comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 4 hours, 45 minutes ago
MA, with respect that's why I apologised.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeh no problem GC -- it has always irked me slightly that nobody was held to account for senna"s death when the fault was clearly not his --
so what did they do when lamy had his accident -
------ they put a vauxhall on track as a safety car which caused senna"s tyre temp to drop which contributed in the death of the greatest driver that this planet will ever see , then of course they do what they do best and introduce a range of safety precautions after the horrendous events of may 1st 94 --
====================
Dru has responded to this already and I can confirm this is still being pursued in the courts in Italy. I know a couple of guys involved with it.
Martial, Senna was a great driver, but he was not the greatest we will ever see or the greatest of his generation or his predecessors. His tragic death has played a role in developing this 'deified' image of him but we need to look at the facts and evidence.
with respect manx what do you really know about senna , note the word " really " as again with respect you was too young to know anything about him ,about his cars , about his competitors , and his competitors cars ,
----- so how can you seriously talk knowledgeably about a driver you know nothing about ?
do you really want me to show you all the credible polls by drivers and historians that rate him the best ever -
--------- no of course you dont
Martial, there are two very powerful tools, one of them is print media, the other is the internet. Very useful tools indeed.
I am amazed you said Senna is the greatest driver we will ever see, considering the world has not ended. How did you arrive at this conclusion?
I wager I know a lot more about Senna than you do and I am 100% sure I watched him race live and in person more times than you have.
So I know a lot about Mr Senna, a superb driver indeed. Greatest, no chance
Martial I also know a lot about world war 1 and 2 than a lot of soldiers who fought in them. I was not born then either. You do not have to see something as an adult to develop an opinion about it.
Senna was phenomenal, a great driver, not taking anything away from him, just do not believe he was the greatest. There are other candidates for that award
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 12 minutes ago
Martial, there are two very powerful tools, one of them is print media, the other is the internet. Very useful tools indeed.
I am amazed you said Senna is the greatest driver we will ever see, considering the world has not ended. How did you arrive at this conclusion?
I wager I know a lot more about Senna than you do and I am 100% sure I watched him race live and in person more times than you have.
So I know a lot about Mr Senna, a superb driver indeed. Greatest, no chance
----------------------------------------------------------------------
manx -- you never saw senna so how an earth can you form any kind of knowledgeable opinion on him -- little you tube clips which is effectively what you are talking about dont come remotely close in painting the full picture of a driver -
as for knowing more about senna than me --- you did not even know where you supposedly saw him race let alone even knowing what car he was even driving when you supposedly saw that race when i asked you about it a few weeks ago --
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 16 minutes ago
Martial I also know a lot about world war 1 and 2 than a lot of soldiers who fought in them. I was not born then either. You do not have to see something as an adult to develop an opinion about it.
Senna was phenomenal, a great driver, not taking anything away from him, just do not believe he was the greatest. There are other candidates for that award
----------------------------------------------------------------------
so you read a couple of books about the two world wars
------- we have all done that at school -
how does that relate to knowing the fine detail about a driver"s career , his cars , what he could do in those cars , his competitors , his competitors cars and what they could do in there respective cars --
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire(U9612)
posted 12 minutes ago
Martial, there are two very powerful tools, one of them is print media, the other is the internet. Very useful tools indeed.
I am amazed you said Senna is the greatest driver we will ever see, considering the world has not ended. How did you arrive at this conclusion?
I wager I know a lot more about Senna than you do and I am 100% sure I watched him race live and in person more times than you have.
So I know a lot about Mr Senna, a superb driver indeed. Greatest, no chance
----------------------------------------------------------------------
manx -- you never saw senna so how an earth can you form any kind of knowledgeable opinion on him -- little you tube clips which is effectively what you are talking about dont come remotely close in painting the full picture of a driver -
==================
Correction, I saw Senna race multiple times, in person on the TV. So wrong again.
as for knowing more about senna than me --- you did not even know where you supposedly saw him race let alone even knowing what car he was even driving when you supposedly saw that race when i asked you about it a few weeks ago --
========================
I was mocking you on that discussion, it went over your head again. I am amazed you did not notice. I was very obvious.
Martial, I do not want to argue with you because quite honestly it is a waste of time.
You cannot say a driver is the greatest we will ever see because the sport is still happening and the world has not ended.
He was not the greatest in his generation and there were others greater than he was that were on the scene before him. There will be others a lot greater in the future.
Those are facts, you can have your own truth or interpretation of events but you cannot have your own facts
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire(U9612)
posted 12 minutes ago
Martial, there are two very powerful tools, one of them is print media, the other is the internet. Very useful tools indeed.
I am amazed you said Senna is the greatest driver we will ever see, considering the world has not ended. How did you arrive at this conclusion?
I wager I know a lot more about Senna than you do and I am 100% sure I watched him race live and in person more times than you have.
So I know a lot about Mr Senna, a superb driver indeed. Greatest, no chance
----------------------------------------------------------------------
manx -- you never saw senna so how an earth can you form any kind of knowledgeable opinion on him -- little you tube clips which is effectively what you are talking about dont come remotely close in painting the full picture of a driver -
==================
Correction, I saw Senna race multiple times, in person on the TV. So wrong again.
as for knowing more about senna than me --- you did not even know where you supposedly saw him race let alone even knowing what car he was even driving when you supposedly saw that race when i asked you about it a few weeks ago --
========================
I was mocking you on that discussion, it went over your head again. I am amazed you did not notice. I was very obvious.
Martial, I do not want to argue with you because quite honestly it is a waste of time.
You cannot say a driver is the greatest we will ever see because the sport is still happening and the world has not ended.
He was not the greatest in his generation and there were others greater than he was that were on the scene before him. There will be others a lot greater in the future.
Those are facts, you can have your own truth or interpretation of events but you cannot have your own facts
----------------------------------------------------------------------
See manx --------- i never know if you are mocking me or just making up little fairy tales as it is only when i bring up your young age at the time you start to change your argument about senna --
very true we do not know what will come along in the future but as there has been nobody remotely as complete as senna on just about every level since his death it is unlikely we will ever see his like again in our lifetime
----------- agree it is just about possible if they try and clone themselves on senna but highly unlikely --
Martial & Go
I think the points raised are absolutely valid and share many factors. I believe Senna was no doubt the best driver of his generation, and if you consider the cars and how difficult they were to drive possibly the greatest ever open wheel racer.
Facts that are known, steering column had been poorly repaired and showed clear areas of no weld point and fatigue and corrosion inside and around the world point. However did it break in the crash out did it break causing the crash. Based on my own professional experience and my own opinion I believe it to be the latter as i completely agree with Martial that a driver of Sennas ability would not have made such a rookie error even if the lift oversteer argument held water.
I also agree that the tragedy has had more than its fair share of nut job theorist however I also agree no one at Williams intended to cause a death but they still lied, data still vanished and the FIA in my opinion scapegoated the dead. Regardless of opinion that was disgusting.
As this is my thread, IMHO Senna was the best driver I have seen till now. Greatest EVER, impossible to say as MUDD says, time goes on and a bettter driver may emerge.
Definition of the greatest / best, is purely subjective.
There are numerous criteria you can use. My main criteria is an apparent natural ability to get the most out of the car, and throwing it through corners etc with ease.
Other than a couple of occasions like Brazil when he supposedly had spasms (though I though some play acting for the crowd was being used there), he rarely seemed to be exhausted after a race. Remembering most of his career he didn't have power steering or semi automatic gearboxes. Certainly no buttons for gear changes, he had to use his right hand to move the gear lever, plus clutch use too.
As far as knowing what other people have or haven't seen, sometimes it's best to accept their word.
I have NEVER been to an F1 race but have tried to see every broadcast GP in the last 30 plus years, preferably live but if it had to be highlights so be it. Does this make me less able to have an opinion? No. In fact being at a race you may get the atmosphere, but you miss quite a lot of the action.
So can we please lets drop the "I have seen xyz and you haven't" type argument on THIS thread.
Thank you
Just seen the above posts so will try to give my own personal opinion.
Being pragmatic I feel its probably naive to say Senna was the greatest driver. Of his generation absolutely no doubt but of those before him I am not so sure.
My late father was coming to the end of his career in Motorsport in 94 but was still actively involved with F1. For obvious reasons I will not go into anymore detail but I will admit that my own career was very much thanks to his coat tails
During that season I was between college and uni so was very lucky to see quite a few GP's in 94 and got to see Senna racing in the flesh. When you consider the cars alone from that era they were all top class drivers and to a degree would probably outshine many of the sports stars of today. The cars were unpredictable, very very fast, relied to heavily on ground effect aero packages that made them inherently unstable and very difficult to driver.
If you look around a car from their generation and compare to today's they in reality they share very little actual DNA and were very primitive, seriously could you see Mercedes cutting a steering column and mig welding it back together in the pits
However when you consider the greats of the 50's 60's and 70's then it is difficult to argue when you consider all the factors that Senna was the greatest in the same way its difficult to make the same comparisons of the drivers of today. Could anyone see Hamilton pulling the same moves in an F92A or a FW14B, personally I think it would be highly doubtful.
He was an amazing driver but he was risky and arrogant to the point of endangering other drivers. However as a complete all rounder he was to a degree in a class of his own and as much as it pains me to say it the only driver that has ever come close to that roundedness is Alonzo.
I personally think Senna is one of the best. No doubts whatsoever, however the greatest, I do not think so, there are others who raced not just in F1 but across multiple single seater classes.
A lot of the deification of Senna is due to his tragic death. If he had not passed away, it would temper some of the views expressed about him. Greats like Fangio, Ickx, Moss, et al would be considered greats as well.
Natural ability as well is another subjective term, for example, Michael Schumacher turns up at an F1 track, Spa, never driven there, matches his experienced team mate and outqualifies him.
You have people in the sport saying his fitness levels and technical ability were unmatched. I have no issues saying Senna was great but greatest? How do we measure that?
Regarding the comment about you were too young or never saw Senna, it is quite frankly nonsense as it does not mean anything as there is so much information available these days. The races are on youtube as well for those interested.
Martial just says that to get a rise out of people which is unfortunate
Dru, totally agree with people probably lied. Still think the break was a result of the crash. Hero of minethough he was I don't think Senna's mind was on the ball that day. He was suddenly aware of his own mortality. I seriously think he should not have raced that day. A thought I believe was shared by his friend Sid Wadkins. After Friday and Saturday he was extremely withdrawn. More so than anyone else seemed to be. And after the Lamy crash he should have just gone back to the pits... easy to say after the event.
comment by Dru We_Are_Coming_Forest (U1626)
posted 7 hours, 20 minutes ago
Martial & Go
I think the points raised are absolutely valid and share many factors. I believe Senna was no doubt the best driver of his generation, and if you consider the cars and how difficult they were to drive possibly the greatest ever open wheel racer.
Facts that are known, steering column had been poorly repaired and showed clear areas of no weld point and fatigue and corrosion inside and around the world point. However did it break in the crash out did it break causing the crash. Based on my own professional experience and my own opinion I believe it to be the latter as i completely agree with Martial that a driver of Sennas ability would not have made such a rookie error even if the lift oversteer argument held water.
I also agree that the tragedy has had more than its fair share of nut job theorist however I also agree no one at Williams intended to cause a death but they still lied, data still vanished and the FIA in my opinion scapegoated the dead. Regardless of opinion that was disgusting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
as i said dru -- shades of hillsborough 1989 with nobody wanting to admit culpability -
will be interesting to see when the standing start from a safety car period comes into effect next year if whiting and his cronies accept responsibility for there idea if god forbid a bad accident ever happens --
comment by Dru We_Are_Coming_Forest (U1626)
posted 6 hours, 57 minutes ago
Just seen the above posts so will try to give my own personal opinion.
Being pragmatic I feel its probably naive to say Senna was the greatest driver. Of his generation absolutely no doubt but of those before him I am not so sure.
My late father was coming to the end of his career in Motorsport in 94 but was still actively involved with F1. For obvious reasons I will not go into anymore detail but I will admit that my own career was very much thanks to his coat tails
During that season I was between college and uni so was very lucky to see quite a few GP's in 94 and got to see Senna racing in the flesh. When you consider the cars alone from that era they were all top class drivers and to a degree would probably outshine many of the sports stars of today. The cars were unpredictable, very very fast, relied to heavily on ground effect aero packages that made them inherently unstable and very difficult to driver.
If you look around a car from their generation and compare to today's they in reality they share very little actual DNA and were very primitive, seriously could you see Mercedes cutting a steering column and mig welding it back together in the pits
However when you consider the greats of the 50's 60's and 70's then it is difficult to argue when you consider all the factors that Senna was the greatest in the same way its difficult to make the same comparisons of the drivers of today. Could anyone see Hamilton pulling the same moves in an F92A or a FW14B, personally I think it would be highly doubtful.
He was an amazing driver but he was risky and arrogant to the point of endangering other drivers. However as a complete all rounder he was to a degree in a class of his own and as much as it pains me to say it the only driver that has ever come close to that roundedness is Alonzo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
alot of good points there dru about the drivers from earlier era"s -
--- however knowing what we all know about senna and his ability in very average cars you have to ask yourself is there any other driver in the history of the sport could do what he did in such average equipment --
that for me is the question that has to be asked when you compare the real greats of the sport --
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 7 hours, 8 minutes ago
I personally think Senna is one of the best. No doubts whatsoever, however the greatest, I do not think so, there are others who raced not just in F1 but across multiple single seater classes.
A lot of the deification of Senna is due to his tragic death. If he had not passed away, it would temper some of the views expressed about him. Greats like Fangio, Ickx, Moss, et al would be considered greats as well.
Natural ability as well is another subjective term, for example, Michael Schumacher turns up at an F1 track, Spa, never driven there, matches his experienced team mate and outqualifies him.
You have people in the sport saying his fitness levels and technical ability were unmatched. I have no issues saying Senna was great but greatest? How do we measure that?
Regarding the comment about you were too young or never saw Senna, it is quite frankly nonsense as it does not mean anything as there is so much information available these days. The races are on youtube as well for those interested.
Martial just says that to get a rise out of people which is unfortunate
----------------------------------------------------------------------
fangio , moss , clark , prost ,amongst others are considered to be greats as well manx - but there is one name that constantly tops every credible poll that has ever been formulated by the historians over the yrs
--------- there obviously has to be a reason for that -
sorry manx it is not my intention to " get a rise from you "- it just defeats any logical argument that i can think of that you personally have much idea about senna , his cars , his chassis"s , his rivals , his rivals cars ,etc when you were merely 4 yrs old when senna started his F1 career --
------- sorry manx it is just laughable to think that little you tube clips throw any real light on a drivers career -
MA, for once I am in agreement with you about Senna.
However I do feel you put others points of view down due to their age etc. And why the comment about You Tube videos? Didn't you say you had old videos of races? Would it be feasible that others may too. And there are plenty of books out there to tell us about people, and Senna has plenty written about him
This is a world of availability of information.
We can usually find anything we want using the internet. Whether or not we decide to believe what we see or read is our own decision normally based on our own pre-conceived opinions. Some of us pick out the bits that support our opinions and ignore those that don't.
I like to think I look at both sides of an argument and then come to a conclusion. If I'm wrong I hope I am man enough to admit it. However to refuse to accept others have an opinion based on evidence, or to dismiss that evidence on the basis it is worthless is bad enough but to do so on someones age is worse.
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Page 2 of 2
posted on 13/10/14
comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 4 hours, 45 minutes ago
MA, with respect that's why I apologised.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeh no problem GC -- it has always irked me slightly that nobody was held to account for senna"s death when the fault was clearly not his --
posted on 13/10/14
so what did they do when lamy had his accident -
------ they put a vauxhall on track as a safety car which caused senna"s tyre temp to drop which contributed in the death of the greatest driver that this planet will ever see , then of course they do what they do best and introduce a range of safety precautions after the horrendous events of may 1st 94 --
====================
Dru has responded to this already and I can confirm this is still being pursued in the courts in Italy. I know a couple of guys involved with it.
Martial, Senna was a great driver, but he was not the greatest we will ever see or the greatest of his generation or his predecessors. His tragic death has played a role in developing this 'deified' image of him but we need to look at the facts and evidence.
posted on 13/10/14
with respect manx what do you really know about senna , note the word " really " as again with respect you was too young to know anything about him ,about his cars , about his competitors , and his competitors cars ,
----- so how can you seriously talk knowledgeably about a driver you know nothing about ?
do you really want me to show you all the credible polls by drivers and historians that rate him the best ever -
--------- no of course you dont
posted on 13/10/14
Martial, there are two very powerful tools, one of them is print media, the other is the internet. Very useful tools indeed.
I am amazed you said Senna is the greatest driver we will ever see, considering the world has not ended. How did you arrive at this conclusion?
I wager I know a lot more about Senna than you do and I am 100% sure I watched him race live and in person more times than you have.
So I know a lot about Mr Senna, a superb driver indeed. Greatest, no chance
posted on 13/10/14
Martial I also know a lot about world war 1 and 2 than a lot of soldiers who fought in them. I was not born then either. You do not have to see something as an adult to develop an opinion about it.
Senna was phenomenal, a great driver, not taking anything away from him, just do not believe he was the greatest. There are other candidates for that award
posted on 13/10/14
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 12 minutes ago
Martial, there are two very powerful tools, one of them is print media, the other is the internet. Very useful tools indeed.
I am amazed you said Senna is the greatest driver we will ever see, considering the world has not ended. How did you arrive at this conclusion?
I wager I know a lot more about Senna than you do and I am 100% sure I watched him race live and in person more times than you have.
So I know a lot about Mr Senna, a superb driver indeed. Greatest, no chance
----------------------------------------------------------------------
manx -- you never saw senna so how an earth can you form any kind of knowledgeable opinion on him -- little you tube clips which is effectively what you are talking about dont come remotely close in painting the full picture of a driver -
as for knowing more about senna than me --- you did not even know where you supposedly saw him race let alone even knowing what car he was even driving when you supposedly saw that race when i asked you about it a few weeks ago --
posted on 13/10/14
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 16 minutes ago
Martial I also know a lot about world war 1 and 2 than a lot of soldiers who fought in them. I was not born then either. You do not have to see something as an adult to develop an opinion about it.
Senna was phenomenal, a great driver, not taking anything away from him, just do not believe he was the greatest. There are other candidates for that award
----------------------------------------------------------------------
so you read a couple of books about the two world wars
------- we have all done that at school -
how does that relate to knowing the fine detail about a driver"s career , his cars , what he could do in those cars , his competitors , his competitors cars and what they could do in there respective cars --
posted on 13/10/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 13/10/14
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire(U9612)
posted 12 minutes ago
Martial, there are two very powerful tools, one of them is print media, the other is the internet. Very useful tools indeed.
I am amazed you said Senna is the greatest driver we will ever see, considering the world has not ended. How did you arrive at this conclusion?
I wager I know a lot more about Senna than you do and I am 100% sure I watched him race live and in person more times than you have.
So I know a lot about Mr Senna, a superb driver indeed. Greatest, no chance
----------------------------------------------------------------------
manx -- you never saw senna so how an earth can you form any kind of knowledgeable opinion on him -- little you tube clips which is effectively what you are talking about dont come remotely close in painting the full picture of a driver -
==================
Correction, I saw Senna race multiple times, in person on the TV. So wrong again.
as for knowing more about senna than me --- you did not even know where you supposedly saw him race let alone even knowing what car he was even driving when you supposedly saw that race when i asked you about it a few weeks ago --
========================
I was mocking you on that discussion, it went over your head again. I am amazed you did not notice. I was very obvious.
Martial, I do not want to argue with you because quite honestly it is a waste of time.
You cannot say a driver is the greatest we will ever see because the sport is still happening and the world has not ended.
He was not the greatest in his generation and there were others greater than he was that were on the scene before him. There will be others a lot greater in the future.
Those are facts, you can have your own truth or interpretation of events but you cannot have your own facts
posted on 13/10/14
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire(U9612)
posted 12 minutes ago
Martial, there are two very powerful tools, one of them is print media, the other is the internet. Very useful tools indeed.
I am amazed you said Senna is the greatest driver we will ever see, considering the world has not ended. How did you arrive at this conclusion?
I wager I know a lot more about Senna than you do and I am 100% sure I watched him race live and in person more times than you have.
So I know a lot about Mr Senna, a superb driver indeed. Greatest, no chance
----------------------------------------------------------------------
manx -- you never saw senna so how an earth can you form any kind of knowledgeable opinion on him -- little you tube clips which is effectively what you are talking about dont come remotely close in painting the full picture of a driver -
==================
Correction, I saw Senna race multiple times, in person on the TV. So wrong again.
as for knowing more about senna than me --- you did not even know where you supposedly saw him race let alone even knowing what car he was even driving when you supposedly saw that race when i asked you about it a few weeks ago --
========================
I was mocking you on that discussion, it went over your head again. I am amazed you did not notice. I was very obvious.
Martial, I do not want to argue with you because quite honestly it is a waste of time.
You cannot say a driver is the greatest we will ever see because the sport is still happening and the world has not ended.
He was not the greatest in his generation and there were others greater than he was that were on the scene before him. There will be others a lot greater in the future.
Those are facts, you can have your own truth or interpretation of events but you cannot have your own facts
----------------------------------------------------------------------
See manx --------- i never know if you are mocking me or just making up little fairy tales as it is only when i bring up your young age at the time you start to change your argument about senna --
very true we do not know what will come along in the future but as there has been nobody remotely as complete as senna on just about every level since his death it is unlikely we will ever see his like again in our lifetime
----------- agree it is just about possible if they try and clone themselves on senna but highly unlikely --
posted on 13/10/14
Martial & Go
I think the points raised are absolutely valid and share many factors. I believe Senna was no doubt the best driver of his generation, and if you consider the cars and how difficult they were to drive possibly the greatest ever open wheel racer.
Facts that are known, steering column had been poorly repaired and showed clear areas of no weld point and fatigue and corrosion inside and around the world point. However did it break in the crash out did it break causing the crash. Based on my own professional experience and my own opinion I believe it to be the latter as i completely agree with Martial that a driver of Sennas ability would not have made such a rookie error even if the lift oversteer argument held water.
I also agree that the tragedy has had more than its fair share of nut job theorist however I also agree no one at Williams intended to cause a death but they still lied, data still vanished and the FIA in my opinion scapegoated the dead. Regardless of opinion that was disgusting.
posted on 13/10/14
As this is my thread, IMHO Senna was the best driver I have seen till now. Greatest EVER, impossible to say as MUDD says, time goes on and a bettter driver may emerge.
Definition of the greatest / best, is purely subjective.
There are numerous criteria you can use. My main criteria is an apparent natural ability to get the most out of the car, and throwing it through corners etc with ease.
Other than a couple of occasions like Brazil when he supposedly had spasms (though I though some play acting for the crowd was being used there), he rarely seemed to be exhausted after a race. Remembering most of his career he didn't have power steering or semi automatic gearboxes. Certainly no buttons for gear changes, he had to use his right hand to move the gear lever, plus clutch use too.
As far as knowing what other people have or haven't seen, sometimes it's best to accept their word.
I have NEVER been to an F1 race but have tried to see every broadcast GP in the last 30 plus years, preferably live but if it had to be highlights so be it. Does this make me less able to have an opinion? No. In fact being at a race you may get the atmosphere, but you miss quite a lot of the action.
So can we please lets drop the "I have seen xyz and you haven't" type argument on THIS thread.
Thank you
posted on 13/10/14
Just seen the above posts so will try to give my own personal opinion.
Being pragmatic I feel its probably naive to say Senna was the greatest driver. Of his generation absolutely no doubt but of those before him I am not so sure.
My late father was coming to the end of his career in Motorsport in 94 but was still actively involved with F1. For obvious reasons I will not go into anymore detail but I will admit that my own career was very much thanks to his coat tails
During that season I was between college and uni so was very lucky to see quite a few GP's in 94 and got to see Senna racing in the flesh. When you consider the cars alone from that era they were all top class drivers and to a degree would probably outshine many of the sports stars of today. The cars were unpredictable, very very fast, relied to heavily on ground effect aero packages that made them inherently unstable and very difficult to driver.
If you look around a car from their generation and compare to today's they in reality they share very little actual DNA and were very primitive, seriously could you see Mercedes cutting a steering column and mig welding it back together in the pits
However when you consider the greats of the 50's 60's and 70's then it is difficult to argue when you consider all the factors that Senna was the greatest in the same way its difficult to make the same comparisons of the drivers of today. Could anyone see Hamilton pulling the same moves in an F92A or a FW14B, personally I think it would be highly doubtful.
He was an amazing driver but he was risky and arrogant to the point of endangering other drivers. However as a complete all rounder he was to a degree in a class of his own and as much as it pains me to say it the only driver that has ever come close to that roundedness is Alonzo.
posted on 13/10/14
I personally think Senna is one of the best. No doubts whatsoever, however the greatest, I do not think so, there are others who raced not just in F1 but across multiple single seater classes.
A lot of the deification of Senna is due to his tragic death. If he had not passed away, it would temper some of the views expressed about him. Greats like Fangio, Ickx, Moss, et al would be considered greats as well.
Natural ability as well is another subjective term, for example, Michael Schumacher turns up at an F1 track, Spa, never driven there, matches his experienced team mate and outqualifies him.
You have people in the sport saying his fitness levels and technical ability were unmatched. I have no issues saying Senna was great but greatest? How do we measure that?
Regarding the comment about you were too young or never saw Senna, it is quite frankly nonsense as it does not mean anything as there is so much information available these days. The races are on youtube as well for those interested.
Martial just says that to get a rise out of people which is unfortunate
posted on 13/10/14
Dru, totally agree with people probably lied. Still think the break was a result of the crash. Hero of minethough he was I don't think Senna's mind was on the ball that day. He was suddenly aware of his own mortality. I seriously think he should not have raced that day. A thought I believe was shared by his friend Sid Wadkins. After Friday and Saturday he was extremely withdrawn. More so than anyone else seemed to be. And after the Lamy crash he should have just gone back to the pits... easy to say after the event.
posted on 13/10/14
comment by Dru We_Are_Coming_Forest (U1626)
posted 7 hours, 20 minutes ago
Martial & Go
I think the points raised are absolutely valid and share many factors. I believe Senna was no doubt the best driver of his generation, and if you consider the cars and how difficult they were to drive possibly the greatest ever open wheel racer.
Facts that are known, steering column had been poorly repaired and showed clear areas of no weld point and fatigue and corrosion inside and around the world point. However did it break in the crash out did it break causing the crash. Based on my own professional experience and my own opinion I believe it to be the latter as i completely agree with Martial that a driver of Sennas ability would not have made such a rookie error even if the lift oversteer argument held water.
I also agree that the tragedy has had more than its fair share of nut job theorist however I also agree no one at Williams intended to cause a death but they still lied, data still vanished and the FIA in my opinion scapegoated the dead. Regardless of opinion that was disgusting.
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as i said dru -- shades of hillsborough 1989 with nobody wanting to admit culpability -
will be interesting to see when the standing start from a safety car period comes into effect next year if whiting and his cronies accept responsibility for there idea if god forbid a bad accident ever happens --
posted on 13/10/14
comment by Dru We_Are_Coming_Forest (U1626)
posted 6 hours, 57 minutes ago
Just seen the above posts so will try to give my own personal opinion.
Being pragmatic I feel its probably naive to say Senna was the greatest driver. Of his generation absolutely no doubt but of those before him I am not so sure.
My late father was coming to the end of his career in Motorsport in 94 but was still actively involved with F1. For obvious reasons I will not go into anymore detail but I will admit that my own career was very much thanks to his coat tails
During that season I was between college and uni so was very lucky to see quite a few GP's in 94 and got to see Senna racing in the flesh. When you consider the cars alone from that era they were all top class drivers and to a degree would probably outshine many of the sports stars of today. The cars were unpredictable, very very fast, relied to heavily on ground effect aero packages that made them inherently unstable and very difficult to driver.
If you look around a car from their generation and compare to today's they in reality they share very little actual DNA and were very primitive, seriously could you see Mercedes cutting a steering column and mig welding it back together in the pits
However when you consider the greats of the 50's 60's and 70's then it is difficult to argue when you consider all the factors that Senna was the greatest in the same way its difficult to make the same comparisons of the drivers of today. Could anyone see Hamilton pulling the same moves in an F92A or a FW14B, personally I think it would be highly doubtful.
He was an amazing driver but he was risky and arrogant to the point of endangering other drivers. However as a complete all rounder he was to a degree in a class of his own and as much as it pains me to say it the only driver that has ever come close to that roundedness is Alonzo.
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alot of good points there dru about the drivers from earlier era"s -
--- however knowing what we all know about senna and his ability in very average cars you have to ask yourself is there any other driver in the history of the sport could do what he did in such average equipment --
that for me is the question that has to be asked when you compare the real greats of the sport --
posted on 13/10/14
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 7 hours, 8 minutes ago
I personally think Senna is one of the best. No doubts whatsoever, however the greatest, I do not think so, there are others who raced not just in F1 but across multiple single seater classes.
A lot of the deification of Senna is due to his tragic death. If he had not passed away, it would temper some of the views expressed about him. Greats like Fangio, Ickx, Moss, et al would be considered greats as well.
Natural ability as well is another subjective term, for example, Michael Schumacher turns up at an F1 track, Spa, never driven there, matches his experienced team mate and outqualifies him.
You have people in the sport saying his fitness levels and technical ability were unmatched. I have no issues saying Senna was great but greatest? How do we measure that?
Regarding the comment about you were too young or never saw Senna, it is quite frankly nonsense as it does not mean anything as there is so much information available these days. The races are on youtube as well for those interested.
Martial just says that to get a rise out of people which is unfortunate
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fangio , moss , clark , prost ,amongst others are considered to be greats as well manx - but there is one name that constantly tops every credible poll that has ever been formulated by the historians over the yrs
--------- there obviously has to be a reason for that -
sorry manx it is not my intention to " get a rise from you "- it just defeats any logical argument that i can think of that you personally have much idea about senna , his cars , his chassis"s , his rivals , his rivals cars ,etc when you were merely 4 yrs old when senna started his F1 career --
------- sorry manx it is just laughable to think that little you tube clips throw any real light on a drivers career -
posted on 13/10/14
MA, for once I am in agreement with you about Senna.
However I do feel you put others points of view down due to their age etc. And why the comment about You Tube videos? Didn't you say you had old videos of races? Would it be feasible that others may too. And there are plenty of books out there to tell us about people, and Senna has plenty written about him
This is a world of availability of information.
We can usually find anything we want using the internet. Whether or not we decide to believe what we see or read is our own decision normally based on our own pre-conceived opinions. Some of us pick out the bits that support our opinions and ignore those that don't.
I like to think I look at both sides of an argument and then come to a conclusion. If I'm wrong I hope I am man enough to admit it. However to refuse to accept others have an opinion based on evidence, or to dismiss that evidence on the basis it is worthless is bad enough but to do so on someones age is worse.
posted on 14/10/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
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