There are more issues mate. THe french have signed (last week) a whale of a TV deal with Canal+ worth 72 million a year for 5 years. this dwarfs the BT deal by nearly half! However Canal+ Sky Sports and the ERC are firmly in bed together so the TV rights for european competition seem to be iron clad.

Because of the PRL deal with BT and the BT stance that no deal will be done with Sky or the ERC this leaves the PRL in a pickle. They didn't get to take over european rugby the direct way so the indirect way is to destroy the pro12 by planting the seed with the Welsh Regions thus forcing the remaining pro12 UNIONS to re-evaluate the original proposal.

I can't see the WRU capitulation any time soon as it's simple economics. If they lose control of the regions then they go into to economic meltdown. More likely is that if the regions leave then they will be cancelled as a WRU entity and new regions will be established. A proposal for this already exists and was stipulated by the WRU a few weeks ago.

As it stands tho, the Pro12 teams of Ireland Italy and Scotland look to be innocent victims of utter greed from all sides. The welsh regions, the PRL and the French all have their own agenda and at the end of the day destroying a whole league structure is least of their worries. Not to mention that the destruction of our primary league would also result in the destruction of rugby union in 3 european countries.

a Massive lawsuit from combined unions of Ireland Scotland and Italy going forward looks very likely. And it's hard to argue that they wouldn't have grounds for a lawsuit particularly in a European court. But it doesn't change the fact that 3 tier one rugby countries would be wiped off the international map.

The French and English don't want a super rugby format, they like the domestic leagues they have right now. As the canal+ deal shows, the already successful top14 has just more than doubled it's tv income and as a result will poach even more of all our talent. I can only see this making it impossible for England, NZ and Aus keeping the policy of only selecting domestic players as a result.

The pro12 is only viewed as a success in Ireland Ding. The Italians already want out, they will not pay 4m Euro pa to be in it and are planning an eight team domestic league it seems. The Welsh, even with the current format, are going broke and want out (which I am pretty sure is not coming from the PRL). In Scotland the RU core is outside the population centres where the regions were set up. Many games are treated like training sessions and all in preparation for the HC.

Just as a reminder I am not supporting the PRL or want them running any European competition. I want the AP to remain as it is, without the Welsh regions.

The only appealing aspect (for me)of a region based club system would be to have three NH leagues added to the three SH ones. For many reasons though I don't think it would work and I wouldn't want it to take something away from international rugby, which it would imo.

Like I said Ding, I can see nothing but bad coming from this.

I think the snag with a lawsuit would be who do they sue. They whole thing is such a mish-mash that everybody can simply point the finger at everybody else and say it was all their fault.

I'm sure PRL have got enough snake oil lawyers lined up to bail out of their now paltry deal with BT (blaming the French for ratting on that deal) and will be quite willing to hop into bed with the self same French.

If we (the Goedelic Celts) or the Italians are to have any hope of survival, we may have no alternative but to who-are ourselves along with them.

Aye, you need a long spoon to sup with the devil.

The French and English don't want a super rugby format, they like the domestic leagues they have right now.
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Aye, but if they thought there was a few more quid in it for them, they would alter their stance pretty quicksmart. The French did it when they pulled out of the BT/PRL deal. PRL would do the same if they saw the glint of filthy lucre. It was they, after all, who started this ball rolling by shafting the Heineken Cup. It all looks now like it might be rolling a bit faster than they wanted.

We can talk about on here all we like but at the end of the day the decisions will be the self serving, self obsessed, parasitic snake oil salesmen who style themselves as the "elite".

Money for who? The club owners who would have their clubs destroyed by it or the RFU?

Changing into regions would be a monumental change for England and France, it won't happen.

Aristo

I would also mention that there is a club wide salary cap coming into French rugby next season of 10m Which is going to severely limit their buying power. and sort of kicks your point into touch.

On the Welsh regions joining the PRL.... Seems the welsh are the only ones talking about this as a real possibility. the PRL are remaining remarkable vague as they are normally only too ready to talk $.hit in public.

What happened to their plan to join the Saffer super 15 teams? Oh ye. The saffers told them that they were dreaming.

It's clear enough that the PRL are using the Welsh schism to their advantage in order to get what they want i.e. commercial and governing control of European Rugby. But at the cost of the pro12.

Aristo you make pretty reasonable points and they would normally be accepted as common sense if not for the fact that the evidence is contrary to them. And cut the nonsense about Ital. they were invited in to do them a favour. And they have been making hay from the HC. It's their job to make the most of being involved in a decent league. Not ours. We can do without them if they want out. It's not the issue. A moot point quite frankly. I have no problem with any english club or fan. But the management of the PRL are the lowest of the low.

Now answer me this Aristo. And show me your true colours.

Do you condone the destruction of professional rugby in Scotland and Ireland in order to please the greedy suits heading up the PRL. Because that is exactly what they are attempting to do. If you could do me the kindness of a concise answer instead of smoke and mirrors i would most definitely appreciate it

I wasn't aware of a cap being brought in, but 10m (Euro?) is small based on what is already being spent and the increase of revenue. Taking Toulouse as an example, this year they have a wage budget of 35m Euro, its insane but how can they drop that by a third in a year? It isn't possible. Anyways that is another issue.
Of course I don't want the destruction of Scottish and Irish rugby and I have said it time and again I am not supporting or condoning the PRL. I don't know how many times I can say that to you before you believe me. Do you think the regions are working in Scotland and Wales though?
As for Italy, well it is a very expensive favour for them and the 4m Euro pa is a huge chunk of the Italian union's budget. They say they want to start a new domestic league and I think it would be best for them to do so. They would know much better than me though.

I don't want super rugby of any kind (even though I love the SH version).

I don't want anything that is bad for the international game.

I want to keep the premiership.

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

Ok Aristo fair play.
The wage budget in france is confirmed. I read it in the irish times and the guardian in the last week. ANd definitely both those sources are reporting 10m. Add to that the clubs in france are obliged next season to use french qualified players brought in from the academies also!

The French Union seem to be exerting more control over the top 14 which is not as independant as the PL is from the RFU. Word coming from france also that the FFR will be setting aside a budget to centrally contract (some) players but no data regarding this. could be BS

Incidentally i have read a whole host of articles recently from British papers, mostly the guardian, who seem to have done a u-turn regarding the Heineken cup. Stories of how important it is to English rugby etc etc However they seem to be walking a diplomatic line calling it top level european competition rather than calling a spade a spade i.e The Heineken cup. Still i take this as a positive that the propaganda machine may have turned a corner to the side of what's right and correct.

Hi Chaps

Hope all is well with you, even any Bath fans out there! This always seems a fun topic, guaranteed to get peoples opinions flowing!

If we were to take a step back first of all and say what is the best league format for each country, the French and English town based teams seem to work, and the provincial system works for the Irish, and possibly the Scots. However, things in Wales on aclub basis are clearly not working and the Pro 12 doesn't seem to suit the Italians

On that basis is the best system for the Welsh clubs to try the Premiership as Swansea, Cardiff, Llaneli and Newport, if the current set up isnt working maybr its worth a bash? What then for the Scots and Irish, 2 extra clubs each to complete the league wouldn't seem to work, but then it also seems unfair to hold the Welsh in a system that even the accountants have deemed unsustainable, I guess the Scots could be incorporated into a British league, but I can't see the whole Pro 12 less the Italians fitting in

So, where forward, I guess its each to his own, is it possible that Munster could split into Cork and Limerick, plus perhaps a side in Galway, two in Belfast and a couple in Dublin, a mess I'll grant you, and thats before we even consider a European Cup option, though perhaps it might work to take a year off from this, get a model that works for all and reconvene.

Personally, I'd like the Welsh in the Premiership as for Gloucester it would give some good local derbies, which I think would be fun. Show could you see the likes of Heriots and Watsonians returning? Would hat work, would it be good?

Ps one alternative I'd dismissed is a British Irish provincial system - can you imagine being merged with Leicester? Our equivalent I can't even bear to write!

I do think it will all come out Ok in the end though

Gloucester and Bath could put out a decent side to be fair You see Stooke got a Saxons call too? .... and May's try at the weekend?

Ye SARS so all the celtic countries change their whole system to fit into a "British" league format.

Apart from that being ridiculous, every team you are talking about splitting are established business concerns not to mention being under the control of their respective Unions and despite the French system they ultimately answer to the FFR.

Every team you have mentioned is a professional rugby union team not a pub team who can be bounced around willynilly (no offence Show)

In fact the only Independant rugby union league on the planet is the Premiership and as far as i'm concerned that model has failed badly.

The WRU have, lets say, informed the current welsh regions that they are contractually bound to the Pro12. And if they refuse to honour their contracts, they will face legal action. Furthermore they will be replaced and the region system in wales will be re evaluated to ensure that no less than 4 teams at the highest level possible shall be representing the WRU in the Pro12.

THats the facts of what's happening in wales. Naturally the WRU are giving the Regions as much time as possible to come up with an amicable solution.

P.S.
With all due respect Ireland Struggle to run 4 provincial teams with one sadly under funded and under supported. But you wouldn't want Leinster Munster and Ulster in your Premiership. The current teams would end up being also rans. And i mean that in the nicest way possible.

Look in the cool of the morning don't you think this is the best solution:

Since all the concessions have been made regarding the Heineken cup in particular the format and the money distribution. 1/3rd to each league, qualification on merit, reduction to 20 teams.

Considering all of the demands of the French and English leagues have been made does is not make perfect sense to continue with this new set up? Since the French got what they asked for they are back on board with the ERC. Why not the PRL? That's the elephant in the room and despite ignoring or simply not wanting to confront it the elephant is still there and consists of the on going battle between Sky and BT

There is no other issue on the table as all other concessions have been made. Hence the reason the French are back on board.

On that basis is the best system for the Welsh clubs to try the Premiership as Swansea, Cardiff, Llaneli and Newport, if the current set up isnt working maybr its worth a bash?
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Welcome back SARS. HNY to you

But the reality in Wales is that (Ospreys excepted) it is a de facto town based system any way. Blues are Cardiff, Scarlets are Llanelli and Dragons are Newport.

All you need is to separate Neath and Swansea (whoever thought that was going to work ). They started with 5 'regions', remember the Celtic Warriors. Oh, and call them by what we all know them, the town they come from, not colours, animals or nicknames.

As for Scotland, in the words of the old boy on Dads Army "we're doomed I tell ye, doooomed". When the region set-up was first put forward, no-one would have thought that the first to perish would be the Borders. I think that was down to parochialism because it was centred on Gala because it had the biggest stadium to accommodate the crowds that never materialised. You cannot sustain an elite team on gates of 1000.

But to answer your question, can I see Watsonians, Heriots etc. reappearing, Well, they haven't gone away really, though some, particularly Jed Forest, are at a lower level than they used to be. The Scottish Premiership today contains Gala, Melrose, Heriots, Ayr, Edinburgh Accies, Glasgow Hawks, Hawick, Stirling County, Currie, Aberdeen Grammar FP. Possibilities for promotion look like Boroughmuir, Watsonians or Stewarts/Melville FP. All good old names, but I wouldn't think they could sustain "elite" rugby any more.

Your suggestion for Ireland isn't going to work I'm afraid, as it wouldn't in Scotland. All you are really suggesting is a further dilution of what we have now, a kind of Rabo Light, to replace the Welsh and Italians.

I can understand why, as Englishmen, you and Aristo are happy to go along with recent developments. You may say that you don't want PRL/RRW to trample over Scottish and Irish rugby to achieve their ends, but you know, deep down, that that is the only outcome of the proposals. And, as I asked at the beginning, where will all that leave the Six Nations.

What exactly am I happy to go along with? Wanting the Premiership to continue as it is? If so, then yes I am.

Also Ding, if the Irish regions came into the prem (hypothetical of course) they would have to operate in the wage cap and not have all the Irish internationals paid for. Why would they dominate? They wouldn't.

Hi there

Ding, I don't want the Celtic sides, or anyone else to change forthe exclusive benefit of the English or any other sides. The Welsh sides seem very unhappy and my thoughts are what is the best way to suit eveyone, if the Welsh and Italians do leave, is that best for them, where would they go and what would happen to wthe other Rabo sides.

I don't see this as the machinations good or bad, or the PRL but a question as to how everyones desires can be satisfied. The solution for the Welsh and Italians is perhaps evident, though it makes things a touch sticky for the Scots and Irish, however, wondering out loud - a dangerous thing I grant you - would it be possible for the Welsh and Italians to be replaced by say 3 more Welsh sides funded by the RFU - Pontypool (yay!), Cwmbran maybe and another 3 Scottish sides funded by the SRU and perhaps the other clubs, this could see the leagues vitality at leat held, whilst boosting Scottish and Welsh club rugby - a win all round perhaps?

Aristo, what do you think of the England wing situation, Jerry Guscott is suggesting May and Watson, it would seem like a bit of a gamble, and Lancaster strikes me as quite cautious, but I'd go for it myself, surely Brown must be full back now?

Finally, does the number of injuries seem high to everyone else? Who will you miss most for your country and who can come up with the best crocked XV?

Aristo

So the well aired proposal of the Welsh clubs joining the English league is something you are vehemently against. Sorry, I must have missed where you stated that.

I'm sure Ding will enlighten us as to the total wage bill at Leinster, but I can't see it being above £5.5M - the new English wage cap. My apologies if it is.

Sorry, funded by the WRU ha ha!

SARS

Appreciate your concern mate, but what you are suggesting is a watered down Rabo.

Scotland (the SRU) has already proved that it can't sustain 3 teams, never mind 4 or 5.

I don't think you appreciate the reason why Irish rugby has had some success. The teams are based on the historic provinces, with which every Irishman has an in built, hard wired affinity. Diluting that, even with a town based system, would almost certainly be much less effective than the current set up.

Anything other than having the Scots, Welsh and Irish together is going to be bad news for the Scots and Irish.

How about my very first post on this thread, or perhaps any number of other posts where I said I don't want the prem to change.

The cap is £5m, up from the £4.5m it currently is and has certain criteria to be met or it is less. With the IRFU contracts included Munster, Ulster and Leinster are above that figure easily. I am also sure Ding knows more than me but players like BOD and SOB are on roughly 400k+ (30 players are centrally contracted and mostly at Leinster and Munster) added to that they get a flat fee given each year. They don't release wage bills but it can be certain they are over the prem figure.

Hey SARS,

Yeah May Watson and Brown would be awesome to see. I think the Sarries pack is Englands biggest nightmare though, it almost makes their backline look good. I will be happy if there is no Barritt, Ashton or Goode.

Aristo

I stand corrected, but I'd take issue with this, also in your first post. " In Scotland the RU core is outside the population centres where the regions were set up. Many games are treated like training sessions and all in preparation for the HC. "

That'll be why Glasgow are challenging at the top of the league then.

They still average less than 4k? If you think it is working then fair enough.

Aristo

So that would keep them well under any cap then, unless they had a squad of 50+.

How many English players get paid more that £4K per week? Not many I suspect, though the 'superstars' will be on heaps more - plus the sponsorship deals.

I never said it was working particularly well, just debunking your ridiculous assertion about the motives of Scottish clubs.

Don't worry, I've lived in England long enough to know that you won't back down from that view, even when it has been shown to be nonsense.