It's certainly an interesting idea but I fear it suffers from the same problems we saw on Tuesday night - lack of width and directness going forward, which makes us predictable, and forces the full-backs forward to compensate, leaving way too much space down the channels.
I think the 433 or 4231 systems can work fine if we stop playing players out of position. Sanchez and Chamberlain down either flank would give us great counter-attacking options and a means of stretching teams. On top of this, their greater athleticism could allow us to press more effectively.
But more than this, it would also give a greater range of passing options for the likes of Ozil, Ramsey, Cazorla etc, which, in turn, could improve their level of performance also.
Looks a decent side until you get to Welbeck
Stu, don't you think the vulnerability issue from advancing full-backs would be covered by the two/three in midfield?
To a degree, but there's still the issue of a ball being played straight down the channels either side of the CBs, bypassing the midfield like we saw on Tuesday.
I guess another concern would be that Ramsey and Wilshere's form might suffer from playing such a defensive position - both of them like to drive forward from deep, and this might be difficult to do if they're expected to cover the full-backs.
Like I say, I think it's a good idea and may work, but I'd personally prefer to see us try a system with more width first.
Stu, agreed that the Wilshere/Ramsey issue is a potential problem. Ideally, I would envisage a situation where Ramsey could advance if Wilshere stays and vice versa (some hope!).
Really you need a Pirlo in the middle and two DMs either side..... oh wait, we haven't got that have we
Still, it might bring the best out of the front three, while still leaving us fairly compact at the back.
The flaw in that system with the personnel you list is with the DM. I’m not jumping on the Wilshere bashing wagon but you mention him as the deepest player, while I’m not saying he couldn’t possibly do the ‘Pirlo’ deep playmaker / link what I am saying is that isn’t the type of player for that system, certainly not in the PL. If you play a narrow system and need your full-backs more like wing-backs you really need a specialists DM who is disciplined and knows the role, one who’ll effectively become a third centre back at times similar to a 3-5-2. It is very hard to get right as if the player doesn’t know the role they can confuse the entire system.
comment by Armchair Judgement (U6850)
posted 2 minutes ago
Stu, agreed that the Wilshere/Ramsey issue is a potential problem. Ideally, I would envisage a situation where Ramsey could advance if Wilshere stays and vice versa (some hope!).
Really you need a Pirlo in the middle and two DMs either side..... oh wait, we haven't got that have we
Still, it might bring the best out of the front three, while still leaving us fairly compact at the back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, Southampton played with a similar sort of system last season, and they pretty much had a midfield comprised of combative/defence-minded players to remedy the problem.
I think it could work, but I'd still like to see Ozil given more a central role, with pace either side of him (Chamberlain-Welbeck-Sanchez).
I'm still always a little worried about leaving Mertesacker to cover the channel by himself. I think he's a great player, but long-term, I'd like to see us bring in someone faster so that we can afford to push the full-backs forward more like you suggest.
Bluedroog, as I understood it, the central midfielder of the three has licence to roam forward bringing the ball from deep, BUT only if the two midfielders either side of him are defensively disciplined.
That's a big "but" in our case, and you need a central player who is comfortable in that role - admittedly Pirlo's are quite rare.
My suggestion is really based on the puzzle of utilising players like Ozil and Sanchez further forward in a fluid system. It won't happen but it would be interesting to try.
So are you calling that a 4-5-1 or 4-3-2-1?
I personally think the 4-1-4-1 we're playing now is not proving successful so we need to drop Ramsey back to a deeper role.
I actually don’t mind the system (to be honest systems are often supple varieties of one another in practice) It’s almost a cross between the 4-3-3 Jose played when he first came to Chelsea and City / Brasil a few years ago 4-2-2-2, more a narrow 4-3-3, 4-3-2-1 - Giving myself a headache! I like a back 4 and a loan striker.
Sanchez and Ozil work for me (Walcott back will be a big boost too to give you a third option or to move Sanchez central. I think trying to fit Ozil, Ramsey and Wilshere in to the same team presents problems, particularly as Flamini isn't a Vieira or a Makelele. Ramsey looks a bit off this season while Wilshere is finally finding some form, I'd still look to bring a proper DM in at some point then you could play both, who out of Ramsey and Wilshere would you like to see do more running and who more emphasis on attack?
You could of course restrict the full-backs and use this system and then give them more freedom when a DM recruited, same formation but slightly different player roles to fit the personnel.
I am gooner now
I'm a little shaky on the correct theory of the system to be honest, but like most systems it can be more fluid in practise.
For example, with the central midfielder advancing in possession, it becomes more of a 4-2-3-1. In defence, the central midfielder helps out the other two of the "three". That's a lot of responsibility for the central midfielder!
One thing I do know - Arteta/Flamini are not equipped to play the 1 in our present 4-1-4-1!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bluedroog
who out of Ramsey and Wilshere would you like to see do more running and who more emphasis on attack?
------------------------------------------------------
That's the tricky one. Ramsey is better defensively, but can also make great runs from deep, as last year. Wilshere possibly has better control/passing ability.
comment by Armchair Judgement (U6850)
posted 2 hours, 5 minutes ago
Bluedroog
who out of Ramsey and Wilshere would you like to see do more running and who more emphasis on attack?
------------------------------------------------------
That's the tricky one. Ramsey is better defensively, but can also make great runs from deep, as last year. Wilshere possibly has better control/passing ability.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ramsey plays his best football from deep. Wilshere is more of an attacking player.
Why would anyone want to play them both out of position?
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posted on 19/9/14
It's certainly an interesting idea but I fear it suffers from the same problems we saw on Tuesday night - lack of width and directness going forward, which makes us predictable, and forces the full-backs forward to compensate, leaving way too much space down the channels.
I think the 433 or 4231 systems can work fine if we stop playing players out of position. Sanchez and Chamberlain down either flank would give us great counter-attacking options and a means of stretching teams. On top of this, their greater athleticism could allow us to press more effectively.
But more than this, it would also give a greater range of passing options for the likes of Ozil, Ramsey, Cazorla etc, which, in turn, could improve their level of performance also.
posted on 19/9/14
Looks a decent side until you get to Welbeck
posted on 19/9/14
Stu, don't you think the vulnerability issue from advancing full-backs would be covered by the two/three in midfield?
posted on 19/9/14
To a degree, but there's still the issue of a ball being played straight down the channels either side of the CBs, bypassing the midfield like we saw on Tuesday.
I guess another concern would be that Ramsey and Wilshere's form might suffer from playing such a defensive position - both of them like to drive forward from deep, and this might be difficult to do if they're expected to cover the full-backs.
Like I say, I think it's a good idea and may work, but I'd personally prefer to see us try a system with more width first.
posted on 19/9/14
Stu, agreed that the Wilshere/Ramsey issue is a potential problem. Ideally, I would envisage a situation where Ramsey could advance if Wilshere stays and vice versa (some hope!).
Really you need a Pirlo in the middle and two DMs either side..... oh wait, we haven't got that have we
Still, it might bring the best out of the front three, while still leaving us fairly compact at the back.
posted on 19/9/14
The flaw in that system with the personnel you list is with the DM. I’m not jumping on the Wilshere bashing wagon but you mention him as the deepest player, while I’m not saying he couldn’t possibly do the ‘Pirlo’ deep playmaker / link what I am saying is that isn’t the type of player for that system, certainly not in the PL. If you play a narrow system and need your full-backs more like wing-backs you really need a specialists DM who is disciplined and knows the role, one who’ll effectively become a third centre back at times similar to a 3-5-2. It is very hard to get right as if the player doesn’t know the role they can confuse the entire system.
posted on 19/9/14
comment by Armchair Judgement (U6850)
posted 2 minutes ago
Stu, agreed that the Wilshere/Ramsey issue is a potential problem. Ideally, I would envisage a situation where Ramsey could advance if Wilshere stays and vice versa (some hope!).
Really you need a Pirlo in the middle and two DMs either side..... oh wait, we haven't got that have we
Still, it might bring the best out of the front three, while still leaving us fairly compact at the back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, Southampton played with a similar sort of system last season, and they pretty much had a midfield comprised of combative/defence-minded players to remedy the problem.
I think it could work, but I'd still like to see Ozil given more a central role, with pace either side of him (Chamberlain-Welbeck-Sanchez).
I'm still always a little worried about leaving Mertesacker to cover the channel by himself. I think he's a great player, but long-term, I'd like to see us bring in someone faster so that we can afford to push the full-backs forward more like you suggest.
posted on 19/9/14
Bluedroog, as I understood it, the central midfielder of the three has licence to roam forward bringing the ball from deep, BUT only if the two midfielders either side of him are defensively disciplined.
That's a big "but" in our case, and you need a central player who is comfortable in that role - admittedly Pirlo's are quite rare.
My suggestion is really based on the puzzle of utilising players like Ozil and Sanchez further forward in a fluid system. It won't happen but it would be interesting to try.
posted on 19/9/14
So are you calling that a 4-5-1 or 4-3-2-1?
I personally think the 4-1-4-1 we're playing now is not proving successful so we need to drop Ramsey back to a deeper role.
posted on 19/9/14
I actually don’t mind the system (to be honest systems are often supple varieties of one another in practice) It’s almost a cross between the 4-3-3 Jose played when he first came to Chelsea and City / Brasil a few years ago 4-2-2-2, more a narrow 4-3-3, 4-3-2-1 - Giving myself a headache! I like a back 4 and a loan striker.
Sanchez and Ozil work for me (Walcott back will be a big boost too to give you a third option or to move Sanchez central. I think trying to fit Ozil, Ramsey and Wilshere in to the same team presents problems, particularly as Flamini isn't a Vieira or a Makelele. Ramsey looks a bit off this season while Wilshere is finally finding some form, I'd still look to bring a proper DM in at some point then you could play both, who out of Ramsey and Wilshere would you like to see do more running and who more emphasis on attack?
You could of course restrict the full-backs and use this system and then give them more freedom when a DM recruited, same formation but slightly different player roles to fit the personnel.
posted on 19/9/14
I am gooner now
I'm a little shaky on the correct theory of the system to be honest, but like most systems it can be more fluid in practise.
For example, with the central midfielder advancing in possession, it becomes more of a 4-2-3-1. In defence, the central midfielder helps out the other two of the "three". That's a lot of responsibility for the central midfielder!
One thing I do know - Arteta/Flamini are not equipped to play the 1 in our present 4-1-4-1!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted on 19/9/14
Bluedroog
who out of Ramsey and Wilshere would you like to see do more running and who more emphasis on attack?
------------------------------------------------------
That's the tricky one. Ramsey is better defensively, but can also make great runs from deep, as last year. Wilshere possibly has better control/passing ability.
posted on 19/9/14
comment by Armchair Judgement (U6850)
posted 2 hours, 5 minutes ago
Bluedroog
who out of Ramsey and Wilshere would you like to see do more running and who more emphasis on attack?
------------------------------------------------------
That's the tricky one. Ramsey is better defensively, but can also make great runs from deep, as last year. Wilshere possibly has better control/passing ability.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ramsey plays his best football from deep. Wilshere is more of an attacking player.
Why would anyone want to play them both out of position?
Page 1 of 1