Take that back! Crazy Joe is king of all he surveys!
From memory, Galileo used the stars as part of his proof, I suppose we are both right, he found evidence and formed a round earth theory around it...
Anyway, good debate, enjoyed it...
I think that most people on here do not know what the definition of delusion is.
It is certainly used incorrectly by most of the people I see use it.
Anyway, I look at the title race in the same way as a horse race, 20 runners with Liverpool as the 12/1 4th favourite. As in a horse race there are a lot of factors that will determine the result. With the title race you have negative factors such as injuries, suspensions, poor form, loss of form, not being able to produce last season's form, anomalies such as squad unrest, absence, new players taking time to gel, new managers taking time to adapt, surprise results, results in other competitions etc. Positive factors that will play apart are things such as good form, lack of injuries, players gelling, managers adapting, squad cohesion, performing better than last season etc.
With all these factors to consider, and of course they can happen to any team at any time, I think it is obvious that to suggest the 4th favourite cannot win and to think so is delusional is in fact a delusional statement! Of course they can win, it is not as likely as the 3 teams ahead of them but it is a real possibility.
If Liverpool did not have a chance of winning the title, or the thought of Liverpool winning the title was a delusional thought then they would be 500/1 with the bookies...I had a bet today and won with a 12/1 shot, I studied the form and thought it had a chance... the favourite fell, the 2nd favourite did not perform as expected and the 3rd favourite finished a close 2nd! See, it can happen!
As always BBT you sink to new lows with every post...
First you go on about incorrect usage of the word, then you use that word in the very same incorrect way you complained about.
Which is good as you obviously agree with the somewhat common usage of that word so no need to for me to debate that with you...
Incase your wondering
.............................................
or the thought of Liverpool winning the title was a delusional thought then they would be 500/1 with the bookies
.............................................
As was discussed earlier if it's possible for it too happen its not technically delusion, which is what you argued, but then if they are 500/1 it could actually happen, it is actually extreme optimism. Delusion is a fairly commonly accepted alternative to over optimism.
Secondly you have compared a one off event, a horse race, to a 38 game league, a horse race is much more comparable to a single game, which as we know can go any way, but for your 12/1 shot to consistently outperform those favourites over an extended period of races is far less likely than that one lucky win...
When we move back into football is becomes even less likely again, a single horse falling will cost it a race, but a single footballer making a horrific mistake can be made up for by that player and all his teammates. One player out of form or injured can easily be made up for by the other 10 men on the pitch...
You are also ignoring the fact (last time I checked) that Arsenal and Liverpool are joint 4th favourites, so its not just 3 better teams Liverpool have to compete with its one similar team they also have to outperform...
We don't see Arsenal fans suffer with this over optimism, we can even see some Chelsea fans feeling pretty pessimistic about their chances and City fans aren't feeling all that confident either, only really United fans mostly seem confident (some overly, some cautiously optimistic)
So this paticular brand of over optimism or delusion as is commonly used by you and others does seem to be more specific to Liverpool than other teams...
I have no doubt you'll retreat back to your usual intellectually cowardly method of sniping from the sidelines and dodging points and questions in a pointless attempt to hold up your flawed argument.
BTW if anyone thinks I am being harsh this guy wums the United board daily, he deserves it... no offence intended to the regular Pool fans...
With the title race you have negative factors such as injuries, suspensions, poor form, loss of form, not being able to produce last season's form, anomalies such as squad unrest, absence, new players taking time to gel, new managers taking time to adapt, surprise results, results in other competitions etc.
**************************************
why do you say etc.? you've already named every bloody title in the bloody football bible.
Lottery is 49x48x47x46x45x44 = 1 in 14m chance.
I think...
Anyway op don't encourage them, we're hounded enough in this board as it is, you're never gonna get a sensible debate posing these questions.
Hey, I thought it was a sensible debate... Hopefully evidenced by the paucity of smileys. Anyway, if we het the debate going in here, it might stop the other threads being littered so much with that particular word and other similarly misused and misquoted words/phrases
Whatever BBT post history, he's not far wrong. The combined odds over the season are 12/1 not on a simple game. I think the bookies are savvy enough to understand the point. You are correct though. If odds are quoted then it could possibly happen and therefore isn't delusional.
Oh... And arsenal are 16/1 and as such are 5th in the odds, not joint 4th
"I think Galileo only had theories to go on at first. He couldn't prove the earth was round until someone actually looked at it from above in truth."
====================
Galileo did not need to prove that the Earth was round. Hellenistic astronomy had established that some 1800 years before the birth of Galileo.
Are you confusing the shift from geocentricism to a heliocentric viewpoint? This support of the postulations of Copernicus was one the reasons for his fame and and also his trial by the inquisition, and subsequent house arrest.
May I just say that I found this an excellent thread.
To be honest I do not mind the deluded thing - it's laughable tbh.
It has become the new "Next Year is our Year" and it seems people need desperately, certainly on this site, to pigeon hole and group people together without thought or reason to the actual actions of the person they label it on.
How often do you see people write "typical scouser" or "typical manc"?
The reality is that there is a good chance the person is not an actual scouser or manc at all. They could be from anywhere.
What I do find interesting is that these comments usually come in retort to either a good point well made or an insult.
Either way it's a small minded cop out and although I am a bit of a pedant and need to react it is something that I and others should really rise above.
7_The_Best (U5768)
The horse race comparison was basically to do with the odds on offer!
Liverpool are 12/1 to win the title, not 12/1 to outperform the other teams week in week out, or constantly over an extended period as you put it...simply 12/1 to win the competition!
I know there are faults in my example, but the fact remains that if the fourth favourite was to win a competition it would be no real shock, as in you would be delusional in thinking this may happen!
By the way, you weren't being harsh, you basically just showed that you cannot engage with me without having a dig for some reason! I really must have got under your skin on the United board for you to get all personal and nasty when imo it was not required and only reflects poorly on yourself!
Bela Lugosis's Dad thanks for the correction/astronomy lesson. I like your attention to detail. Whoever decided that the earth was round the
Point is they would have been seen as deluded at first. Clearly they were right though. Mathematical proof doesn't necessarily mean actual proof though does it? The old adage "seeing is believing" surely applied here.
BBT usual you ignore the all the parts that correct you, hardly suprising...
Liverpool do need to outperform all their rivals week in week out (in terms of gathering points) to win the league... It is even someones name on here 'the strongest teams win the premeir league' thats why your single horse race example is deeply flawed.
............................................
I know there are faults in my example, but the fact remains that if the fourth favourite was to win a competition it would be no real shock, as in you would be delusional in thinking this may happen!
............................................
Rubbish, Liverpool fans would be shocked if they won the league, similarly Arsenal fans would be shocked if they won the league, it would be very much unexpected...
I think the only Liverpool fan who wouldn't be suprised is maybe Got_Better
..............................................
By the way, you weren't being harsh, you basically just showed that you cannot engage with me without having a dig for some reason! I really must have got under your skin on the United board for you to get all personal and nasty when imo it was not required and only reflects poorly on yourself!
...................................................
Nonsense your an idoit who trys to act smart and put others down, I am simply returning the favour and putting you in your place.
7_The_Best (U5768)
Fair enough, we differ on this debate...so, if you feel the need to 'put me in my place' then so be it. Although I am not sure how you think you have done this by simply just having a difference of opinion!
Just one thing, you know when you say 'Liverpool fans/Arsenal fans would be shocked...', you do realise that your sweeping generalisation is not 100% accurate, don't you? I know Arsenal and Liverpool fans who think they have a chance of winning...are they deluded? Or just optimistic in thinking that occasionally not everything goes according to form?
Nonsense your an idoit who trys to act smart and put others down,
7_The_Best does have a very good point though!
............................
generalisation is not 100% accurate
...........................
Captain Obvious to the rescue...
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Delusion - a definition for the WUMs
Page 2 of 2
posted on 24/8/11
Take that back! Crazy Joe is king of all he surveys!
From memory, Galileo used the stars as part of his proof, I suppose we are both right, he found evidence and formed a round earth theory around it...
Anyway, good debate, enjoyed it...
posted on 24/8/11
I think that most people on here do not know what the definition of delusion is.
It is certainly used incorrectly by most of the people I see use it.
Anyway, I look at the title race in the same way as a horse race, 20 runners with Liverpool as the 12/1 4th favourite. As in a horse race there are a lot of factors that will determine the result. With the title race you have negative factors such as injuries, suspensions, poor form, loss of form, not being able to produce last season's form, anomalies such as squad unrest, absence, new players taking time to gel, new managers taking time to adapt, surprise results, results in other competitions etc. Positive factors that will play apart are things such as good form, lack of injuries, players gelling, managers adapting, squad cohesion, performing better than last season etc.
With all these factors to consider, and of course they can happen to any team at any time, I think it is obvious that to suggest the 4th favourite cannot win and to think so is delusional is in fact a delusional statement! Of course they can win, it is not as likely as the 3 teams ahead of them but it is a real possibility.
If Liverpool did not have a chance of winning the title, or the thought of Liverpool winning the title was a delusional thought then they would be 500/1 with the bookies...I had a bet today and won with a 12/1 shot, I studied the form and thought it had a chance... the favourite fell, the 2nd favourite did not perform as expected and the 3rd favourite finished a close 2nd! See, it can happen!
posted on 24/8/11
As always BBT you sink to new lows with every post...
First you go on about incorrect usage of the word, then you use that word in the very same incorrect way you complained about.
Which is good as you obviously agree with the somewhat common usage of that word so no need to for me to debate that with you...
Incase your wondering
.............................................
or the thought of Liverpool winning the title was a delusional thought then they would be 500/1 with the bookies
.............................................
As was discussed earlier if it's possible for it too happen its not technically delusion, which is what you argued, but then if they are 500/1 it could actually happen, it is actually extreme optimism. Delusion is a fairly commonly accepted alternative to over optimism.
Secondly you have compared a one off event, a horse race, to a 38 game league, a horse race is much more comparable to a single game, which as we know can go any way, but for your 12/1 shot to consistently outperform those favourites over an extended period of races is far less likely than that one lucky win...
When we move back into football is becomes even less likely again, a single horse falling will cost it a race, but a single footballer making a horrific mistake can be made up for by that player and all his teammates. One player out of form or injured can easily be made up for by the other 10 men on the pitch...
You are also ignoring the fact (last time I checked) that Arsenal and Liverpool are joint 4th favourites, so its not just 3 better teams Liverpool have to compete with its one similar team they also have to outperform...
We don't see Arsenal fans suffer with this over optimism, we can even see some Chelsea fans feeling pretty pessimistic about their chances and City fans aren't feeling all that confident either, only really United fans mostly seem confident (some overly, some cautiously optimistic)
So this paticular brand of over optimism or delusion as is commonly used by you and others does seem to be more specific to Liverpool than other teams...
I have no doubt you'll retreat back to your usual intellectually cowardly method of sniping from the sidelines and dodging points and questions in a pointless attempt to hold up your flawed argument.
BTW if anyone thinks I am being harsh this guy wums the United board daily, he deserves it... no offence intended to the regular Pool fans...
posted on 24/8/11
With the title race you have negative factors such as injuries, suspensions, poor form, loss of form, not being able to produce last season's form, anomalies such as squad unrest, absence, new players taking time to gel, new managers taking time to adapt, surprise results, results in other competitions etc.
**************************************
why do you say etc.? you've already named every bloody title in the bloody football bible.
posted on 24/8/11
Lottery is 49x48x47x46x45x44 = 1 in 14m chance.
I think...
Anyway op don't encourage them, we're hounded enough in this board as it is, you're never gonna get a sensible debate posing these questions.
posted on 24/8/11
Hey, I thought it was a sensible debate... Hopefully evidenced by the paucity of smileys. Anyway, if we het the debate going in here, it might stop the other threads being littered so much with that particular word and other similarly misused and misquoted words/phrases
Whatever BBT post history, he's not far wrong. The combined odds over the season are 12/1 not on a simple game. I think the bookies are savvy enough to understand the point. You are correct though. If odds are quoted then it could possibly happen and therefore isn't delusional.
posted on 24/8/11
Oh... And arsenal are 16/1 and as such are 5th in the odds, not joint 4th
posted on 24/8/11
"I think Galileo only had theories to go on at first. He couldn't prove the earth was round until someone actually looked at it from above in truth."
====================
Galileo did not need to prove that the Earth was round. Hellenistic astronomy had established that some 1800 years before the birth of Galileo.
Are you confusing the shift from geocentricism to a heliocentric viewpoint? This support of the postulations of Copernicus was one the reasons for his fame and and also his trial by the inquisition, and subsequent house arrest.
posted on 24/8/11
May I just say that I found this an excellent thread.
To be honest I do not mind the deluded thing - it's laughable tbh.
It has become the new "Next Year is our Year" and it seems people need desperately, certainly on this site, to pigeon hole and group people together without thought or reason to the actual actions of the person they label it on.
How often do you see people write "typical scouser" or "typical manc"?
The reality is that there is a good chance the person is not an actual scouser or manc at all. They could be from anywhere.
What I do find interesting is that these comments usually come in retort to either a good point well made or an insult.
Either way it's a small minded cop out and although I am a bit of a pedant and need to react it is something that I and others should really rise above.
posted on 24/8/11
7_The_Best (U5768)
The horse race comparison was basically to do with the odds on offer!
Liverpool are 12/1 to win the title, not 12/1 to outperform the other teams week in week out, or constantly over an extended period as you put it...simply 12/1 to win the competition!
I know there are faults in my example, but the fact remains that if the fourth favourite was to win a competition it would be no real shock, as in you would be delusional in thinking this may happen!
By the way, you weren't being harsh, you basically just showed that you cannot engage with me without having a dig for some reason! I really must have got under your skin on the United board for you to get all personal and nasty when imo it was not required and only reflects poorly on yourself!
posted on 24/8/11
Bela Lugosis's Dad thanks for the correction/astronomy lesson. I like your attention to detail. Whoever decided that the earth was round the
Point is they would have been seen as deluded at first. Clearly they were right though. Mathematical proof doesn't necessarily mean actual proof though does it? The old adage "seeing is believing" surely applied here.
posted on 24/8/11
BBT usual you ignore the all the parts that correct you, hardly suprising...
Liverpool do need to outperform all their rivals week in week out (in terms of gathering points) to win the league... It is even someones name on here 'the strongest teams win the premeir league' thats why your single horse race example is deeply flawed.
............................................
I know there are faults in my example, but the fact remains that if the fourth favourite was to win a competition it would be no real shock, as in you would be delusional in thinking this may happen!
............................................
Rubbish, Liverpool fans would be shocked if they won the league, similarly Arsenal fans would be shocked if they won the league, it would be very much unexpected...
I think the only Liverpool fan who wouldn't be suprised is maybe Got_Better
..............................................
By the way, you weren't being harsh, you basically just showed that you cannot engage with me without having a dig for some reason! I really must have got under your skin on the United board for you to get all personal and nasty when imo it was not required and only reflects poorly on yourself!
...................................................
Nonsense your an idoit who trys to act smart and put others down, I am simply returning the favour and putting you in your place.
posted on 24/8/11
7_The_Best (U5768)
Fair enough, we differ on this debate...so, if you feel the need to 'put me in my place' then so be it. Although I am not sure how you think you have done this by simply just having a difference of opinion!
Just one thing, you know when you say 'Liverpool fans/Arsenal fans would be shocked...', you do realise that your sweeping generalisation is not 100% accurate, don't you? I know Arsenal and Liverpool fans who think they have a chance of winning...are they deluded? Or just optimistic in thinking that occasionally not everything goes according to form?
posted on 24/8/11
Nonsense your an idoit who trys to act smart and put others down,
7_The_Best does have a very good point though!
posted on 24/8/11
It's not an act!
posted on 24/8/11
I've noticed!
posted on 24/8/11
............................
generalisation is not 100% accurate
...........................
Captain Obvious to the rescue...
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