What I think was that it was too early the past couple of years to start talking about Vettel as one of the all time greats
I still think he's around Piquet Snr's level rather than Senna/Prost.
would have been interesting to have seen vettel and hamilton together at red bull during 2013 -
however it would seem that vettel had a very unique technique for the EBD era that he obviously developed into a near art form for that specific era as his 4 WDC titles would seem to suggest -
it would also seem that horner believes that vettel understood the pirelli tyres better than any other driver during 2013 -
------ would hamilton or any other driver have been able to have extracted as much as vettel did from the tyres or the EBD in that era and in 2013
------- not according to horner they would"nt --
http://www.espn.co.uk/redbull/motorsport/story/133945.html
Something we'll never actually know now MA. Anything else is pure speculation and personal opinion.
"however it would seem that vettel had a very unique technique for the EBD era that he obviously developed into a near art form for that specific era as his 4 WDC titles would seem to suggest -"
That and the flexing front wings
comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 9 minutes ago
"however it would seem that vettel had a very unique technique for the EBD era that he obviously developed into a near art form for that specific era as his 4 WDC titles would seem to suggest -"
That and the flexing front wings
----------------------------------------------------------------------
that were deemed legal by the FIA
Wow, Horner praising his own driver. A truly unbiased opinion. The same Horner that whined until the tyres were changed in 2013, right?
An unbiased view; But Spaniard Alonso thinks Hamilton is better than the Red Bull star.
"Lewis is so fast, aggressive, totally focused. He is interested only in victory.
"Sebastian has not quite reached that level," he told Germany's Sport Bild.
I'm not a Vettel fan because I will always support British drivers first and I believe the advantage he has had is so great and has been since 2009 when I think he should also have won the championship. Red Bull have cosseted Vettel and let him get away with things he should have been punished for in the past and now he is, so it would appear from the outside, to some extent unable to deal with the change in his situation. But I do believe this sort of treatment of a driver is extremely negative and does the team no good, as well as harms the driver concerned. Frank Williams used to say you can treat a driver like a light bulb, unplug one and plug in another. I believe that attitude has helped lead to his many years in the wilderness. Great talent should be valued, especially when a company is paying millions a year for it. Negative and unhelpful attitude to the driver by Red Bull. No change there then.
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 1 minute ago
Wow, Horner praising his own driver. A truly unbiased opinion. The same Horner that whined until the tyres were changed in 2013, right?
An unbiased view; But Spaniard Alonso thinks Hamilton is better than the Red Bull star.
"Lewis is so fast, aggressive, totally focused. He is interested only in victory.
"Sebastian has not quite reached that level," he told Germany's Sport Bild.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeh but then again after the silverstone debacle pirelli were forced to rethink there tyre specifications anyway so it was a good job that team principles reminded pirelli of there responsibilities , what was pirelli supposed to do - keep producing tyres that would endanger the lives of the drivers ?
as for who said what about whatever drivers -
--------- as i said we can all find a little link by whatever respected expert that will say what we want to hear when we want to hear it
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/111829
I wonder why Vettel is unable to adapt to a different car.
I can see that the Red Bull has been overtaken by Mercedes this season as the overall best package on the grid.
But I can't understand how Vettel is not at least beating his team mate and getting as much from the car that he can.
Now I think Senna/Prost both drove cars that weren't the best at least Prost in 1991 and Senna in 1993. Yet despite the fact that they couldn't win the world championship they still a) both comfortable beat their teammates + b) Senna outperformed what the car would achieve in pretty much anyone elses hands.
For me, unless Vettel can get the best out any machinery he has then he's got a problem being defined as one of the greatest.
welshy
from what i can gather reading little snippets here and there vettel developed such a unique technique with the EBD cars that won him his 4 WDC it is now taking him time to adapt and refine that technique now the EBD has gone -
the signs in the last couple of races that he is getting there but like all things that are so personal and akin to what amounts to a black art that is to complex for any of us to understand it will probably take a little bit of time -
Ricciardo had less testing time and has adapted but a. 4. Time champ is struggling? Give me a break
comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 10 minutes ago
MA you crack me up..
----------------------------------------------------------------------
very glad to hear it go cell -- always like to bring a little bit of logical thought and merriment into a fellow forum bruvver"s existence on here -
-------- glad i can be of assistance to you fellow bruvver
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 15 minutes ago
Ricciardo had less testing time and has adapted but a. 4. Time champ is struggling? Give me a break
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yet but then again DR never honed his technique to such a degree with the EBD in tune with the pirelli tyres that vettel did hence why there is a certain logic in thinking it is taking vettel a little longer to adapt --
Does this make Vettel a one dimensional driver - Can only drive well in a car that is designed exactly to his liking?
This is where the difference lies between Vettel and Alonso for example.
Alonso always gets the best out of any car he drives. If he finishes higher than 5th in the Championship this season then I will take my hat off to him yet again. That Ferrari is a pile of tosh.
comment by Welshy (U1348)
posted 3 minutes ago
Does this make Vettel a one dimensional driver - Can only drive well in a car that is designed exactly to his liking?
This is where the difference lies between Vettel and Alonso for example.
Alonso always gets the best out of any car he drives. If he finishes higher than 5th in the Championship this season then I will take my hat off to him yet again. That Ferrari is a pile of tosh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
must admit all the signs are there that alonso has got a little bit more in his locker than all the rest of the current drivers -
Vettel has had a lot of bad luck so far this season. 3rd at Monaco until his car broke down and same at Aus. Canada he ould have won if his team didn't have a slow pit stop.
How could he have won in Canada? He was stuck behind Perez, then he would have had to have overtaken. Rosberg and then Ricciardo.
Nah. Ricciardo has had a lot of bad luck too, had a podium taken away from him in Australia and his race ruined in Malaysia or was it China as well.
Sorry, we have heard from many 'experts' on this forum that bad luck is not an excuse even if it costs you 2 world titles, so let us not start making excuses for Seb as we would have to make excuses for the driver we have been told to not make excuses for
Ricciardo only got pass Vettel in the pits because he had a slower stop and they bought him in to early. Don't let your Vettel hate get in the way
Vettel had the slower stop I mean.
Well considering Seb could not get close to Ricciardo it is safe to say Ricciardo was faster and would have overtaken him like he did with Perez and Rosberg.
Seb was stuck behind Perez and owes a lot to Perez for keeping Massa behind him or he would not have been on the podium
U19673, Vettel's stop was a mere 0.3s slower than Ricciardo's. Do you think that was enough to make the difference you suggest?
comment by (U19673)
posted 13 hours ago
Ricciardo only got pass Vettel in the pits because he had a slower stop and they bought him in to early. Don't let your Vettel hate get in the way
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the second unfounded claim you have made about the pitstops. First one is that there were seconds between their pitstops.
Daniel Ricciardo got past Sebastian Vettel after the 2nd pit stop. SV pitted on lap 36 when he was 1.2 secs ahead of DR. DR pitted on lap 37. SV total pit time lost was 23.340 secs compared to DR of 23.274 a difference of 0.066 lost through the pit. When both cars were back up to race speed SV was 0.5 secs behind DR. Therefore, SV lost a total of 1.6 secs (1.212 + 0.467 less 0.066) all by himself. The timing and duration of the pit stops were not the reasons why DR gained a place. He gained his position through his racing.
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Vettel told to 'Raise Game'
Page 1 of 2
posted on 13/6/14
What I think was that it was too early the past couple of years to start talking about Vettel as one of the all time greats
I still think he's around Piquet Snr's level rather than Senna/Prost.
posted on 14/6/14
Nail on head Welshy
posted on 14/6/14
would have been interesting to have seen vettel and hamilton together at red bull during 2013 -
however it would seem that vettel had a very unique technique for the EBD era that he obviously developed into a near art form for that specific era as his 4 WDC titles would seem to suggest -
it would also seem that horner believes that vettel understood the pirelli tyres better than any other driver during 2013 -
------ would hamilton or any other driver have been able to have extracted as much as vettel did from the tyres or the EBD in that era and in 2013
------- not according to horner they would"nt --
http://www.espn.co.uk/redbull/motorsport/story/133945.html
posted on 14/6/14
Something we'll never actually know now MA. Anything else is pure speculation and personal opinion.
posted on 14/6/14
"however it would seem that vettel had a very unique technique for the EBD era that he obviously developed into a near art form for that specific era as his 4 WDC titles would seem to suggest -"
That and the flexing front wings
posted on 14/6/14
comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 9 minutes ago
"however it would seem that vettel had a very unique technique for the EBD era that he obviously developed into a near art form for that specific era as his 4 WDC titles would seem to suggest -"
That and the flexing front wings
----------------------------------------------------------------------
that were deemed legal by the FIA
posted on 14/6/14
Wow, Horner praising his own driver. A truly unbiased opinion. The same Horner that whined until the tyres were changed in 2013, right?
An unbiased view; But Spaniard Alonso thinks Hamilton is better than the Red Bull star.
"Lewis is so fast, aggressive, totally focused. He is interested only in victory.
"Sebastian has not quite reached that level," he told Germany's Sport Bild.
posted on 14/6/14
I'm not a Vettel fan because I will always support British drivers first and I believe the advantage he has had is so great and has been since 2009 when I think he should also have won the championship. Red Bull have cosseted Vettel and let him get away with things he should have been punished for in the past and now he is, so it would appear from the outside, to some extent unable to deal with the change in his situation. But I do believe this sort of treatment of a driver is extremely negative and does the team no good, as well as harms the driver concerned. Frank Williams used to say you can treat a driver like a light bulb, unplug one and plug in another. I believe that attitude has helped lead to his many years in the wilderness. Great talent should be valued, especially when a company is paying millions a year for it. Negative and unhelpful attitude to the driver by Red Bull. No change there then.
posted on 14/6/14
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 1 minute ago
Wow, Horner praising his own driver. A truly unbiased opinion. The same Horner that whined until the tyres were changed in 2013, right?
An unbiased view; But Spaniard Alonso thinks Hamilton is better than the Red Bull star.
"Lewis is so fast, aggressive, totally focused. He is interested only in victory.
"Sebastian has not quite reached that level," he told Germany's Sport Bild.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeh but then again after the silverstone debacle pirelli were forced to rethink there tyre specifications anyway so it was a good job that team principles reminded pirelli of there responsibilities , what was pirelli supposed to do - keep producing tyres that would endanger the lives of the drivers ?
as for who said what about whatever drivers -
--------- as i said we can all find a little link by whatever respected expert that will say what we want to hear when we want to hear it
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/111829
posted on 14/6/14
I wonder why Vettel is unable to adapt to a different car.
I can see that the Red Bull has been overtaken by Mercedes this season as the overall best package on the grid.
But I can't understand how Vettel is not at least beating his team mate and getting as much from the car that he can.
Now I think Senna/Prost both drove cars that weren't the best at least Prost in 1991 and Senna in 1993. Yet despite the fact that they couldn't win the world championship they still a) both comfortable beat their teammates + b) Senna outperformed what the car would achieve in pretty much anyone elses hands.
For me, unless Vettel can get the best out any machinery he has then he's got a problem being defined as one of the greatest.
posted on 14/6/14
welshy
from what i can gather reading little snippets here and there vettel developed such a unique technique with the EBD cars that won him his 4 WDC it is now taking him time to adapt and refine that technique now the EBD has gone -
the signs in the last couple of races that he is getting there but like all things that are so personal and akin to what amounts to a black art that is to complex for any of us to understand it will probably take a little bit of time -
posted on 14/6/14
MA you crack me up..
posted on 14/6/14
Ricciardo had less testing time and has adapted but a. 4. Time champ is struggling? Give me a break
posted on 14/6/14
comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 10 minutes ago
MA you crack me up..
----------------------------------------------------------------------
very glad to hear it go cell -- always like to bring a little bit of logical thought and merriment into a fellow forum bruvver"s existence on here -
-------- glad i can be of assistance to you fellow bruvver
posted on 14/6/14
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 15 minutes ago
Ricciardo had less testing time and has adapted but a. 4. Time champ is struggling? Give me a break
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yet but then again DR never honed his technique to such a degree with the EBD in tune with the pirelli tyres that vettel did hence why there is a certain logic in thinking it is taking vettel a little longer to adapt --
posted on 14/6/14
Does this make Vettel a one dimensional driver - Can only drive well in a car that is designed exactly to his liking?
This is where the difference lies between Vettel and Alonso for example.
Alonso always gets the best out of any car he drives. If he finishes higher than 5th in the Championship this season then I will take my hat off to him yet again. That Ferrari is a pile of tosh.
posted on 14/6/14
comment by Welshy (U1348)
posted 3 minutes ago
Does this make Vettel a one dimensional driver - Can only drive well in a car that is designed exactly to his liking?
This is where the difference lies between Vettel and Alonso for example.
Alonso always gets the best out of any car he drives. If he finishes higher than 5th in the Championship this season then I will take my hat off to him yet again. That Ferrari is a pile of tosh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
must admit all the signs are there that alonso has got a little bit more in his locker than all the rest of the current drivers -
posted on 15/6/14
Vettel has had a lot of bad luck so far this season. 3rd at Monaco until his car broke down and same at Aus. Canada he ould have won if his team didn't have a slow pit stop.
posted on 15/6/14
How could he have won in Canada? He was stuck behind Perez, then he would have had to have overtaken. Rosberg and then Ricciardo.
Nah. Ricciardo has had a lot of bad luck too, had a podium taken away from him in Australia and his race ruined in Malaysia or was it China as well.
Sorry, we have heard from many 'experts' on this forum that bad luck is not an excuse even if it costs you 2 world titles, so let us not start making excuses for Seb as we would have to make excuses for the driver we have been told to not make excuses for
posted on 15/6/14
Ricciardo only got pass Vettel in the pits because he had a slower stop and they bought him in to early. Don't let your Vettel hate get in the way
posted on 15/6/14
Vettel had the slower stop I mean.
posted on 15/6/14
Well considering Seb could not get close to Ricciardo it is safe to say Ricciardo was faster and would have overtaken him like he did with Perez and Rosberg.
Seb was stuck behind Perez and owes a lot to Perez for keeping Massa behind him or he would not have been on the podium
posted on 15/6/14
U19673, Vettel's stop was a mere 0.3s slower than Ricciardo's. Do you think that was enough to make the difference you suggest?
posted on 16/6/14
comment by (U19673)
posted 13 hours ago
Ricciardo only got pass Vettel in the pits because he had a slower stop and they bought him in to early. Don't let your Vettel hate get in the way
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the second unfounded claim you have made about the pitstops. First one is that there were seconds between their pitstops.
posted on 16/6/14
Daniel Ricciardo got past Sebastian Vettel after the 2nd pit stop. SV pitted on lap 36 when he was 1.2 secs ahead of DR. DR pitted on lap 37. SV total pit time lost was 23.340 secs compared to DR of 23.274 a difference of 0.066 lost through the pit. When both cars were back up to race speed SV was 0.5 secs behind DR. Therefore, SV lost a total of 1.6 secs (1.212 + 0.467 less 0.066) all by himself. The timing and duration of the pit stops were not the reasons why DR gained a place. He gained his position through his racing.
Page 1 of 2