voodoo chile

Fireworks ring out all over Catalunya!!!!! Bye bye espanya, somebody get the lights on the way out!!!

Adios Spana!

a la merda espanya

comment by Mr Chelsea ✪ (U3579)
posted 4 days, 7 hours ago
Struggling to think of what Spain actually did with the ball when they had it.
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Again..

comment by TheChameleonProject (U1847)
posted 4 days, 7 hours ago
That wasn't a loss.
That was a beating.
No comebacks from that
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Fireworks ring out all over Catalunya!!!!! Bye bye espanya, somebody get the lights on the way out!!!

.................

4 yrs ago they were all singing in the street in cataluna

xiu..nobody likes fickle, duplicitous

comment by pekster11 (U6618)
posted 1 minute ago
Fireworks ring out all over Catalunya!!!!! Bye bye espanya, somebody get the lights on the way out!!!

.................

4 yrs ago they were all singing in the street in cataluna

xiu..nobody likes fickle, duplicitous


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Not here! But hey, dream on and believe what you wish!

https://twitter.com/GuillemBalague

your catalan brother feels different

He's a Fracophile. I bet he supports Espanyol and everything. Fatxas!

xiuxiuejar (U6109)
Is there any Catalan player who rejects Spanish call-ups to the national team? I'm sure there aren't. No way are you going to convince anyone that most Catalans reject Spanish success and cheer Spanish failure. Get real. I'm pretty sure I saw massive crowds in Barcelona celebrating Spain's World Cup win.

While I admit there have not been many, there have been Catalan and Basque players who have rejected call ups to the Spanish team. The last high profile example was Oleguer Presas.

But I question what it actually means to play for a country when you get Brazilians playing for Croatia, Portugal and Spain; Spaniards playing for Japan; Croats playing for Sweden etc etc. What about all the Englishmen who play for Scotland, Wales or Ireland?
Players just want to play on the international stage.

Moreover, I would suggest you find somebody to ask Fabregas, for example, what Spain means to him for example. For those who do not know, Fabregas comes from one of the most pro-Catalan towns -and his family live in Arenys de Munt (not de Mar) which was the first town to hold a referendum challenging the legality of the Spanish constitution in Catalunya.

Everybody is allowed their point of view but being criticised for a reality we have to love through is not really just.

And to answer your final point, Barcelona is a big city and in these large urban areas, Franco made sure that there was a patriation from the south of Spain - to dilute nationalism. So there are a lot of Spanish and South American emigrants and immigrants in these industrial and urban areas. However, when you move 2 towns outside them, there is not this mixture. It's like visiting London and asking where the English people are!

Quite simply, in Catalunya there is a split between those who consider themselves Spanish and those who are Catalan. And I believe I have every right to be the nationality I want to be.

And to answer your final point, Barcelona is a big city and in these large urban areas, Franco made sure that there was a patriation from the south of Spain - to dilute nationalism. So there are a lot of Spanish and South American emigrants and immigrants in these industrial and urban areas. However, when you move 2 towns outside them, there is not this mixture. It's like visiting London and asking where the English people are!
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So the Catalan aristocracy/bourgeois wanting cheap donkey labour who they could actually communicate with to work their factories in the industrial belt around Barcelona had nothing to do with it?

You learn something new every day.

It's so reassuring that no Catalans sided with Franco, and it's great that Catalonia has this deep-seated cultural sense of togetherness and unity, because when you finally gain your independence - and I see no reason why you shouldn't if that's what the majority wants - no one will be less than anybody else and no one will want to exploit anyone else. Without Castille to leech your resources, you will have free, quality healthcare and education for all, and a paid annual vacation in a destination of your choice. And once you have purged all the Castillian elements in your society, the current discrimination against racial, religious and national minorities will logically cease to exist as this is of course the working of the Castillians invaders.
I might just make use of my own Catalan heritage to claim nationality, up sticks and move to live in your new-found Utopia. My vote however will go to someone like ERC or IC (whatever they're called by then), just in case affluent Catalans turn out to be not so nice.

The problem is if I say nothing you think you "win". I'm afraid you have just shown your ignorance but never mind. I will leave it to small minded individuals to tell me what I have to feel and how I have to live. I obviously have no rights. Silly me to think that I deserved the same freedoms as people in the rest of the free world. Never mind.

Silly me to think that I deserved the same freedoms as people in the rest of the free world. Never mind.
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You are indeed silly, primarily because I've not only acknowledged that in my own post, I've actually agreed with it - not just above but umpteen times around these boards. You repeatedly fail to address any of the points I raise, quite simply imo because your attitude isn't born out of thought and reflection but mindless fanatism.

If you wish to know what it is born out of, just write "Franco Crimes" in Google and take an hour or two to read. Then read what the central government is doing to appease people. In fact, in English, there are a lot of resources in the Guardian Newspaper and the Telegraph. But again, as you are always right Mr High and Mighty - or at least that is what you are telling everybody, you have no need to read, you can just believe what is proliferated by our wonderfully balanced media and state structures because of course they never lie, and they have nothing to hide and they have nothing to lose from losing Catalunya or Pais Basc.

PS. If you read long enough you'll find out what happened in my town and to my family and to millions of others.

You seem to think the crimes were restricted to Catalonia and Euskadi. Followed the news much re mass graves and memoria histórica...think they're all over Spain matey. Also told you my views on the second issue time and time again, staunchly in favour of self-determination, I lean much more towards the ideas of ERC or Bildu than those of Spain's two main parties - water off a duck's árse to you though. You can't even recognise an ally to your cause because you're too intent on tarnishing all Spaniards with the same brush and aiming your insults in the general direction of 'over the border' . If you want to talk history, perhaps you could take a look at how much trouble those attitudes have caused in Europe over the past century.

Comment deleted by Article Creator

I'm not tarnishing anybody. It is you who is confusing the subject. I am not Spanish. Like it or forget it. The Spanish governments have never done anything for me apart from oppress me. Like it or not! I just don't give a flying **** what you say. You have not lived my life. You do not live in my shoes. You do not know my story. So I'll tell you what, when I speak about football and not liking the Spanish team or feeling anything for them, just accept it and don't throw insults at me based on my nationality whether you believe it or not. You preach tolerance and show none. Your foul rants based on half truths are nothing short of racism. If you cannot accept me for what I am, just forget about me and go and insult somebody else.

Whoa Spanish civil war!

wow,what a thread this turned into

xiu, first up, apologies if you felt insulted. I didn't mean to, but perhaps I made my points too strongly. I'll address that point in my next post. Please let me point out that I do have a lot of time for you. I'm very interested in exploring and understanding your viewpoint, and would like you to understand my own, ideally with both of us trying to make our points in a more civil manner.

Sometimes I get the impression that you think pekster and I are the same person or of the same persuasion, when the reality is that we hold radically opposite views on the Catalonia/Spain issue. Let me quickly recap mine to make sure we are on the same page:

- In political terms, I am not a nationalist of any persuasion, and I find traditional right-wing Spanish nationalism particularly abhorrent. Although I do not identify with them, I find Catalan and Basque nationalism easier to understand.

- Though not a nationalist myself, I am firmly in favour of peoples' right to self-determination. I am in favour of a Catalan (or Basque) referendum and if you/they chose to be independent, I would have no problem with that.

- In a future where we were officially separate nations, I would hope for an amicable, healthy and prosperous relationship for both countries as neighbours, no different to the one I have with my next door neighbours here.

- Imo the Basque and Catalan identities make Spain a better place. I would love you to feel it worked both ways, but if you don't that's not something that can be forced on you.

- My own grandparents were from Catalonia (Girona), Euskadi (Gipuzkoa), Asturias (Gijón) and Castille (Madrid). I am well comfortable with the result of all those identities. It might help to explain why I prefer diversity to uniformity but, again, this should never be at the expense of people being forced to belong to a state they do not wish to belong to. I really cannot stress this enough, because you seem convinced that I believe otherwise.

- For Spain, I would welcome a federal republic where people were free to leave if they so wished. I see the monarchy as anachronic and feel it is out of place in a democratic society.

- I am left-wing. As a society we are each responsible for each other (I also believe this is the most pragmatic approach, but that's for another discussion). I understand that those with more should contribute more than those who have less in order to ensure minimum standards for all. Coherent with this, under a single state I find it perfectly normal for the richer regions such as Madrid, Catalonia, Euskadi, Navarre etc, to aid the development of Extremadura, Andalusia or the Canary Islands, for example. I also believe that the closure of hospital wards in Catalonia or health centres in Castille is related to greed and the gross mismanagement of funds across Spain. The central government should of course shoulder a large part of the blame, but is by no means the only culprit. It is the poorer segments of the population who are being made to bear the brunt of the crisis and for me that is just plain wrong. I identify with the working classes, whether Castillian or Catalan and do not with the elites in either place.

I will now address the part about insults. Might take some time though!

Regarding the insults, I think the only term on this thread that you could take offence at is "silly", which I don't honestly think was too out of place in the context it was used. You accused me of wanting to impinge on your freedom, while all I have ever done in our conversations -and had done even in the actual post you were answering to- is precisely underline my own deep-seated belief in that right. I hope that my post above has done a bit more to clarify that point.

Whenever I have stated my points more strongly, it is because I myself have felt insulted. I don't have any problem whatsoever with you disliking Spain or the Spanish team, of course it's your right, but I have never to my recollection uttered expressions in the vein of "que os den por culo" or "Catalanes de mierda" because those thoughts have never crossed my mind. It's you, not me, who from time to time drifts around these boards using such terms in reference to the Spanish.

I honestly think you took my original post on this thread wrongly. I never denied nor intended to deny your claims - its primary aim was to point out that Franco also had support from elements within Catalan society. The impression is that you take Franco and Spaniards virtually as synonymous terms, and this is far removed from the truth - hence, when you invoked reading up on history, my later reference to mass graves being unearthed all over Spain, not just in the nationalist regions. People in every region in Spain sided with the Republic and were vindictively made to paid the price.

Of your personal history, I only know what you yourself have told me, and believe me that I do sympathise with the horrific plight of your family, but you have always depicted Franco's acts as being perpetrated on behalf of all Spain, and this is a major point of contention for me. When you brought this issue up some months ago on La Liga thread I explained how Franco's bombs wounded my own granddad and how mother faced death through starvation, but as I recall this seemed neither here nor there with you. The bottom line is that you define us all by being Spanish, and that that is enough for you to throw us all in the same broad category of people who hate and oppress Catalonia. How could I not take offence to that?

The second part of that initial post - arguably overly sarcastic and caustic - was to point out that I feel pinning the blame for all of Catalonia's current problems squarely on Spanish shoulders is wide of the mark. There are reactionary elements within your own society that should also be cause for concern. People like Josep Anglada -according to the image portayed by fellow Catalan (though perhaps on the payroll of the Spanish government?) Jordi Évole- worry me just as much as any element of FE de las JONS. The same corruption assailing Spain is rife in Catalonia. Liberal elements who would gladly privatise health and education to pocket the profits at the expense of the needy, are present in Catalonia as they are in Spain.
These things need to be dealt with regardless of whether it's as a part of Spain or as an independent Catalonia, and that, no more and no less, was the gist of that comment.

I have no idea what your basis for accusing me of racism is. I have no idea what you have in mind when you mention half-truths, when I don't deny many of the points you make and simply try to complete the picture - just as I have done multiple times when pekster has given me opposing views.

What I can tell you is that if more people across our nations made an effort to see things from both sides of the fence, there would be nowhere near as much trouble as there is. It would be far easier to live our lives in harmony, either under the same roof or as good, friendly neihbours.

It seems then that it is my turn to apologise. In my defence all this started because I was asked about my affinity to the Spanish national team and I gave my opinion. I also wish you to understand that I live in a part of Catalunya which is staunchly nationalist – not anti-Spanish nut pro-Catalan. I come from a town called Arenys de Munt, a town famous for many reasons. Outside, it is famous because it is where Cesc Fabregas’s family live – although I believe his mother is from Arenys de Mar. In Catalunya, it is more famous as the first town to hold an independence referendum questioning the legitimacy of the Spanish state in Catalunya. I still have a house here although I live 7 or 8 towns further up, just outside Barcelona, in an equally pro-Catalan town called Premia de Mar.

Our neighbouring towns have provided many pro-Catalan voices, La Trinca, a group formed in the 70s singing against Franco at a time when that was extremely dangerous, Els Comediants, an avante garde theatre group with messages of freedom and so on. We are not anti-Spanish but this is one of the Catalan heartlands. These towns are full of graves of our fallen heroes, houses with bullet holes clearly visible. The tyranny of Franco is still felt here despite his death more than 35 years ago. We have been told all our lives how to behave, the languages we can and can’t use, what we can teach our children. New laws are being passed now which will limit our freedom of speech and language. This in the 21st century!

I will also admit that some people calling for freedom go too far and want to take Valencia and the Balearic Islands. However, I believe that doing this would be just as tyrannous as imposing Spanish nationality on us is. These Paises Catalans as they are referred to belonged to the Catalunya many years ago but you cannot enforce Catalan identity on these people without them feeling how we feel now. And whatever happens, it has to be done in a good way, without persecution and reproach.

I must also add that if you listen to the Spanish government’s press, they will be telling you that there is no support for independence as Artur Mas’s party only got 25% of the vote in the last elections. However, what they fail to say is that the pro Catalan independence parties (there are 4) got nearly 70% of the popular vote and Esquerra Republicana (Republican Left) which is similar to the SNP is the biggest party. So at present there is widespread support for at least the possibility of independence or renegotiation of our role.

You must remember this is not as clear cut as is often presented. Look at the USSR, Ukraine, Crimea etc – it’s a real mess. Look at Turkey, Syria, and Cyprus etc. People (including myself) spin history for our own needs but history is not as important as the shared national consciousness of a people. Yes we eat Paella, but we hate bull-fighting, sombreros, flamenco and that god awful gypsy music. In fact we have more in common with the English than the Spanish and I am sure you know that Catalunya spent some time under English protection during its rather chequered history.

It leaves me saying this, I apologise for my own harsh words but when you live perceived oppression every day it is difficult not to become emotional. I also believe in respect for people and their right to self determination. Once again, I will also ask you to consider that what you hear coming out of Spain is not the truth and in fact newspapers like the Guardian are far more reliable – especially when they talk about the reasons behind Catalan nationalism.