Yes.
I'll admit to it being a frustrating system though. We can't always carry it off, and when we don't we look awful, but when we do we look unplayable. Its getting consistent that is the key for me, and that'll just take a bit of time with all these new players.
I won't panic until around 10 games. I think by then we'll look awesome, and as long as we're not 20 points behind the playoffs it'll be fine.
Wasn't it just easier when every team played 4-4-2. Everybody knew their role, was used to playing it week in week out and the fans also knew what was supposed to be going off.
I'm not a great fan of the diamond because it tends to end up too narrow and midfielders find it difficult to know their responsibilities when defending.
Either 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 are fine formations, and 4-3-3 accomodates more of our better players that 4-4-2. However, I think there is an argument for a flat 4-4-2 against Forest because we can expect to come under pressure and need to keep things tight.
After all, what's the first thing you should do after losing 2 games? Keep a clean sheet.
Having said that, my line-up would be the same whether playing 4-4-2 or 4-3-3:
Shcmeichel
Peltier
Mills
Bamba
Koncheskey
Danns (Right mid if 4-4-2)
King
Wellens
Gallagher
Vassell
Nugent
Look at the majority of best teams across the world - Barcelona, Real Madrid, Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenahm, Ac Milan, Inter milan
#But we're not these team. I would like to see Howard at some point tomorrow.
"I'm not a great fan of the diamond because it tends to end up too narrow and midfielders find it difficult to know their responsibilities when defending."
Spot On with that one - it's the most difficult system to play in my view.
The 4-3-3? Yes, the top teams play it but unfortunately they have the top players too! 4-3-3 is very hard to play against but if you get it wrong..........well, we've all seen what happens eh.
With the quality of players we have, playing the 4-4-2 will give us the best chance of getting out of this division. The system is all about winning personal battles, matching man for man against your opponents.
So in a long winded way, I'm saying lets go 4-4-2
Round pegs on round holes. We don't have any out and out wingers that are good enough in my opinion, so I wouldn't play system needing out and out wingers.
I also can't see how 433 could be that confusing to defend with. When we don't have, the ball the two wide players from the front come back to help the full back out; the two outside mids track the runs of their centre mids, and assuming the other team is playing 442, that leaves the centre of our midfield trio free follow play and sweep up.
The key issue, and this is what we're not doing right at the minute, is that when we win the ball back and play it quick to Nugent, someone has to burst their lungs to go support him. He's surprised me in how good he is at winning and holding the ball up, but there's never anyone for him to off load to.
Cantle - a formation needs to suit the players you have at your disposal. And i don't think we have the right players to play 4-3-3.
I've got a funny feeling that if sven gets a new striker in we will revert to 4-4-2.
Anyway for what it's worth my team would be
Schmeichel
Peltier -- Bamba -- Mills -- Konchesky
Danns -- Abe -- Fernandes
King
Nugent -- Howard
Dunge - Danns right mid doesn't work. He's a CM. He's a good player, and I really rate him....but he's not a right sided player.
Aaron - I know we're not those teams. However, my point was that everyone is slating the formation, and saying it's a rubbish formation - It's clearly not if those teams use it.
I didn't like him on the wing in a 4-3-3, but I consider the wing of a 4-4-2 a different position and a different challenge. (Particularly away from home.)
Besides which, he has played there before - he admitted however that he hasn't played as far forward as in the 4-3-3.
Sven's always said he wants to play 4-4-2. We don't have enough/any wide players to do this. We could play Gally on one wing, but who on the other? Dyer for me, isn't good enough.
If we're wanting to play 4-4-2, we need to clear out 3 centre mids - who would go? and sign a winger and a striker.
I can't help but think we've overloaded on centre mids, forcing sven to accomodate 3 of them instead of 2.
I don't think Oakley will play for the club again, which leaves;
Fernandes
Danns
Johnson
Wellens
King
Abe
6 centre mids, for 2 CM positions? Seems a bit dodgy if you ask me.
It's a strange one because last season our 4-3-3 didn't inhibit our attacking play. What we really needed last season was a holding player to sit and protect the back four and we didn't have that. This season we have Fernandes so, in theory, it should work.
The main problem I think this season is the lack of support Nugent is getting. Ideally, you want the two wide-men in a three man attack to tuck-in and support the striker when attacking otherwise it becomes a 4-5-1. I have no idea why Gally and Dyer didn't do that on Wednesday (Gally was very good at it last season). However, it's not happening this season and King isn't making those forward runs as frequently now either so Nugent get left very isolated.
The 4-4-2 can be very easy to defend against if you try and play through midfield I think because it's very rigid and doesn't allow for much movement or 1-2's or triangles in midfield. Another problem is that we don't have good enough wide players to play that system.
The diamond however, doesn't require wide players as the two 'wider' players are tucked in so you get the joys of the midfield three (the one sitting and the two tucked in) whilst also eradicating the problem of having an isolated front man. The problem is of course width but as long as the full-backs do get forward they can provide us with that and Peltier particularly is decent going forward and Konchesky isn't too bad either - they just haven't had the chance because the wide men have stayed too wide and not given them the space.
Also Dunge's point about not knowing your roles, well surely that's upto the manager to make sure they do know their roles. When we're attacking, I would like to see us rotate positions and move the opposition around rather than staying in fixed, rigid positions which makes us easy to defend against.
When defending, the sitting midfielder just shadows and protects the back-four and the two wider midfielders go wider and the man at the point comes deeper then when we get the ball, the wider men tuck in and look to receive the ball and work it in midfield and the full-backs go forward into the vacated space whilst the man at the point tries to play in between the defence and midfield (if possible drawing one of the CB's to him). It's not too hard a system to understand.
Norwich last season played the diamond very well and Lambert made sure they all knew their roles within it so as long as Sven makes sure they do know their jobs that shouldn't be a problem. I would probably have:
Schmeichel
Peltier - Mills - Bamba - Konchesky
Fernandes
Wellens - King/Danns
Gallagher
Vassell - Nugent
Having read thorough this thread I was getting frustrated until I read Greatness last post who I think has it spot on!
Ignore the keeper and defence. In my opinion, it picks itself with Schmeichel, Peltier, Bamba, Mills and Konchesky.
Last year I bleated on about us needing a defensive midfielder to make our formation work. We scored goals but conceeded too many.
Hello Fernandes - EXACTLY the player I was thinking of.
So why isn't it working? I agree with Greatness - the forward thinking wide players are not supporting Nugent. We need a forward and a wide player in my opinion. Gallagher is not up to the job.
I would play 4-3-3. It suits our players.
Fernades holding
Wellens and one of King/Danns/Gally
Nugent and Vassel/new winger
New striker
I agree with the wise words of greatness.
The bit refering to 4.5.1. is exactly how we finish up playing.
We have no width because we have no players in the squad who will supply it. Whether we play 4-42 or 4-3-3 it doesn't matter.
We may as well play 4-2-2-2, and accept that we have no width.
Wellens Fernandes
King/Johnson Gallagher/Danns
Nugent Vassell/Howard
the issue is not we play a 4-3-3 style formation, its we play it in a more 4-5-1 style. Gallagher is not a wide player he needs freedom.
I don't understand why all of a sudden everyone is banding around "Gally is not good enough" Last year, he could do no wrong.
Disappointly, it's not worked for him so far, but then he's only started one game.
He played out wide last year, and did a very good job.
Just don't get me started !
We cannot play 4-3-3. I suspect (or hope) your Barca, Real Madrid etc comparisons were somewhat tongue-in-cheek. If not, you really need to come off that medication!
A few home truths;
Playing this formation last season ( some good quality loan players) we faltered badly towards the end of the season and finished 10th.
We were amongst the top scorers but only 6 teams conceded the same amount or more goals.
After 6 games last season, we only had 5 points. We have two tough fixtures ahead and could end up in broadly the same position this year, unless the situation improves dramatically.
Against the top six teams last year, we won 3 matches and lost 9.
Now try and convince me 4-3-3 works!
I have banged on about this so many times but the point is that we are outnumbered in midfield with only 3. The "supporting" strikers don't support and in my opinion, one of the wing-backs isn't quick enough to support the midfield.
Sorry Sven, but you need a wide left midfielder/winger and a decent striker (Maynard) and you need to play the diamond. Alternatively, start smartening up your C.V !
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The Formation Debate - Pro 4-3-3
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posted on 19/8/11
Yes.
I'll admit to it being a frustrating system though. We can't always carry it off, and when we don't we look awful, but when we do we look unplayable. Its getting consistent that is the key for me, and that'll just take a bit of time with all these new players.
I won't panic until around 10 games. I think by then we'll look awesome, and as long as we're not 20 points behind the playoffs it'll be fine.
posted on 19/8/11
Wasn't it just easier when every team played 4-4-2. Everybody knew their role, was used to playing it week in week out and the fans also knew what was supposed to be going off.
posted on 19/8/11
I'm not a great fan of the diamond because it tends to end up too narrow and midfielders find it difficult to know their responsibilities when defending.
Either 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 are fine formations, and 4-3-3 accomodates more of our better players that 4-4-2. However, I think there is an argument for a flat 4-4-2 against Forest because we can expect to come under pressure and need to keep things tight.
After all, what's the first thing you should do after losing 2 games? Keep a clean sheet.
Having said that, my line-up would be the same whether playing 4-4-2 or 4-3-3:
Shcmeichel
Peltier
Mills
Bamba
Koncheskey
Danns (Right mid if 4-4-2)
King
Wellens
Gallagher
Vassell
Nugent
posted on 19/8/11
Look at the majority of best teams across the world - Barcelona, Real Madrid, Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenahm, Ac Milan, Inter milan
#But we're not these team. I would like to see Howard at some point tomorrow.
posted on 19/8/11
"I'm not a great fan of the diamond because it tends to end up too narrow and midfielders find it difficult to know their responsibilities when defending."
Spot On with that one - it's the most difficult system to play in my view.
The 4-3-3? Yes, the top teams play it but unfortunately they have the top players too! 4-3-3 is very hard to play against but if you get it wrong..........well, we've all seen what happens eh.
With the quality of players we have, playing the 4-4-2 will give us the best chance of getting out of this division. The system is all about winning personal battles, matching man for man against your opponents.
So in a long winded way, I'm saying lets go 4-4-2
posted on 19/8/11
Round pegs on round holes. We don't have any out and out wingers that are good enough in my opinion, so I wouldn't play system needing out and out wingers.
I also can't see how 433 could be that confusing to defend with. When we don't have, the ball the two wide players from the front come back to help the full back out; the two outside mids track the runs of their centre mids, and assuming the other team is playing 442, that leaves the centre of our midfield trio free follow play and sweep up.
The key issue, and this is what we're not doing right at the minute, is that when we win the ball back and play it quick to Nugent, someone has to burst their lungs to go support him. He's surprised me in how good he is at winning and holding the ball up, but there's never anyone for him to off load to.
posted on 19/8/11
Cantle - a formation needs to suit the players you have at your disposal. And i don't think we have the right players to play 4-3-3.
I've got a funny feeling that if sven gets a new striker in we will revert to 4-4-2.
Anyway for what it's worth my team would be
Schmeichel
Peltier -- Bamba -- Mills -- Konchesky
Danns -- Abe -- Fernandes
King
Nugent -- Howard
posted on 19/8/11
Dunge - Danns right mid doesn't work. He's a CM. He's a good player, and I really rate him....but he's not a right sided player.
Aaron - I know we're not those teams. However, my point was that everyone is slating the formation, and saying it's a rubbish formation - It's clearly not if those teams use it.
posted on 19/8/11
I didn't like him on the wing in a 4-3-3, but I consider the wing of a 4-4-2 a different position and a different challenge. (Particularly away from home.)
Besides which, he has played there before - he admitted however that he hasn't played as far forward as in the 4-3-3.
posted on 19/8/11
Sven's always said he wants to play 4-4-2. We don't have enough/any wide players to do this. We could play Gally on one wing, but who on the other? Dyer for me, isn't good enough.
If we're wanting to play 4-4-2, we need to clear out 3 centre mids - who would go? and sign a winger and a striker.
I can't help but think we've overloaded on centre mids, forcing sven to accomodate 3 of them instead of 2.
I don't think Oakley will play for the club again, which leaves;
Fernandes
Danns
Johnson
Wellens
King
Abe
6 centre mids, for 2 CM positions? Seems a bit dodgy if you ask me.
posted on 19/8/11
It's a strange one because last season our 4-3-3 didn't inhibit our attacking play. What we really needed last season was a holding player to sit and protect the back four and we didn't have that. This season we have Fernandes so, in theory, it should work.
The main problem I think this season is the lack of support Nugent is getting. Ideally, you want the two wide-men in a three man attack to tuck-in and support the striker when attacking otherwise it becomes a 4-5-1. I have no idea why Gally and Dyer didn't do that on Wednesday (Gally was very good at it last season). However, it's not happening this season and King isn't making those forward runs as frequently now either so Nugent get left very isolated.
The 4-4-2 can be very easy to defend against if you try and play through midfield I think because it's very rigid and doesn't allow for much movement or 1-2's or triangles in midfield. Another problem is that we don't have good enough wide players to play that system.
The diamond however, doesn't require wide players as the two 'wider' players are tucked in so you get the joys of the midfield three (the one sitting and the two tucked in) whilst also eradicating the problem of having an isolated front man. The problem is of course width but as long as the full-backs do get forward they can provide us with that and Peltier particularly is decent going forward and Konchesky isn't too bad either - they just haven't had the chance because the wide men have stayed too wide and not given them the space.
Also Dunge's point about not knowing your roles, well surely that's upto the manager to make sure they do know their roles. When we're attacking, I would like to see us rotate positions and move the opposition around rather than staying in fixed, rigid positions which makes us easy to defend against.
When defending, the sitting midfielder just shadows and protects the back-four and the two wider midfielders go wider and the man at the point comes deeper then when we get the ball, the wider men tuck in and look to receive the ball and work it in midfield and the full-backs go forward into the vacated space whilst the man at the point tries to play in between the defence and midfield (if possible drawing one of the CB's to him). It's not too hard a system to understand.
Norwich last season played the diamond very well and Lambert made sure they all knew their roles within it so as long as Sven makes sure they do know their jobs that shouldn't be a problem. I would probably have:
Schmeichel
Peltier - Mills - Bamba - Konchesky
Fernandes
Wellens - King/Danns
Gallagher
Vassell - Nugent
posted on 19/8/11
Having read thorough this thread I was getting frustrated until I read Greatness last post who I think has it spot on!
Ignore the keeper and defence. In my opinion, it picks itself with Schmeichel, Peltier, Bamba, Mills and Konchesky.
Last year I bleated on about us needing a defensive midfielder to make our formation work. We scored goals but conceeded too many.
Hello Fernandes - EXACTLY the player I was thinking of.
So why isn't it working? I agree with Greatness - the forward thinking wide players are not supporting Nugent. We need a forward and a wide player in my opinion. Gallagher is not up to the job.
I would play 4-3-3. It suits our players.
Fernades holding
Wellens and one of King/Danns/Gally
Nugent and Vassel/new winger
New striker
posted on 19/8/11
I agree with the wise words of greatness.
The bit refering to 4.5.1. is exactly how we finish up playing.
posted on 19/8/11
We have no width because we have no players in the squad who will supply it. Whether we play 4-42 or 4-3-3 it doesn't matter.
We may as well play 4-2-2-2, and accept that we have no width.
Wellens Fernandes
King/Johnson Gallagher/Danns
Nugent Vassell/Howard
posted on 19/8/11
the issue is not we play a 4-3-3 style formation, its we play it in a more 4-5-1 style. Gallagher is not a wide player he needs freedom.
posted on 19/8/11
I don't understand why all of a sudden everyone is banding around "Gally is not good enough" Last year, he could do no wrong.
Disappointly, it's not worked for him so far, but then he's only started one game.
He played out wide last year, and did a very good job.
posted on 20/8/11
Just don't get me started !
We cannot play 4-3-3. I suspect (or hope) your Barca, Real Madrid etc comparisons were somewhat tongue-in-cheek. If not, you really need to come off that medication!
A few home truths;
Playing this formation last season ( some good quality loan players) we faltered badly towards the end of the season and finished 10th.
We were amongst the top scorers but only 6 teams conceded the same amount or more goals.
After 6 games last season, we only had 5 points. We have two tough fixtures ahead and could end up in broadly the same position this year, unless the situation improves dramatically.
Against the top six teams last year, we won 3 matches and lost 9.
Now try and convince me 4-3-3 works!
I have banged on about this so many times but the point is that we are outnumbered in midfield with only 3. The "supporting" strikers don't support and in my opinion, one of the wing-backs isn't quick enough to support the midfield.
Sorry Sven, but you need a wide left midfielder/winger and a decent striker (Maynard) and you need to play the diamond. Alternatively, start smartening up your C.V !
Page 1 of 1