Stats don't lie but used as above they have a knack of hiding the fill story. Those terrible figures do not have a "number of games missed by squad players" column. But it's also true to say that the league doesn't either.
Regarding style of football, what some don't understand is that for the club's overall strategy, that is exactly what is important (yes, more important than staying up).
Rovers cannot compete financially with most of the clubs in this division. While "finish as high as you can" is important, to enable us to compete we need something else. That something is football style. We are setting ourselves up as a development club for young players. Yes staying in this league is important to that aim, but to help develop the footballers that the big-boys want, you have to play football a bit!
It's potentially a very lucrative market. First of all for players. Richie Wellens is a classic example of what the playing style can do for them. He didn't make it at Man U, was great but without really attracting attention to himself at Blackpool and then Oldham. He signs for Donny and after 2 years is making a 1.2M move to Leicester. Nice for him as he gets a cut of that. There were no transfer fees like for him until he moved from Donny. And he did that at age 29.
Big teams need to find out what they can expect from their young players. I'll use JET as my example. Is JET going to become a world-class player of the standard Arsenal are going to need if they want to compete in Europe? No, probably not. So if you're a manager you need to be selling him on at the right time for the right money. You can decide that yourself of course, but isn't a second opinion good sometimes? Especially when it's given from seeing the lad playing at a high level of competitive football. JET got that at Blackpool and Donny, both of whom were playing attractive football at the time. I didn't see him at the Blades!
Result: Jay is judged not to be what Arsenal are after. The opinions of Blackpool, Donny and Cardiff would have assisted Arsenal in deciding that after 10 years work, it was time to cash in on JET. His record at Donny would also have helped push his price up.
So don't be fooled. The football style is everything.
Great post Fuzzy
We played passing football less than a fortnight ago in the cup and won, yes it was to a lower league side but we have been beaten by lower league sides before (Notts County and Accrington who were both a league lower than Tranmere at the time)
I think this lack of a league win is a monkey on the back of the team at the moment. Not sure how they'll get rid of it but changing style isn't the answer, we tried that back end of last season
Yes good football but;
we float like a butterfly and sting like a butterfly!
and unless something drastic happens we will float into league 1.
Maybe and that would be bad for the strategy I just explained. But even in league 1 our footballing reputation (as long as it can be back up) will attract players to get us back up.
Abandon the football style and grind out victories and we do not guarantee survival, but do put the identity at risk. Then we are not such an attractive prospect for players.
Survival in this league will be a struggle. Injuries may put it to a large extent out of our hands. The football we play is on the other hand our choice. We decide that and it is never anyone else's choice than ours. So why would we give that up without a guarantee of staying up?
so with those stats we can continue to play pretty football get relegated and everything will be rosy. sod keeps his job because we play pretty football,finances fall players leave and we have to start building all over again.
im sorry lads n lasses but sod has run his course as the article says stats dont lie any other club would have replaced sod a long time ago and yes i will name a replacement "dave jones" would be my first choice with "mark robbins" second .
There comes a time when someone has "taken it as far as they can".
I agree with nortonbri
We've not been good in 2011.!
And I'm not going to say we have been good in 2011. But I do not throw that bad performance at the manager's feet. I say we've had extraordinarily bad luck with injuries. If we get players back and keep them back, I'm confident we'll survive this season.
As I've pointed out, I also understand the virtues of what is described in the throw-away label "pretty football".
What I don't understand is why people want to gamble by turning their back on it and the manager. The thing is, all the plan B's and alternative managers some want to try, offer no more guarantees of success than sticking with what we have. In my opinion, they will simply make the relegation everyone is so concerned about all the more probable.
The thing is, all the plan B's and alternative managers some want to try, offer no more guarantees of success than sticking with what we have. In my opinion, they will simply make the relegation everyone is so concerned about all the more probable.
fuzzy we chose an alternative manager after dave penney with no guarantee of success didnt we, was dp's record has bad has sod's .
in life you have to gamble now and again,jr has done it with a lot of success its time to do it again THE STATS DONT LIE
People talk of poor attendances,
but its a fact that losing teams lose support.
We have been dull more times than we have been exciting.
Teams that are beating us are very happy to see Rovers pass the ball from side to side and back to the keeper, particularly when they know that sooner or later they will capitalise on a mistake and score again knowing that we will never get in to their penalty area.
The Forest game 10 minutes to go 1-0 down and we don't try anything different - Barcelona can do that because they are good enough to do so whereas we unfortunately are not.
If you want to compare DPs record with SODs, you have to compare like with like.
DP's record in league 1
W 37% D 32% L 32%
SOD's record in league 1
W 53% D 29 L 33%
I think that's pretty clear. STATS DON'T LIE
DP went because after a 10 and an 8th placed finish, and being in 20th place after 12 games played, it was clear that the man could not take us any further. The objective was championship footbal and we weren't there yet, so DP was let go.
Now we have SOD and you are all going to say "well its obvious he isn't going to get us any further either".
Correct! But I don't think our objective is to play premier league football. Our objective is to exist at as higher level as possible with the resources we have. We do this by captilizing on the manager's ability for developing players. This attracts players we would otherwise not get (Billy Sharp, Tommy Spurr, George Friend, Chris Brown, Ryan Mason, Milan Lalkovic, Reece Brown), all of whom have development potential. This Quality of player, if all goes well will see us right.
The difficulty is that other clubs in this league can attract similar and better quality players with just money. Sadly we don't have that option.
dave penney
Doncaster Rovers England 22 April 2000 31 May 2000 6 4 1 1 66.7
Doncaster Rovers England 27 December 2001 30 August 2006 PL241 W114 D62 L65 47.3%win
sod
Doncaster Rovers 8 September 2006 Present PL259 W96 D71 L92 37.07%win
read into to this what you wish
Fuzzy, I don't think your defence of SoD is as deserved as you seem to think. You say Penney's success was achieved as a rich boy in that class, but how much did Penney spend over all and how much did SoD. Wellens was widely recognised as the best midfielder in Lge 1, nearly out of contract and Rovers offered him the most, also he spent more on Stock than I think Penney did in 5 years.
As for us being a prefered option for loan players, every club in this division has them, I would say most have more than us. Blackpool got promoted with loan players, when they couldn't put out a half decent team without them.
nortonbri - are you really comparing Conference wins, where we were the rich-boys with championship wins where we are the paupers.
Hence why I said compare like with like (otherwise Stats do lie). Oh and as you may have gathered, I do a lot of work with stats and a lot of it is ensuring the stats you are comparing are comparable. Otherwise, you lead whoever you are advising up the wrong road.
a manager is judged by wins regardless of the league there in fuzzy,at the end of the day sod has been a very lucky boy to keep his job regardless of the quality of football, results count and he isn't getting them thats a stat that cant lie
Fuzzy, I think you should check your figures for SOD's League One record.
W 43% D. 28%. L. 29%
The 53% was a mistype on the phone and the other two slight corrections are due to a confusing link. But anyway, correct now. Still better the Penney's even though they include a part season with no pre-season.
Sorry for typing incorrectly the first time.
ever herd of the saying there's lies damn lies & statistics, only 3 wins this year & a manager who clearly has no idea how to stop the rot should be the only thing we should be looking at imho.
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posted on 21/8/11
Stats don't lie but used as above they have a knack of hiding the fill story. Those terrible figures do not have a "number of games missed by squad players" column. But it's also true to say that the league doesn't either.
Regarding style of football, what some don't understand is that for the club's overall strategy, that is exactly what is important (yes, more important than staying up).
Rovers cannot compete financially with most of the clubs in this division. While "finish as high as you can" is important, to enable us to compete we need something else. That something is football style. We are setting ourselves up as a development club for young players. Yes staying in this league is important to that aim, but to help develop the footballers that the big-boys want, you have to play football a bit!
It's potentially a very lucrative market. First of all for players. Richie Wellens is a classic example of what the playing style can do for them. He didn't make it at Man U, was great but without really attracting attention to himself at Blackpool and then Oldham. He signs for Donny and after 2 years is making a 1.2M move to Leicester. Nice for him as he gets a cut of that. There were no transfer fees like for him until he moved from Donny. And he did that at age 29.
Big teams need to find out what they can expect from their young players. I'll use JET as my example. Is JET going to become a world-class player of the standard Arsenal are going to need if they want to compete in Europe? No, probably not. So if you're a manager you need to be selling him on at the right time for the right money. You can decide that yourself of course, but isn't a second opinion good sometimes? Especially when it's given from seeing the lad playing at a high level of competitive football. JET got that at Blackpool and Donny, both of whom were playing attractive football at the time. I didn't see him at the Blades!
Result: Jay is judged not to be what Arsenal are after. The opinions of Blackpool, Donny and Cardiff would have assisted Arsenal in deciding that after 10 years work, it was time to cash in on JET. His record at Donny would also have helped push his price up.
So don't be fooled. The football style is everything.
posted on 21/8/11
Great post Fuzzy
We played passing football less than a fortnight ago in the cup and won, yes it was to a lower league side but we have been beaten by lower league sides before (Notts County and Accrington who were both a league lower than Tranmere at the time)
I think this lack of a league win is a monkey on the back of the team at the moment. Not sure how they'll get rid of it but changing style isn't the answer, we tried that back end of last season
posted on 21/8/11
Yes good football but;
we float like a butterfly and sting like a butterfly!
and unless something drastic happens we will float into league 1.
posted on 21/8/11
Maybe and that would be bad for the strategy I just explained. But even in league 1 our footballing reputation (as long as it can be back up) will attract players to get us back up.
Abandon the football style and grind out victories and we do not guarantee survival, but do put the identity at risk. Then we are not such an attractive prospect for players.
Survival in this league will be a struggle. Injuries may put it to a large extent out of our hands. The football we play is on the other hand our choice. We decide that and it is never anyone else's choice than ours. So why would we give that up without a guarantee of staying up?
posted on 21/8/11
so with those stats we can continue to play pretty football get relegated and everything will be rosy. sod keeps his job because we play pretty football,finances fall players leave and we have to start building all over again.
im sorry lads n lasses but sod has run his course as the article says stats dont lie any other club would have replaced sod a long time ago and yes i will name a replacement "dave jones" would be my first choice with "mark robbins" second .
posted on 21/8/11
There comes a time when someone has "taken it as far as they can".
I agree with nortonbri
We've not been good in 2011.!
posted on 21/8/11
And I'm not going to say we have been good in 2011. But I do not throw that bad performance at the manager's feet. I say we've had extraordinarily bad luck with injuries. If we get players back and keep them back, I'm confident we'll survive this season.
As I've pointed out, I also understand the virtues of what is described in the throw-away label "pretty football".
What I don't understand is why people want to gamble by turning their back on it and the manager. The thing is, all the plan B's and alternative managers some want to try, offer no more guarantees of success than sticking with what we have. In my opinion, they will simply make the relegation everyone is so concerned about all the more probable.
posted on 21/8/11
The thing is, all the plan B's and alternative managers some want to try, offer no more guarantees of success than sticking with what we have. In my opinion, they will simply make the relegation everyone is so concerned about all the more probable.
fuzzy we chose an alternative manager after dave penney with no guarantee of success didnt we, was dp's record has bad has sod's .
in life you have to gamble now and again,jr has done it with a lot of success its time to do it again THE STATS DONT LIE
posted on 21/8/11
People talk of poor attendances,
but its a fact that losing teams lose support.
We have been dull more times than we have been exciting.
posted on 21/8/11
Teams that are beating us are very happy to see Rovers pass the ball from side to side and back to the keeper, particularly when they know that sooner or later they will capitalise on a mistake and score again knowing that we will never get in to their penalty area.
The Forest game 10 minutes to go 1-0 down and we don't try anything different - Barcelona can do that because they are good enough to do so whereas we unfortunately are not.
posted on 21/8/11
If you want to compare DPs record with SODs, you have to compare like with like.
DP's record in league 1
W 37% D 32% L 32%
SOD's record in league 1
W 53% D 29 L 33%
I think that's pretty clear. STATS DON'T LIE
DP went because after a 10 and an 8th placed finish, and being in 20th place after 12 games played, it was clear that the man could not take us any further. The objective was championship footbal and we weren't there yet, so DP was let go.
Now we have SOD and you are all going to say "well its obvious he isn't going to get us any further either".
Correct! But I don't think our objective is to play premier league football. Our objective is to exist at as higher level as possible with the resources we have. We do this by captilizing on the manager's ability for developing players. This attracts players we would otherwise not get (Billy Sharp, Tommy Spurr, George Friend, Chris Brown, Ryan Mason, Milan Lalkovic, Reece Brown), all of whom have development potential. This Quality of player, if all goes well will see us right.
The difficulty is that other clubs in this league can attract similar and better quality players with just money. Sadly we don't have that option.
posted on 21/8/11
dave penney
Doncaster Rovers England 22 April 2000 31 May 2000 6 4 1 1 66.7
Doncaster Rovers England 27 December 2001 30 August 2006 PL241 W114 D62 L65 47.3%win
sod
Doncaster Rovers 8 September 2006 Present PL259 W96 D71 L92 37.07%win
read into to this what you wish
posted on 21/8/11
Fuzzy, I don't think your defence of SoD is as deserved as you seem to think. You say Penney's success was achieved as a rich boy in that class, but how much did Penney spend over all and how much did SoD. Wellens was widely recognised as the best midfielder in Lge 1, nearly out of contract and Rovers offered him the most, also he spent more on Stock than I think Penney did in 5 years.
As for us being a prefered option for loan players, every club in this division has them, I would say most have more than us. Blackpool got promoted with loan players, when they couldn't put out a half decent team without them.
posted on 21/8/11
nortonbri - are you really comparing Conference wins, where we were the rich-boys with championship wins where we are the paupers.
Hence why I said compare like with like (otherwise Stats do lie). Oh and as you may have gathered, I do a lot of work with stats and a lot of it is ensuring the stats you are comparing are comparable. Otherwise, you lead whoever you are advising up the wrong road.
posted on 21/8/11
a manager is judged by wins regardless of the league there in fuzzy,at the end of the day sod has been a very lucky boy to keep his job regardless of the quality of football, results count and he isn't getting them thats a stat that cant lie
posted on 21/8/11
Fuzzy, I think you should check your figures for SOD's League One record.
posted on 21/8/11
W 43% D. 28%. L. 29%
The 53% was a mistype on the phone and the other two slight corrections are due to a confusing link. But anyway, correct now. Still better the Penney's even though they include a part season with no pre-season.
Sorry for typing incorrectly the first time.
posted on 23/8/11
ever herd of the saying there's lies damn lies & statistics, only 3 wins this year & a manager who clearly has no idea how to stop the rot should be the only thing we should be looking at imho.
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