------------------------------
Whilst I would generally agree that Solskjaer has achieved more as both a player and a manager there is some room to manoeveur to say he hasn't.
As a player, don't think anyone can argue Ole has achieved more.
As a manager, David Moyes has taken over a relegation threatened team (Preston) and led them to safety. He then got them promoted in two seasons. In his first season in Division One he got Preston to the play-offs with very little investment.
At Everton, he successfully turned them into a consistent team and challenged the monopoly of the "Big 4". He finished in the top 4 once but (unfortunately) missed out on the CL due to Liverpool winning it.
At United he has won the Community Shield.
posted on 9/1/14
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 5 minutes ago
Solskjaer - very promising start to his managerial career, winning the league in Norway with a club that had never won the title before. Obviously a bright young manager. One caveat: Molde, despite their modest history, were on an upward trajectory, having finished second in the league the year before, so it wasn't a Hollywood narrative where he moulded a bunch of no-hopers into champs.
Moyes - experienced manager, well respected among peers, whose previous team consistently punched above its weight in the highly competitive Premiership.
You could argue it both ways. Solskjaer has winner's medals but not in a very prestigious competition. Moyes has none but has carved out a strong reputation in arguably the toughest league in the world.
On one hand, you could say that a winner is a winner. On the other, at what stage does a medal become irrelevant? Belarussian league champion? Andorran league champion?
I do hope Ole enhances his reputation at Cardiff. I see him as a future United manager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent assessment
posted on 9/1/14
having finished second in the league the year before
==========================================
they finished second in 2009, ole took over in 2011
posted on 9/1/14
De Gea's Legs
I stand corrected! As far as I know, the point stands that they were on an upward trajectory when he took over though.
posted on 9/1/14
whose previous team consistently punched above its weight in the highly competitive Premiership.
........................
Did it consistantly punch above it's weight or did it punch at its weight?
posted on 9/1/14
As far as I know, the point stands that they were on an upward trajectory when he took over though.
............
They went from second in 2009 to just avoiding relegation in 2010.
Not sure how you view that as an upward trajection really.
Maybe that particular point doesn't stand.
posted on 9/1/14
VC, I'd say above. Not spectacularly above, but pretty consistently. Everton have always been a club that had to sell in order to buy and their net transfer expenditure over Moyes' reign was very modest. In terms of wages, they were not the poorest club out there but (according to the most recent figures I can find) they are 10th.
Plenty of clubs with that kind of spending power of fluctuated wildly in the table. Some have experienced relegation. None have knocked on the door of CL qualification. N.B. Liverpool were 5th and Spurs 6th in those wage figures.
posted on 9/1/14
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 1 minute ago
As far as I know, the point stands that they were on an upward trajectory when he took over though.
............
They went from second in 2009 to just avoiding relegation in 2010.
Not sure how you view that as an upward trajection really.
Maybe that particular point doesn't stand.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
this
they finished 11th in 2010, ole transformed them
yes in a weaker league but a massive achievement
posted on 9/1/14
VC, with data sets like this it all depends how many seasons we include. I'm sure I can manipulate it in such a way that the average line is still pointing upwards when Ole walks in the office, thus validating my point!
Seriously though, I'm not attempting to denigrate him. I find him a very impressive individual and I wouldn't have complained had he been the surprise successor last summer. But from what I have read about Molde, the conditions were quite nicely primed for him. Obviously, it still needed the manager to come in and do a very good job, which he did.
posted on 9/1/14
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 7 seconds ago
VC, I'd say above. Not spectacularly above
..................
For most of the time Moyes was in charge at Everton what teams would you say should finish above Everton?
Us, Arsenal and Chelsea, with City over the last four years and Liverpool. I would expect Everton and Spurs to be top of the bracket behind those teams.
So, how many times did Moyes finish higher?
Probably once or twice. And, they never won one single trophy in that time.
I would say that Everton punched consistantly at their weight.
posted on 9/1/14
"I would like to see how you define it to categorically come out and say 'no he hasn't'.
Please enlighten us."
Red Russian has summed it up pretty articulately. You can't be comparing their managerial accomplishments in totally different environments and claim Ole has achieved. For me, that's ludicrous. You're basically expecting Everton to win the title under Moyes to compare with Ole's title in Norway.
posted on 9/1/14
VC
Fair point, but do you not think maybe the reason you expect Everton to be in that bracket behind the top teams is because Moyes consistently had them at that level?
What about Newcastle? Villa? Those are teams i associated with being around the same level as Everton before Moyes took over.
posted on 9/1/14
I'm sure I can manipulate it in such a way that the average line is still pointing upwards when Ole walks in the office, thus validating my point!
.............
They were 9th in 2008, 2nd in 2009 and 11th in 2010.
Somehow that doesn't point to an upwards trend when Ole took over.
Manipulate it how you want. Your point is incorrect. I know it DGL knows it and so do you.
posted on 9/1/14
Red Russian has summed it up pretty articulately. You can't be comparing their managerial accomplishments in totally different environments and claim Ole has achieved. For me, that's ludicrous. You're basically expecting Everton to win the title under Moyes to compare with Ole's title in Norway.
.............
This would be fine and I agree with that, pretty much, if it were just their manegerial accomplishments we were talking about.
But it isn't. Thier playing accomplishments are just so vastly different, that the quickness that you came back with your reply of nO it isn't made me query why.
Maybe you missed the playing accomplishment part.
posted on 9/1/14
I would say that Everton punched consistantly at their weight.
-------------------------------
I've just looked at their league finishes season by season. Assuming their 10th place in the league wages table is fairly consistent, the last time they didn't exceed that was 2005-6.
Us, Arsenal and Chelsea, with City over the last four years and Liverpool. I would expect Everton and Spurs to be top of the bracket behind those teams.
----------------------------------
Based on what? Everton's historical status as a big club? It's not based on Everton's spending power. Perhaps the fact that Moyes succeeded in getting Everton to legitimately aspire to 4th-6th place finishes is paradoxically why you place them in that bracket.
posted on 9/1/14
"For most of the time Moyes was in charge at Everton what teams
would you say should finish above Everton?
Us, Arsenal and Chelsea, with City over the last four years and Liverpool. I would expect Everton and Spurs to be top of the bracket behind those teams. So, how many times did Moyes finish higher?
Probably once or twice. And, they never won one single trophy in that time.
I would say that Everton punched consistantly at their weight."
Why should Everton be finishing above teams like Villa, Newcastle and even the likes of West Ham and QPR who have spent more and paid higher wages. Their budget isn't much different from a team like Sunderland. There's no doubt Moyes did a brilliant job there.
posted on 9/1/14
Fair point, but do you not think maybe the reason you expect Everton to be in that bracket behind the top teams is because Moyes consistently had them at that level?
................
I would expect any manger to have them around that level to be honest Conor. I am not mocking Moyes here either.
posted on 9/1/14
VC
Manipulate it how you want. Your point is incorrect. I know it DGL knows it and so do you.
------------------------------
I hope you could perceive the ironic wink in that point. The serious point I made was that (from my reading) Molde was a well run and well resourced club behind the scenes which was ripe for success. Obviously a talented manager was required for that success, whereas a less talented manager could take them to an 11th or 2nd or 9th place finish.
I rate Solksjaer highly. I just think we should be cautious about calling him a miracle worker who rounded up some tramps, taught them to play football from scratch and led them to conquer the world.
posted on 9/1/14
Based on what?
..............
Based on the teams lower than them.
I certainly woulldn't base it on a wages table.
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