"They don't realise that the same thingy is central to all matters ManU"
I don't think that's true.
These aren't some fly-by-night merchants that have no idea what they're doing... they know full well how to run a successful sports club and make money from it.
I don't agree with things that they have done, but I don't think they're naïve to what the club needs to be up there and competing.
Good response Winston, a true fan, supporting your club. Now, a simple question. Please name all of the world-class players that the Glazers and Rudolph have signed, say 2007-13.
JimmyTheRed
World class is debatable.
How many world class players did we sign before they took over?
Here's a list of high profile signings, for significant sums:
Tevez
Nani
Anderson
Hargreaves
Berbatov
Valencia
Jones
De Gea
Young
Van Persie
Fellaini
Mata
A fair chunk of money spent.
Yes, I do believe that they're keeping tighter purse strings than owners of a different ilk, because their sole objective is to make money out of the club.
But I don't believe for a minute that they don't understand that investment is required to keep the club successful.
I also don't think that getting rid of Moyes means that the philosophy of a long term approach needs to change.
====================================================
No, it doesn’t need to, but the question is whether it will. I think this is a more critical juncture for United than who the manager is. Getting rid of Hicks and Gillett was a much more critical juncture for us than getting rid of Hodgson (whos was really just seen as “their man”, and was either unlucky enough, or daft enough , to be caught in the middle of it).
I’m not saying it will fail, and United’s revenues will almost certainly ensure that it won’t ever get worse than it is now, but FSG admit they made mistakes in their first year or two, before they realised that the model for American sports ownership needed to be modified quite a lot for English football.
It remains to be seen whether the Glazers will follow the American Sports model (for which different rules apply, because their sports are administered differently). I wouldn’t even say that we are out of those particular woods yet, either, though we’ve taken a couple of very promising turns.
This is the first big test of of it. for the Glazers.
====================================================
If they think it's the wrong fit, as do many of us now, then they need to act.
====================================================
That’s just the thing: what’s the criterion for deciding it’s the wrong fit? Did Ferguson look like the right fit, after he’d been there 5 years and managed 3 bottom-half finishes?
I would suggest to you that he didn’t. Fortunately for United fans, the board (and Charlton in particular) could see past that, but if you’re looking for a long-term model, how do you know?
How can you judge a long-term project on a short-term basis? (and yes, I know that the money will ensure that nobody will ever be as as long-termist as United were with Ferguson...but less than one season?).
I think the same thing about Directors of Football. In this country, we judge them after two years, and point to the players they bought that didn’t work out, but that is to completely misunderstand the model. I do not believe that the Glazers don’t understand the need to invest: I think they almost certainly do. The question is: how short-term does the return on that investment need to be?
We’ll find out over the next few seasons, and it will be central to the question of whether there has been a sea-change in the identity of your club.
I think this took Gary Neville by surprise, he has maintained all season that they simply wouldn’t do it, (even while being critical of Moyes).
Wessie Road (U10652)
I agree, but the answers to those questions don't have quantitative answers, in my opinion.
Rodgers is a fantastic example, now.
Most Liverpool fans I know saw the plan. They didn't need points, stats etc. to tell them what their eyes could see, which was a different approach on the pitch.
Ultimately, there's no recipe or formula. It comes down to gut feel and instinct.
Man Utd will give their manager the basis to build for the long term, but the management of the club will use their own interpretation of events to decide whether they've got the right man.
If it looks like a sheep and it sounds like a sheep, it's probably a sheep.
If it looks like a sheep and it sounds like a sheep, it's probably a sheep
=====================================================
Oh, I don't know about that, Winston. Fergie looked like a sheep and sounded like a sheep, but turned out to be an old goat.
At the moment, there's a lot of scientific research about "instinctive thinking", (as per books like "Thinking Fast, Thinking Slow" ) and jin particular just how wrong it can be. Daniel Levy looks to me like a fan of "instinctive thinking".
But you're a master debater, Winston, and it'll be interesting to see how things unfold. I think it's different from the Hodgson case, in the sense that we didn't just want him out, we wanted the whole regime out, not least because it was patently obvious, they were going to be short-termist, while claiming otherwise.
Wessie Road (U10652)
- Nice one!
I agree it's different in many respects, though there are some similarities.
Maybe instinctive thinking was the wrong term. In fact, it was definitely the wrong term.
But what I mean we cannot sit here and agree a formula for a long term plan now.
A good CEO, Managing Director or even Manager will be able to assess what's going on in his or her organisation and make decisions based on what they conclude.
'What's going on' should not, in my view, be confined to points, statistics etc.
'What's going on' should not, in my view, be confined to points, statistics etc.
===============================================
No, that can be very wrong too....it's only ever easy in hindsight (which, let's face it, is what most of us fans do)
I don't think a gut feeling should come into it. You have to have reasons. For me, if results aren't good, you have to see the direction the manager is implementing and believe it will work in future, if you don't believe in the direction and don't feel it's going to work, then you make the change.
For example, I felt Dalglish should go, despite us not going backwards, getting to cup finals etc as I just didn't see the direction. I saw it clearly last season under Rodgers, despite no cup finals and one position higher in the table. It has then continued on this season, massively. I still see the clear direction we're going, the tactics and how they could evolve in the coming season.
Winston, well done, good effort. Perhaps I should have included "successful" in the options. With the exception of De Gea, none of the others, in my view, have exactly set the world alight. Young, I must confess, was a player I expected to see really shine at OT, but it hasn't happened. Fellaini isn't and never will be a United player. Neither RVP nor Mata have made their mark. I accept that no all of our signings have been blinding successes, but it seems we are doing better than you, and our youth teams are beginning to deliver.
JimmyTheRed
JimmyTheRed (U1682)
Regardless of what you think about who has or hasn't been a success, the point we were discussing was whether the Glazers are prepared to invest in keeping the club successful.
I assume from your lack of response on that particular point, that you feel I was right?
But one last thing... RVP hasn't made a mark?
That's got to be a joke. Surely.
Couldn't agree more with regard to the Glazers, Winston, 100% with you there. RVP? Has he really been that good? And, how old is he?
JimmyTheRed
JimmyTheRed (U1682)
Fair enough, thanks.
RVP's contribution last season made the transfer worthwhile in most United fan's views.
He wasn't bought as an asset - we know he is getting on a bit and his sell on value will be low.
But without him last year, would we have won the league?
I doubt it.
Sign in if you want to comment
Official...moyes gone.
Page 2 of 2
posted on 22/4/14
"They don't realise that the same thingy is central to all matters ManU"
I don't think that's true.
These aren't some fly-by-night merchants that have no idea what they're doing... they know full well how to run a successful sports club and make money from it.
I don't agree with things that they have done, but I don't think they're naïve to what the club needs to be up there and competing.
posted on 22/4/14
Good response Winston, a true fan, supporting your club. Now, a simple question. Please name all of the world-class players that the Glazers and Rudolph have signed, say 2007-13.
JimmyTheRed
posted on 22/4/14
World class is debatable.
How many world class players did we sign before they took over?
Here's a list of high profile signings, for significant sums:
Tevez
Nani
Anderson
Hargreaves
Berbatov
Valencia
Jones
De Gea
Young
Van Persie
Fellaini
Mata
A fair chunk of money spent.
Yes, I do believe that they're keeping tighter purse strings than owners of a different ilk, because their sole objective is to make money out of the club.
But I don't believe for a minute that they don't understand that investment is required to keep the club successful.
posted on 22/4/14
I also don't think that getting rid of Moyes means that the philosophy of a long term approach needs to change.
====================================================
No, it doesn’t need to, but the question is whether it will. I think this is a more critical juncture for United than who the manager is. Getting rid of Hicks and Gillett was a much more critical juncture for us than getting rid of Hodgson (whos was really just seen as “their man”, and was either unlucky enough, or daft enough , to be caught in the middle of it).
I’m not saying it will fail, and United’s revenues will almost certainly ensure that it won’t ever get worse than it is now, but FSG admit they made mistakes in their first year or two, before they realised that the model for American sports ownership needed to be modified quite a lot for English football.
It remains to be seen whether the Glazers will follow the American Sports model (for which different rules apply, because their sports are administered differently). I wouldn’t even say that we are out of those particular woods yet, either, though we’ve taken a couple of very promising turns.
This is the first big test of of it. for the Glazers.
====================================================
If they think it's the wrong fit, as do many of us now, then they need to act.
====================================================
That’s just the thing: what’s the criterion for deciding it’s the wrong fit? Did Ferguson look like the right fit, after he’d been there 5 years and managed 3 bottom-half finishes?
I would suggest to you that he didn’t. Fortunately for United fans, the board (and Charlton in particular) could see past that, but if you’re looking for a long-term model, how do you know?
How can you judge a long-term project on a short-term basis? (and yes, I know that the money will ensure that nobody will ever be as as long-termist as United were with Ferguson...but less than one season?).
I think the same thing about Directors of Football. In this country, we judge them after two years, and point to the players they bought that didn’t work out, but that is to completely misunderstand the model. I do not believe that the Glazers don’t understand the need to invest: I think they almost certainly do. The question is: how short-term does the return on that investment need to be?
We’ll find out over the next few seasons, and it will be central to the question of whether there has been a sea-change in the identity of your club.
I think this took Gary Neville by surprise, he has maintained all season that they simply wouldn’t do it, (even while being critical of Moyes).
posted on 22/4/14
Wessie Road (U10652)
I agree, but the answers to those questions don't have quantitative answers, in my opinion.
Rodgers is a fantastic example, now.
Most Liverpool fans I know saw the plan. They didn't need points, stats etc. to tell them what their eyes could see, which was a different approach on the pitch.
Ultimately, there's no recipe or formula. It comes down to gut feel and instinct.
Man Utd will give their manager the basis to build for the long term, but the management of the club will use their own interpretation of events to decide whether they've got the right man.
If it looks like a sheep and it sounds like a sheep, it's probably a sheep.
posted on 22/4/14
If it looks like a sheep and it sounds like a sheep, it's probably a sheep
=====================================================
Oh, I don't know about that, Winston. Fergie looked like a sheep and sounded like a sheep, but turned out to be an old goat.
At the moment, there's a lot of scientific research about "instinctive thinking", (as per books like "Thinking Fast, Thinking Slow" ) and jin particular just how wrong it can be. Daniel Levy looks to me like a fan of "instinctive thinking".
But you're a master debater, Winston, and it'll be interesting to see how things unfold. I think it's different from the Hodgson case, in the sense that we didn't just want him out, we wanted the whole regime out, not least because it was patently obvious, they were going to be short-termist, while claiming otherwise.
posted on 22/4/14
Wessie Road (U10652)
- Nice one!
I agree it's different in many respects, though there are some similarities.
Maybe instinctive thinking was the wrong term. In fact, it was definitely the wrong term.
But what I mean we cannot sit here and agree a formula for a long term plan now.
A good CEO, Managing Director or even Manager will be able to assess what's going on in his or her organisation and make decisions based on what they conclude.
'What's going on' should not, in my view, be confined to points, statistics etc.
posted on 22/4/14
'What's going on' should not, in my view, be confined to points, statistics etc.
===============================================
No, that can be very wrong too....it's only ever easy in hindsight (which, let's face it, is what most of us fans do)
posted on 22/4/14
I don't think a gut feeling should come into it. You have to have reasons. For me, if results aren't good, you have to see the direction the manager is implementing and believe it will work in future, if you don't believe in the direction and don't feel it's going to work, then you make the change.
For example, I felt Dalglish should go, despite us not going backwards, getting to cup finals etc as I just didn't see the direction. I saw it clearly last season under Rodgers, despite no cup finals and one position higher in the table. It has then continued on this season, massively. I still see the clear direction we're going, the tactics and how they could evolve in the coming season.
posted on 22/4/14
Winston, well done, good effort. Perhaps I should have included "successful" in the options. With the exception of De Gea, none of the others, in my view, have exactly set the world alight. Young, I must confess, was a player I expected to see really shine at OT, but it hasn't happened. Fellaini isn't and never will be a United player. Neither RVP nor Mata have made their mark. I accept that no all of our signings have been blinding successes, but it seems we are doing better than you, and our youth teams are beginning to deliver.
JimmyTheRed
posted on 23/4/14
JimmyTheRed (U1682)
Regardless of what you think about who has or hasn't been a success, the point we were discussing was whether the Glazers are prepared to invest in keeping the club successful.
I assume from your lack of response on that particular point, that you feel I was right?
But one last thing... RVP hasn't made a mark?
That's got to be a joke. Surely.
posted on 23/4/14
Couldn't agree more with regard to the Glazers, Winston, 100% with you there. RVP? Has he really been that good? And, how old is he?
JimmyTheRed
posted on 24/4/14
JimmyTheRed (U1682)
Fair enough, thanks.
RVP's contribution last season made the transfer worthwhile in most United fan's views.
He wasn't bought as an asset - we know he is getting on a bit and his sell on value will be low.
But without him last year, would we have won the league?
I doubt it.
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