A great manager needs a philosophy
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Adaptability, especially if you are a manager that is looking to maintain some longevity.
Squad management, keeping players focussed and hungry during successful periods
"Adaptability, especially if you are a manager that is looking to maintain some longevity."
I think you will find that we've had more than two great managers. I imagine you're thinking of Bill Shankley and Bob Paisley. People forget Joe Fagan.
He did a lot for the club over the years but in only two years as manager, he won;
1st Division
League Cup
European Cup
That's not too shabby
Depends on your definition of great, hence the article. Some form of longevity would usually be attributed to great managers. Though he had longevity at Liverpool football club, he didn't as manager, so probably why he was discounted.
Getting the best out of average/under achieving players is important - the improvement we have seen in Henderson under BR has massively helped the way our team plays.
SAF was a master at getting consistent performances out of some of his less talented players (e.g. Fletcher, Butt, P Nev, etc.). Of course it helps to have a Cantona, Suarez, Ronaldo, etc in your team but if the rest of your squad isn't pulling its weight you won't win the league. Maybe a cup or two as we did under Rafa but over 38 games you need all 25 members of the squad to perform.
but over 38 games you need all 25 members of the squad to perform.
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Any United fan will tell you this isn't true. We've had many passengers, or even liabilities in some cases, in title winning sides over the years.
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 1 minute ago
but over 38 games you need all 25 members of the squad to perform.
-----
Any United fan will tell you this isn't true. We've had many passengers, or even liabilities in some cases, in title winning sides over the years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
agreed
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 3 minutes ago
but over 38 games you need all 25 members of the squad to perform.
-----
Any United fan will tell you this isn't true. We've had many passengers, or even liabilities in some cases, in title winning sides over the years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed.
The last time we won the league, everyone apart from RVP, Carrick, Rafa and De Gea were average at best.
OK, that was an exaggeration to suggest that each and every squad member has to play his part as some very poor players have league titles to their names.
But my point about getting the most out of the lesser players in the team still stands. For instance, bloodred, that team of supposedly average-performing players still romped home to the title by over 10 points (arguably, Chelsea and City weren't great that season). However, the next season, a largely unchanged United squad only managed to get 64 points and it wasn't solely due to RVP missing half the season. In 12/13 Ferguson managed to get those average players playing a notch above the level that they would have otherwise and that is what made him a great manager, much as it pains me to say it.
And an individual level many of the average players weren't massively worse under Moyes. It was our best players that were noticeably worse.
It's a bit of a myth that Fergie always got the best out of average players as many have either remained the same or got better when playing away from Old Trafford - that's not to say that loads didn't play worse.
We were massively carried by our better players in his last season and there was never the same mentality in the team when going behind when Fergie left.
Good managers and teams with great players can mitigate the flaws of other players in the team and carry them. Getting the most out of the lesser players isn't as important as you make out, and I've seen it at United for years.
Wenger was better than all of them cretins
Darren, surely part of the reason why some of your best players looked worse under Moyes was due to age though? Rio, Vidic, Evra and RVP are all in their 30s and seem to have continued to decline this season. Haven't seen much of Juve this season so I may be mistaken on Evra...
Will take your word for it about SAF and average players though - you've obviously watched a lot more of United than I have over the years.
Thinking back on our last two title challenging seasons, we have definitely seen the non-star players stepping up and finding another level e.g. Riera, Aurelio in 08/09 and Hendo last year. Although this was probably due to these players being made to look better by playing alongside Gerrard, Torres and Xabi at their peaks in 08/09 and Suarez last year as you mention in your last paragraph.
To an extent, yes, but Rio and Evra were pretty poor, in my opinion, in Fergie's last season. RVP really carried and when he went on a dry spell Rooney also stepped up.
Our defence wasn't that good. Rafael and Vida in the second half of the season were the only defenders that really performed well for me, somehow Rio got in the team of the year.
Carrick was also quality for us and De Gea. These players were the most important in the title winning season. Rooney, despite being below par, still contributed a fair bit, and there were small contributions from the rest of the squad, but not enough to look at the team and say they'd all performed that season.
I think the biggest strength was that the passengers didn't affect the team so much that we couldn't win games. And that was a strength Fergie always had. The team could still win even if the team, or many players, weren't playing that well.
I think that is probably more along the lines of what you are thinking in regard to having lesser players in the team, rather than him getting them all to perform above their station.
Great article this.
Another thing to note that when the great managers were at their best they knew when to let go of and move on players. Their teams were always bigger than an individual.
Paisley moved on the likes of Toshack and Keegan amongst others who I cannot remember.
SAF moved on the likes of Keane, Ince, Hughes, Beckham when he felt the time was right. There were some controversies like Van Nistlerooy, Stam and Kanchelskis, but SAF still didn't let their departures ruin the balance of the team.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
It's a bit of a myth that Fergie always got the best out of average players as many have either remained the same or got better when playing away from Old Trafford - that's not to say that loads didn't play worse.
************************************************************
SAF got the likes of Wes Brown, John O Shea, Kieran Richardson, Nicky Butt, Sylvestre, Tom Cleverley etc. all win numerous league titles between them.
None of these have achieved success elsewhere, unless Cleverley single handedly turns Aston Villa's season around.
Not so many getting better but many who have looked average for United and then continued to be average when away from Old Trafford.
I'm talking players like Cleverley, Richardson, Gibson and Welbeck, more recently and players like Greening going further back. A lot of young players and squad fillers over the years.
Fergie wasn't getting massive amounts out of players of this calibre, so there wasn't a sharp decline in their level when leaving United because they'd not shown a high level for us.
SAF got the likes of Wes Brown, John O Shea, Kieran Richardson, Nicky Butt, Sylvestre, Tom Cleverley etc. all win numerous league titles between them.
--------
Wes Brown, O'Shea and Butt were certainly not average players.
Obviously they aren't going to have as much success away from United. But my point was about how he supposedly got them all performing when that hasn't been the case.
Cleverley being a great example. Just because we won the title with Cleverley didn't mean he was performing, because he was still playing at a level not acceptable for United.
The fact we won the title in spite of that is an irrelevance.
I've argued this about Fergie for many years of watching the players. He still won with many average players, but he didn't get them all performing, there's a difference, and I'll always stand by that.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
If you have a read back I addressed that point.
I think SAF worked out that in a team of 11 maybe you could get away with having 5 or 6 average players carried by 4 or 5 top players as long as the average players did the basics well.
A bit like Liverpool had some average players last season who were carried by Suarez, Gerrard and Sturridge.
And hence why when these average players went to other clubs (like Cleverley) they didn't look that great without the Rooneys or Ronaldos or DDG's to make their averageness look so invisible.
And hence why Liverpool have looked so poor this season with no Suarez, an injured Sturridge and a rapidly declining Gerrard.
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Great managers
Page 1 of 2
posted on 19/1/15
A great manager needs a philosophy
posted on 19/1/15
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 19/1/15
Adaptability, especially if you are a manager that is looking to maintain some longevity.
posted on 19/1/15
Squad management, keeping players focussed and hungry during successful periods
posted on 19/1/15
"Adaptability, especially if you are a manager that is looking to maintain some longevity."
posted on 19/1/15
I think you will find that we've had more than two great managers. I imagine you're thinking of Bill Shankley and Bob Paisley. People forget Joe Fagan.
He did a lot for the club over the years but in only two years as manager, he won;
1st Division
League Cup
European Cup
That's not too shabby
posted on 19/1/15
Depends on your definition of great, hence the article. Some form of longevity would usually be attributed to great managers. Though he had longevity at Liverpool football club, he didn't as manager, so probably why he was discounted.
posted on 19/1/15
Getting the best out of average/under achieving players is important - the improvement we have seen in Henderson under BR has massively helped the way our team plays.
SAF was a master at getting consistent performances out of some of his less talented players (e.g. Fletcher, Butt, P Nev, etc.). Of course it helps to have a Cantona, Suarez, Ronaldo, etc in your team but if the rest of your squad isn't pulling its weight you won't win the league. Maybe a cup or two as we did under Rafa but over 38 games you need all 25 members of the squad to perform.
posted on 19/1/15
but over 38 games you need all 25 members of the squad to perform.
-----
Any United fan will tell you this isn't true. We've had many passengers, or even liabilities in some cases, in title winning sides over the years.
posted on 19/1/15
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 1 minute ago
but over 38 games you need all 25 members of the squad to perform.
-----
Any United fan will tell you this isn't true. We've had many passengers, or even liabilities in some cases, in title winning sides over the years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
agreed
posted on 19/1/15
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 3 minutes ago
but over 38 games you need all 25 members of the squad to perform.
-----
Any United fan will tell you this isn't true. We've had many passengers, or even liabilities in some cases, in title winning sides over the years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed.
The last time we won the league, everyone apart from RVP, Carrick, Rafa and De Gea were average at best.
posted on 19/1/15
OK, that was an exaggeration to suggest that each and every squad member has to play his part as some very poor players have league titles to their names.
But my point about getting the most out of the lesser players in the team still stands. For instance, bloodred, that team of supposedly average-performing players still romped home to the title by over 10 points (arguably, Chelsea and City weren't great that season). However, the next season, a largely unchanged United squad only managed to get 64 points and it wasn't solely due to RVP missing half the season. In 12/13 Ferguson managed to get those average players playing a notch above the level that they would have otherwise and that is what made him a great manager, much as it pains me to say it.
posted on 19/1/15
And an individual level many of the average players weren't massively worse under Moyes. It was our best players that were noticeably worse.
It's a bit of a myth that Fergie always got the best out of average players as many have either remained the same or got better when playing away from Old Trafford - that's not to say that loads didn't play worse.
We were massively carried by our better players in his last season and there was never the same mentality in the team when going behind when Fergie left.
Good managers and teams with great players can mitigate the flaws of other players in the team and carry them. Getting the most out of the lesser players isn't as important as you make out, and I've seen it at United for years.
posted on 19/1/15
Wenger was better than all of them cretins
posted on 19/1/15
Darren, surely part of the reason why some of your best players looked worse under Moyes was due to age though? Rio, Vidic, Evra and RVP are all in their 30s and seem to have continued to decline this season. Haven't seen much of Juve this season so I may be mistaken on Evra...
Will take your word for it about SAF and average players though - you've obviously watched a lot more of United than I have over the years.
Thinking back on our last two title challenging seasons, we have definitely seen the non-star players stepping up and finding another level e.g. Riera, Aurelio in 08/09 and Hendo last year. Although this was probably due to these players being made to look better by playing alongside Gerrard, Torres and Xabi at their peaks in 08/09 and Suarez last year as you mention in your last paragraph.
posted on 20/1/15
To an extent, yes, but Rio and Evra were pretty poor, in my opinion, in Fergie's last season. RVP really carried and when he went on a dry spell Rooney also stepped up.
Our defence wasn't that good. Rafael and Vida in the second half of the season were the only defenders that really performed well for me, somehow Rio got in the team of the year.
Carrick was also quality for us and De Gea. These players were the most important in the title winning season. Rooney, despite being below par, still contributed a fair bit, and there were small contributions from the rest of the squad, but not enough to look at the team and say they'd all performed that season.
I think the biggest strength was that the passengers didn't affect the team so much that we couldn't win games. And that was a strength Fergie always had. The team could still win even if the team, or many players, weren't playing that well.
I think that is probably more along the lines of what you are thinking in regard to having lesser players in the team, rather than him getting them all to perform above their station.
posted on 20/1/15
Great article this.
Another thing to note that when the great managers were at their best they knew when to let go of and move on players. Their teams were always bigger than an individual.
Paisley moved on the likes of Toshack and Keegan amongst others who I cannot remember.
SAF moved on the likes of Keane, Ince, Hughes, Beckham when he felt the time was right. There were some controversies like Van Nistlerooy, Stam and Kanchelskis, but SAF still didn't let their departures ruin the balance of the team.
posted on 20/1/15
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 20/1/15
Forlan 👍
posted on 20/1/15
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
It's a bit of a myth that Fergie always got the best out of average players as many have either remained the same or got better when playing away from Old Trafford - that's not to say that loads didn't play worse.
************************************************************
SAF got the likes of Wes Brown, John O Shea, Kieran Richardson, Nicky Butt, Sylvestre, Tom Cleverley etc. all win numerous league titles between them.
None of these have achieved success elsewhere, unless Cleverley single handedly turns Aston Villa's season around.
posted on 20/1/15
Not so many getting better but many who have looked average for United and then continued to be average when away from Old Trafford.
I'm talking players like Cleverley, Richardson, Gibson and Welbeck, more recently and players like Greening going further back. A lot of young players and squad fillers over the years.
Fergie wasn't getting massive amounts out of players of this calibre, so there wasn't a sharp decline in their level when leaving United because they'd not shown a high level for us.
posted on 20/1/15
SAF got the likes of Wes Brown, John O Shea, Kieran Richardson, Nicky Butt, Sylvestre, Tom Cleverley etc. all win numerous league titles between them.
--------
Wes Brown, O'Shea and Butt were certainly not average players.
Obviously they aren't going to have as much success away from United. But my point was about how he supposedly got them all performing when that hasn't been the case.
Cleverley being a great example. Just because we won the title with Cleverley didn't mean he was performing, because he was still playing at a level not acceptable for United.
The fact we won the title in spite of that is an irrelevance.
I've argued this about Fergie for many years of watching the players. He still won with many average players, but he didn't get them all performing, there's a difference, and I'll always stand by that.
posted on 20/1/15
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 20/1/15
If you have a read back I addressed that point.
posted on 20/1/15
I think SAF worked out that in a team of 11 maybe you could get away with having 5 or 6 average players carried by 4 or 5 top players as long as the average players did the basics well.
A bit like Liverpool had some average players last season who were carried by Suarez, Gerrard and Sturridge.
And hence why when these average players went to other clubs (like Cleverley) they didn't look that great without the Rooneys or Ronaldos or DDG's to make their averageness look so invisible.
And hence why Liverpool have looked so poor this season with no Suarez, an injured Sturridge and a rapidly declining Gerrard.
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