For me if you're good enough then you're old enough, it's that simple. If we didn't have under 21s then they'd be in the squad.
comment by Superb (U6486)
posted 14 minutes ago
Agree with OP.
Other top countries like Spain and Italy that win things take their U21's very seriously. We don't.
We just seem to expect everything to fall into place at Senior level and it so rarely ever does.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Frankie
The problem with that is, when an u21 gets a senior call up, if they then get asked to play for the u21s again the player takes it as though they're being punished.
I agree with the op, it will form a team mentality through the age groups for our best talent.
I also think that should the "b" teams idea not come to fruition, then itv/BBC should be allowed to televise games from the new u21's format, the pay channels won't release their grip on the main league, but televising the new U21's format on BBC/itv 3 channels could make it more competitive, helping to develop the players, if the population take notice of the u21s the prestige of the comp will increase. That increases the competitive nature of the games. And should let them learn to handle game pressure younger.
Ultimately we will also need to increase quotas of home grown Players, maybe even applying a quote to the 11 on the pitch. Germany voluntarily have 7? Why can't we have that mentality towards our national team.
I'd even back a cup competition which only British teams eligible players can compete in. Even if the rules get bent for players like arteta who "could" play for us, it would be a step in the right direction.
England’s performances have been okay in the World Cup and it could be argued that two losses are harsh, however, there is a mentality problem for me as continual failure (and that’s what it is) is not solely down to talent in my eyes.
=-=-=-=-=-=
Totally agree with your sentiment. But make no bones, whilst SOME of England's play against Italy was encouraging, overall it's been a complete and utter disaster. And last night against Uruguay was atrocious for the best part. There's so many facets as to why the team played so badly and continue to do so, but the mentality you call into question is one of the key causes.
Also there's a fundamental flaw in that 90% of the current England squad are inferior in a technical sense to most of the players they come up against. Pretty bleak stuff.
comment by Mr Chelsea ✪ (U3579)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by Spurtle2 (U1608)
posted 2 minutes ago
England just won the U-17's European Championship, so the players coming through might not be the problem. It's just how we can manage to develop them correctly from this point on that's the problem.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They all get given nice big fat contracts far too early. Endorsements come, media do special pieces on them and hype them up. So they've got it all at a young age. Money, cars, women and a 5 year contract earning 40k a week giving them security so where's the incentive to work. It all ends up going to their head and we're left with a player who's gone backwards in developement, Just to be clear. any human would do the same, if they're give rewards far too earlyt, they subconsciously switch off from the job in hand (Which is developing their football)
Foreign players get peanuts in their own league. Its only when they come inthe PL, that's when they get an upgrade on their wages. So think of how many medicore English players are getting. Read something the other day that Costa is something like 30k a week? Ridiculous. No doubt he'll treble that over here but it just shows how much money is floating about in our league and how much ends up getting wasted by giving it to players who dont end up fulfilling their potential. Make them work to earn a 50k contract. Make them realise that to earn money, you need to be a good player because right now, you dont need to be that good to earn a shedload of money from the PL and you can see why young players stop developing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That might be part of it but surely young foreign players are getting loads of money too? So that would suggest it's an attitude thing with the way the foreign players and our players handle it their riches.
Ultimately, there are a lot of other things at play such as the coaching in this country and the opportunity for the young players. These U-17 champions, are they going to get the chance to break through into the top teams? It's unlikely, so their development will stall.
erm the u17s won the tournament 2 years ago aswell..
"I really wish we could develop some good attacking wingers. The crossing yesterday was horrendous, we put in 6 or 7 and all of them went straight to the keeper. If Sterling can progress and develop his crossing then he will be an asset. There seems to be no top left sided player though. Maybe Shaw can fill this void - Baines at LB with Shaw at LW maybe ?"
Theres your problem right there. Most of those crosses came from Baines. It wasnt working and yet you want to develope more "crossers". So we can hit hopeful balls into the box all day
The game has moved forward from that style of play and you HAVE to adapt. Look at Spain, no progression in their style of play and they have been found out.
How you gonna put crosses into a defence that contains one of the world's best defenders when it comes to dealing with crosses ie Diego Godin.
comment by The Noble Lord Flash (U8334)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Superb (U6486)
posted 14 minutes ago
Agree with OP.
Other top countries like Spain and Italy that win things take their U21's very seriously. We don't.
We just seem to expect everything to fall into place at Senior level and it so rarely ever does.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Frankie
The problem with that is, when an u21 gets a senior call up, if they then get asked to play for the u21s again the player takes it as though they're being punished.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shouldn't be like that though Flash.
Playing for the Under 21's should be seen as an honour. It is in Spain and Italy etc.
That's why they'll keep winning things and we won't.
A winning mentality and togetherness must be first implemented at Under 21 level first.
Bringing an 18 year old Shaw to the WC shows everything wrong with the England setup.
There is another aspect to our training in this country. Recently the FA has changed how the kids train and have 7 a side on smaller pitches, this is good.
However, there are laws here that limit the amount of time training an under 16 can have where as this does not happen abroad.
I think we are producing more technical players, I have certainly seen a difference at our academy for example, but I don't think this will change the mentality. Only winning will do that.
I'm not advocating an age cap per se (maybe I am) I'm just saying that the U21#s would be a lot stronger if they stayed together.
It's all very well saying if you're good enough you're old enough but they're not good enough and we've been knocked out. Again.
What England needs is to define their league/s with a style of play and run with it.
Germany did it with their speedy transition football. Italy with their good defence. Spain with their technical, passing football style. South America for their flair.
The FA need to say, this is the style of football we want to play and force all clubs at all levels to play this sort of football and then you'll see the rewards. Each player will be learning one system and wouldnt find it hard adapting from club football to the international scene.
Belguim is the exception that exported their young talent early and had other countries with good footballing schools teach their players and were lucky to have all those players born in the same generation.
Thats just my take on things.
Totally agree Robbing.
The fact that Sterling has been good is irrelevant really.
It's about the team, not individual U21's doing well while we we get knocked out early.
I can't see a good argument against taking our best players to U17-U21 tournaments.
If players don't want to then they should be banned from England duty until they see sense. The FA need to get tough on clubs and force them to release players and if Wenger or whoever doesn't like it then tough too.
Stuart Pearce might not be a great manager but he is spot on regarding the importance of youth tournaments.
Success breeds success.
Firstly I don't see how you can deny the national team a talent because of their age. If you're good enough you're old enough and personally remain unconvinced that winning a fairly meaningless tournament would develop the mental fortitude to succeed at full international level.
Plenty of players have excelled at U21 level but not gone on to better things. England's top goalscorer - Jeffers. The best players at a young age wont necessarily become top players.
Just a point of interest, England won the U21 Euro Championship in 1982 and again in 1984. Every few of the players graduated to the full England side and if you look at the names there are good reasons for that. There was definitely a winning mentality with that group of players but the bottom line is they weren't good enough to represent the full side.
And yet 1990 was probably our best world cup in 50 years.
comment by Robbing_Hoody - Here, have some goals. You don't have to work for them. They're a gift. That's what we do now. (U6374)
posted 5 minutes ago
And yet 1990 was probably our best world cup in 50 years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah but none of the U21 team were in the 1990 team - that's the point really. You can create a winning mentality for a junior competition but that doesn't mean those players will make the grade. Of the 1984 team only Steve Hodge and Mark Hateley went on to have an England career of any note.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1196089/Whatever-happened-Englands-heroes-1984.html
But if these players are being called up by the seniors at 17/18/19 then they will make the grade.
I guess I'm just echoing what Pearce said and if you always do what you've always done you'll always get what you've always got.
I do not see a downside to keeping these players back. I'm not saying it's guaranteed to work but I do not see a negative to it.
I think everyone agrees there is a mentality problem with England don't they? They why not try and change it?
comment by Robbing_Hoody - Here, have some goals. You don't have to work for them. They're a gift. That's what we do now. (U6374)
posted 7 minutes ago
But if these players are being called up by the seniors at 17/18/19 then they will make the grade.
I guess I'm just echoing what Pearce said and if you always do what you've always done you'll always get what you've always got.
I do not see a downside to keeping these players back. I'm not saying it's guaranteed to work but I do not see a negative to it.
I think everyone agrees there is a mentality problem with England don't they? They why not try and change it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I totally agree with the sentiment that if you always do the same thing etc, I'm just not sure holding players back is the way to go.
If you want a blueprint then the Spanish (this world cup aside!) is not a bad one to look at. They were considered the perennial under-achievers but invested in technical training of youth and a defined style of play throughout their teams. There was a cohesive strategy as to how they were going to make the Spanish national team a success.
I have no idea if England have such a strategy but if they do it's a very well disguised one. That, to me, is how you address the issue rather than potentially holding the talent back.
As said the laws for training are different here and I think it's a maximum of 1.5 hours per day under 16. Something like that, where as abroad there are no such restrictions and the players are educated at the clubs I think.
The weather does not help either but the FA are making moves in terms of making smaller pitches with less players etc.
In the article I posted about Belguim it notes the following;
"First, inspired by research trips to the best training centres in France, the Netherlands and Germany, every youth team in the country was told to play a fluid and flexible 4-3-3 formation favoured by the national team. Sablon made a brochure and went to clubs, schools and all youth coaches and told them how to do it.
Sablon even went as far as ensuring under-seven and under-eight teams did not have league tables"
We need a sablon in this country
Foreign players get peanuts in their own league.
=====================
COBBLERS
comment by Robbing_Hoody - Here, have some goals. You don't have to work for them. They're a gift. That's what we do now. (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
We need a sablon in this country
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wouldn't argue with that for a second, that degree of co-ordination is absolutely appropriate in my mind.
As for the laws, I guess the FA would have to make a case for football being an exception. Not sure if they've tried or not.
It's a long term investment but I'd say a much better way to go than trying to keep an U21 team together for a couple more years.
comment by Leiva la vida Lucas {Proud owner of the 5 000 000th comment} (U2720)
posted 3 hours, 57 minutes ago
What England needs is to define their league/s with a style of play and run with it.
Germany did it with their speedy transition football. Italy with their good defence. Spain with their technical, passing football style. South America for their flair.
The FA need to say, this is the style of football we want to play and force all clubs at all levels to play this sort of football and then you'll see the rewards. Each player will be learning one system and wouldnt find it hard adapting from club football to the international scene.
Belguim is the exception that exported their young talent early and had other countries with good footballing schools teach their players and were lucky to have all those players born in the same generation.
Thats just my take on things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good post. We do have a style...it's called hoofball
I agree with Mr. Chelsea to a large degree.
Sign in if you want to comment
Englands future: Thoughts please
Page 2 of 2
posted on 20/6/14
For me if you're good enough then you're old enough, it's that simple. If we didn't have under 21s then they'd be in the squad.
posted on 20/6/14
comment by Superb (U6486)
posted 14 minutes ago
Agree with OP.
Other top countries like Spain and Italy that win things take their U21's very seriously. We don't.
We just seem to expect everything to fall into place at Senior level and it so rarely ever does.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Frankie
The problem with that is, when an u21 gets a senior call up, if they then get asked to play for the u21s again the player takes it as though they're being punished.
posted on 20/6/14
I agree with the op, it will form a team mentality through the age groups for our best talent.
I also think that should the "b" teams idea not come to fruition, then itv/BBC should be allowed to televise games from the new u21's format, the pay channels won't release their grip on the main league, but televising the new U21's format on BBC/itv 3 channels could make it more competitive, helping to develop the players, if the population take notice of the u21s the prestige of the comp will increase. That increases the competitive nature of the games. And should let them learn to handle game pressure younger.
Ultimately we will also need to increase quotas of home grown Players, maybe even applying a quote to the 11 on the pitch. Germany voluntarily have 7? Why can't we have that mentality towards our national team.
I'd even back a cup competition which only British teams eligible players can compete in. Even if the rules get bent for players like arteta who "could" play for us, it would be a step in the right direction.
posted on 20/6/14
England’s performances have been okay in the World Cup and it could be argued that two losses are harsh, however, there is a mentality problem for me as continual failure (and that’s what it is) is not solely down to talent in my eyes.
=-=-=-=-=-=
Totally agree with your sentiment. But make no bones, whilst SOME of England's play against Italy was encouraging, overall it's been a complete and utter disaster. And last night against Uruguay was atrocious for the best part. There's so many facets as to why the team played so badly and continue to do so, but the mentality you call into question is one of the key causes.
Also there's a fundamental flaw in that 90% of the current England squad are inferior in a technical sense to most of the players they come up against. Pretty bleak stuff.
posted on 20/6/14
comment by Mr Chelsea ✪ (U3579)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by Spurtle2 (U1608)
posted 2 minutes ago
England just won the U-17's European Championship, so the players coming through might not be the problem. It's just how we can manage to develop them correctly from this point on that's the problem.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They all get given nice big fat contracts far too early. Endorsements come, media do special pieces on them and hype them up. So they've got it all at a young age. Money, cars, women and a 5 year contract earning 40k a week giving them security so where's the incentive to work. It all ends up going to their head and we're left with a player who's gone backwards in developement, Just to be clear. any human would do the same, if they're give rewards far too earlyt, they subconsciously switch off from the job in hand (Which is developing their football)
Foreign players get peanuts in their own league. Its only when they come inthe PL, that's when they get an upgrade on their wages. So think of how many medicore English players are getting. Read something the other day that Costa is something like 30k a week? Ridiculous. No doubt he'll treble that over here but it just shows how much money is floating about in our league and how much ends up getting wasted by giving it to players who dont end up fulfilling their potential. Make them work to earn a 50k contract. Make them realise that to earn money, you need to be a good player because right now, you dont need to be that good to earn a shedload of money from the PL and you can see why young players stop developing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That might be part of it but surely young foreign players are getting loads of money too? So that would suggest it's an attitude thing with the way the foreign players and our players handle it their riches.
Ultimately, there are a lot of other things at play such as the coaching in this country and the opportunity for the young players. These U-17 champions, are they going to get the chance to break through into the top teams? It's unlikely, so their development will stall.
posted on 20/6/14
erm the u17s won the tournament 2 years ago aswell..
posted on 20/6/14
"I really wish we could develop some good attacking wingers. The crossing yesterday was horrendous, we put in 6 or 7 and all of them went straight to the keeper. If Sterling can progress and develop his crossing then he will be an asset. There seems to be no top left sided player though. Maybe Shaw can fill this void - Baines at LB with Shaw at LW maybe ?"
Theres your problem right there. Most of those crosses came from Baines. It wasnt working and yet you want to develope more "crossers". So we can hit hopeful balls into the box all day
The game has moved forward from that style of play and you HAVE to adapt. Look at Spain, no progression in their style of play and they have been found out.
How you gonna put crosses into a defence that contains one of the world's best defenders when it comes to dealing with crosses ie Diego Godin.
posted on 20/6/14
comment by The Noble Lord Flash (U8334)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Superb (U6486)
posted 14 minutes ago
Agree with OP.
Other top countries like Spain and Italy that win things take their U21's very seriously. We don't.
We just seem to expect everything to fall into place at Senior level and it so rarely ever does.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Frankie
The problem with that is, when an u21 gets a senior call up, if they then get asked to play for the u21s again the player takes it as though they're being punished.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shouldn't be like that though Flash.
Playing for the Under 21's should be seen as an honour. It is in Spain and Italy etc.
That's why they'll keep winning things and we won't.
A winning mentality and togetherness must be first implemented at Under 21 level first.
Bringing an 18 year old Shaw to the WC shows everything wrong with the England setup.
posted on 20/6/14
There is another aspect to our training in this country. Recently the FA has changed how the kids train and have 7 a side on smaller pitches, this is good.
However, there are laws here that limit the amount of time training an under 16 can have where as this does not happen abroad.
I think we are producing more technical players, I have certainly seen a difference at our academy for example, but I don't think this will change the mentality. Only winning will do that.
I'm not advocating an age cap per se (maybe I am) I'm just saying that the U21#s would be a lot stronger if they stayed together.
It's all very well saying if you're good enough you're old enough but they're not good enough and we've been knocked out. Again.
posted on 20/6/14
What England needs is to define their league/s with a style of play and run with it.
Germany did it with their speedy transition football. Italy with their good defence. Spain with their technical, passing football style. South America for their flair.
The FA need to say, this is the style of football we want to play and force all clubs at all levels to play this sort of football and then you'll see the rewards. Each player will be learning one system and wouldnt find it hard adapting from club football to the international scene.
Belguim is the exception that exported their young talent early and had other countries with good footballing schools teach their players and were lucky to have all those players born in the same generation.
Thats just my take on things.
posted on 20/6/14
Totally agree Robbing.
The fact that Sterling has been good is irrelevant really.
It's about the team, not individual U21's doing well while we we get knocked out early.
I can't see a good argument against taking our best players to U17-U21 tournaments.
If players don't want to then they should be banned from England duty until they see sense. The FA need to get tough on clubs and force them to release players and if Wenger or whoever doesn't like it then tough too.
Stuart Pearce might not be a great manager but he is spot on regarding the importance of youth tournaments.
Success breeds success.
posted on 20/6/14
Firstly I don't see how you can deny the national team a talent because of their age. If you're good enough you're old enough and personally remain unconvinced that winning a fairly meaningless tournament would develop the mental fortitude to succeed at full international level.
Plenty of players have excelled at U21 level but not gone on to better things. England's top goalscorer - Jeffers. The best players at a young age wont necessarily become top players.
Just a point of interest, England won the U21 Euro Championship in 1982 and again in 1984. Every few of the players graduated to the full England side and if you look at the names there are good reasons for that. There was definitely a winning mentality with that group of players but the bottom line is they weren't good enough to represent the full side.
posted on 20/6/14
And yet 1990 was probably our best world cup in 50 years.
posted on 20/6/14
comment by Robbing_Hoody - Here, have some goals. You don't have to work for them. They're a gift. That's what we do now. (U6374)
posted 5 minutes ago
And yet 1990 was probably our best world cup in 50 years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah but none of the U21 team were in the 1990 team - that's the point really. You can create a winning mentality for a junior competition but that doesn't mean those players will make the grade. Of the 1984 team only Steve Hodge and Mark Hateley went on to have an England career of any note.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1196089/Whatever-happened-Englands-heroes-1984.html
posted on 20/6/14
But if these players are being called up by the seniors at 17/18/19 then they will make the grade.
I guess I'm just echoing what Pearce said and if you always do what you've always done you'll always get what you've always got.
I do not see a downside to keeping these players back. I'm not saying it's guaranteed to work but I do not see a negative to it.
I think everyone agrees there is a mentality problem with England don't they? They why not try and change it?
posted on 20/6/14
comment by Robbing_Hoody - Here, have some goals. You don't have to work for them. They're a gift. That's what we do now. (U6374)
posted 7 minutes ago
But if these players are being called up by the seniors at 17/18/19 then they will make the grade.
I guess I'm just echoing what Pearce said and if you always do what you've always done you'll always get what you've always got.
I do not see a downside to keeping these players back. I'm not saying it's guaranteed to work but I do not see a negative to it.
I think everyone agrees there is a mentality problem with England don't they? They why not try and change it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I totally agree with the sentiment that if you always do the same thing etc, I'm just not sure holding players back is the way to go.
If you want a blueprint then the Spanish (this world cup aside!) is not a bad one to look at. They were considered the perennial under-achievers but invested in technical training of youth and a defined style of play throughout their teams. There was a cohesive strategy as to how they were going to make the Spanish national team a success.
I have no idea if England have such a strategy but if they do it's a very well disguised one. That, to me, is how you address the issue rather than potentially holding the talent back.
posted on 20/6/14
As said the laws for training are different here and I think it's a maximum of 1.5 hours per day under 16. Something like that, where as abroad there are no such restrictions and the players are educated at the clubs I think.
The weather does not help either but the FA are making moves in terms of making smaller pitches with less players etc.
In the article I posted about Belguim it notes the following;
"First, inspired by research trips to the best training centres in France, the Netherlands and Germany, every youth team in the country was told to play a fluid and flexible 4-3-3 formation favoured by the national team. Sablon made a brochure and went to clubs, schools and all youth coaches and told them how to do it.
Sablon even went as far as ensuring under-seven and under-eight teams did not have league tables"
We need a sablon in this country
posted on 20/6/14
Foreign players get peanuts in their own league.
=====================
COBBLERS
posted on 20/6/14
comment by Robbing_Hoody - Here, have some goals. You don't have to work for them. They're a gift. That's what we do now. (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
We need a sablon in this country
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wouldn't argue with that for a second, that degree of co-ordination is absolutely appropriate in my mind.
As for the laws, I guess the FA would have to make a case for football being an exception. Not sure if they've tried or not.
It's a long term investment but I'd say a much better way to go than trying to keep an U21 team together for a couple more years.
posted on 20/6/14
comment by Leiva la vida Lucas {Proud owner of the 5 000 000th comment} (U2720)
posted 3 hours, 57 minutes ago
What England needs is to define their league/s with a style of play and run with it.
Germany did it with their speedy transition football. Italy with their good defence. Spain with their technical, passing football style. South America for their flair.
The FA need to say, this is the style of football we want to play and force all clubs at all levels to play this sort of football and then you'll see the rewards. Each player will be learning one system and wouldnt find it hard adapting from club football to the international scene.
Belguim is the exception that exported their young talent early and had other countries with good footballing schools teach their players and were lucky to have all those players born in the same generation.
Thats just my take on things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good post. We do have a style...it's called hoofball
posted on 20/6/14
I agree with Mr. Chelsea to a large degree.
Page 2 of 2