With a defender who moves slower than coastal erosion
______________
Man, i'm sorry. i'm sure you've made a good point about your team.
But the 'Coastal erosion' line, is bordering on genius!
i know this isn't quite the response you may be looking for, but it's your damn fault.
The question is, is Gabriel the right man for the job? Time will tell on that and personally I'd like to see another pacy top class defender brought in and possibly a loan for Chambers.
-----------------------------------
We are being linked with Smalling for £12m this morning.
He is very quick, and at 6'4'' we have a physical monster who is used to the PL, is homegrown, and has experience in the CL and for England.
He's only 25 as well so could conceivably improve if he can jump ship this summer.
Wenger was in for him in 2010 as well but SAF sniped him with a better offer.
Maybe that could be our 4 CBs.
Koscielny, Gabriel, Smalling, Chambers.
Doesn't look to bad.
Man, i'm sorry. i'm sure you've made a good point about your team.
But the 'Coastal erosion' line, is bordering on genius!
_____________________
That line is epic! I've heard plenty of ways to describe slow, but this is by far the greatest!
The thing about pressing high up the pitch is you either need to do it all as a team, or not at all. If you try to do a half measure it's so easy to play through.
I'm not convinced we have the players to do it, even without Mert.
Is Ozil the type of playing to press and win the ball back? Giroud certainly isn't.
You look at the teams that have done it well over the past few years i.e. Liverpool last year, Bayern, Barca and Dortmund of a couple of years ago, and only really Messi was a player who was carried in a pressing system, and he probably does more than Giroud or Ozil.
comment by Ledley's knee surgeon: Football Manager legend - The Barca MSN (U20121)
posted 32 minutes ago
Man, i'm sorry. i'm sure you've made a good point about your team.
But the 'Coastal erosion' line, is bordering on genius!
_____________________
That line is epic! I've heard plenty of ways to describe slow, but this is by far the greatest!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheers lads.
comment by I Willbeck Danny boy to get 16 goals in 14-15 #VCC (U9687)
posted 52 minutes ago
The question is, is Gabriel the right man for the job? Time will tell on that and personally I'd like to see another pacy top class defender brought in and possibly a loan for Chambers.
-----------------------------------
We are being linked with Smalling for £12m this morning.
He is very quick, and at 6'4'' we have a physical monster who is used to the PL, is homegrown, and has experience in the CL and for England.
He's only 25 as well so could conceivably improve if he can jump ship this summer.
Wenger was in for him in 2010 as well but SAF sniped him with a better offer.
Maybe that could be our 4 CBs.
Koscielny, Gabriel, Smalling, Chambers.
Doesn't look to bad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would we sell you Smalling?
comment by Chris H (U15205)
posted 34 minutes ago
The thing about pressing high up the pitch is you either need to do it all as a team, or not at all. If you try to do a half measure it's so easy to play through.
I'm not convinced we have the players to do it, even without Mert.
Is Ozil the type of playing to press and win the ball back? Giroud certainly isn't.
You look at the teams that have done it well over the past few years i.e. Liverpool last year, Bayern, Barca and Dortmund of a couple of years ago, and only really Messi was a player who was carried in a pressing system, and he probably does more than Giroud or Ozil.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're spot on with the whole team needing to be in on it.
For me it's interesting you mention Giroud as one who it wouldn't suit though. I honestly think he'd thrive in that role, he has decent stamina and it would leave him less isolated - able to play more one touch rather than have to hold the ball up.
Ozil I think might struggle but he's a player who runs more than any other in our side, albeit at one pace.
Welbeck would suit it but he isn't Arsenal quality IMO.
"For me it's interesting you mention Giroud as one who it wouldn't suit though. I honestly think he'd thrive in that role, he has decent stamina and it would leave him less isolated - able to play more one touch rather than have to hold the ball up."
Really? In terms of doing the actual pressing he's just so slow, takes forever to close down defenders.
Ozil does cover a lot of distance over 90 minutes, but it's mainly when we have the ball rather than closing down. I think his stamina when he's doing a lot of sprinting is fairly poor - I remember him for Jose's counter attacking Madrid and he used to get hauled off after 65 every game because he tired.
Arguably we could carry one of these two, just don't think we can carry both.
"Welbeck would suit it but he isn't Arsenal quality IMO."
Agree.
comment by I Willbeck Danny boy to get 16 goals in 14-15 #VCC (U9687)
posted 57 minutes ago
The question is, is Gabriel the right man for the job? Time will tell on that and personally I'd like to see another pacy top class defender brought in and possibly a loan for Chambers.
-----------------------------------
We are being linked with Smalling for £12m this morning.
He is very quick, and at 6'4'' we have a physical monster who is used to the PL, is homegrown, and has experience in the CL and for England.
He's only 25 as well so could conceivably improve if he can jump ship this summer.
Wenger was in for him in 2010 as well but SAF sniped him with a better offer.
Maybe that could be our 4 CBs.
Koscielny, Gabriel, Smalling, Chambers.
Doesn't look to bad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As bloodred mentioned, why would United sell, unless his contract is about to expire? I can't see them selling someone they value as they're loaded.
He might be a decent choice if we can get him though
Chris H (U15205)
We'll just have to agree to disagree re Giroud, he's someone I'd like us to upgrade on anyway though.
Ozil I can definitely understand where you're coming from and remember well how he was always subbed on the 65 minute mark at Madrid - often after a World Class performance.
Like I said it gives us the option albeit one where we could still do with a couple of additions to the side.
The OP invented football new. Genius article.
To close someone down you need not to be Usain Bolt.
comment by ☂ (U19684)
As bloodred mentioned, why would United sell, unless his contract is about to expire? I can't see them selling someone they value as they're loaded.
He might be a decent choice if we can get him though
----------------------------------------------------------------------
His contract expires in 2016. They will be looking to offload if he is unwilling to sign a new contract in the next couple of months.
He's on £60,000 a week so we caan offer him more if he wants a move and he's from Greenwich so he might like a move back down to the capital.
It's almost certainly just a rumour but it's one I would like to be true.
"We'll just have to agree to disagree re Giroud, he's someone I'd like us to upgrade on anyway though."
Yeah me too, think he is good when we are trying to break someone down just don't think he'd suit a high pressing game. Same with Ibra at Barca, could only carry Messi.
"Ozil I can definitely understand where you're coming from and remember well how he was always subbed on the 65 minute mark at Madrid - often after a World Class performance."
Yeah, I think he did even more running for Madrid than he does for us, but not sure he has the legs to do it for 90 minutes. Again, just think we could carry either but not both.
comment by Chris H (U15205)
posted 1 hour, 12 minutes ago
Yeah me too, think he is good when we are trying to break someone down just don't think he'd suit a high pressing game. Same with Ibra at Barca, could only carry Messi.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think this is accurate. You're equating Ibra and Giroud because they're both tall and slow, but the difference with Ibra is that he won't ever try to press, whereas Giroud will. He's a willing and hard worker who has scored goals directly from pressing opposition 'keepers for example.
You don't need to be the best athlete to be good at pressing (although it helps), just be in the right places and willing to work hard and intelligently. It's more about co-ordination of the whole team and being close together in possession so that when you lose it, you initially press hard to get it back, and if you don't you can drop off and regain your shape. That's more likely to be Arsenal's problem, because it takes a heck of a lot of coaching and real commitment to that style.
"You're equating Ibra and Giroud because they're both tall and slow, but the difference with Ibra is that he won't ever try to press, whereas Giroud will. He's a willing and hard worker who has scored goals directly from pressing opposition 'keepers for example."
That is a difference, but even if you found a manager who could get Ibra working hard, he's still too slow to do it effectively. You look at teams that do it well and it's because they get to the player with the ball so quickly, not allowing them to play out from the back. Do you really believe Giroud can do that, no matter how hard he works? We've seen it a lot with Sanchez recently that Sanchez will go sprinting 35 yards to press a full back, Giroud will try to cover the ground and mark the CB but he doesn't get anywhere near.
"That's more likely to be Arsenal's problem, because it takes a heck of a lot of coaching and real commitment to that style."
Yeah absolutely. A lot of people just think good pressing is a case of everyone running round, but in reality to do it properly it requires a lot of work on the training pitch, remember reading that it took Pep about 6 months of continous working and drilling on it to get it right. Who's going to do that for us? Our training sessions look like a jolly boys outing sometimes.
The more some of you talk about Giroud is the more I wonder what player you watch or if you only watch MOTD. A high pressing game suits Giroud just fine. We had one when he arrived.
He's happy to be a pain in the butt to the goalie and CB's and has even made himself 2 or 3 goals from nothing, pressing the defenders and keeper. His lack of pace isn't an issue because he sits highest and doesn't have much ground to cover.
His workrate is not an issue as Ozil's would be but we would have to rotate him an Welbeck more due to the extra demands from the high pressing game. Also the high pressing would put midfield runners much closer to Giroud. We'd be pinching the ball and slipping it in behind all game long.
We will almost certainly revert to that high pressing game again once Gabriel has settled in. Expect to see it next season.
Didnt Giroud get a goal against Southampton my chasing down Boruc? I remember him robbingthe last defender against QPR too, lead to a chance, but not a goal.
That's just off the top of my head...
I think when he's up top on his own and is the only one chasing down he can look slower than he is, because he's up against 3 or 4 players movign the ball around. But he can press teams just fine when he has help.
If we go back to playing a highline it'll give us more freedom in attack but our defence could very easily go back to how it was during Toure/Gallas/Vermaelen days
I doubt we'll go back, Ramboue.
We changed in 2013 when Bale and Lennon I think it was ran us ragged at WHL, immediately after that game we started playing very deep and ground out wins and caught them for our 4th place trophy. It's basically where our newfound ability to win ugly over the past 2 years has come from.
Really can't see Wenger starting again just because Mert is out of the team.
The more some of you talk about Giroud is the more I wonder what player you watch or if you only watch MOTD.
___________
I do not wonder anymore
Chris
That's exactly how Wenger likes/wants to play. We really only stopped playing that way because it didn't work without Song, compounded by a slow Mertesacker.
Coquelin in the middle and a more mobile CB is a direct route back to playing that way. Doubtful we'll see it this season, maybe an odd game, because players are settling doing what we are but trust me, next season, you will see a return to the high pressing, ball stealing Arsenal we were. Only this time we'll have the defensive discipline to make it work.
Unlike Song Coquelin doesn't seem to be at all interested in scoring/making goals. Young Francis gets his kicks out of bossing his midfield. The lil General
Yeah, maybe, just hard to see it working with both Giroud & Ozil in the side.
Time will tell
Good article
It's part of the reason I've always been a little uneasy with Mertesacker playing at the back for us - even when we had a great defensive record.
I think there are merits to both side of the debate on the Giroud front.
On the one hand, he is very hard-working and he does seem to be very good at dispossessing the opposition when he gets close enough.
However, football is a game of inches, and being half a yard quicker can really make the difference between dispossessing the defender, and allowing them to make the pass/clearance.
I think a pressing system can work with Giroud as the focal point - Lambert worked well in Pochettino's system despite a lack of pace - but someone like Welbeck is always going to be able to put defenders under pressure more quickly.
Unless we're playing against really good ball-playing CBs, I suspect Giroud would be fine if we pushed high enough.
However, I do agree on the Ozil front. It's not just his lack of aggression, but also the system we play to accommodate him.
I've never been a fan of him on the wings, and IMO, his best position is in the hole in a 4231. But playing him in this role means either:
1) Ramsey can't press as high, or;
2) When Ramsey presses high, there'll be a lot of space left in the midfield area, as Ozil doesn't tend to drop in like Cazorla does.
I think the best we've looked from both a pressing and a defensive standpoint has been when we've played the 433/4141, as Ramsey has more freedom to push forward and press high-up the pitch.
Obviously, there are other pros and cons to this tactic, but regardless of exactly what system we play, I think there will always be question marks about where Ozil fits in to a pressing system.
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posted on 25/3/15
With a defender who moves slower than coastal erosion
______________
posted on 25/3/15
Man, i'm sorry. i'm sure you've made a good point about your team.
But the 'Coastal erosion' line, is bordering on genius!
i know this isn't quite the response you may be looking for, but it's your damn fault.
posted on 25/3/15
The question is, is Gabriel the right man for the job? Time will tell on that and personally I'd like to see another pacy top class defender brought in and possibly a loan for Chambers.
-----------------------------------
We are being linked with Smalling for £12m this morning.
He is very quick, and at 6'4'' we have a physical monster who is used to the PL, is homegrown, and has experience in the CL and for England.
He's only 25 as well so could conceivably improve if he can jump ship this summer.
Wenger was in for him in 2010 as well but SAF sniped him with a better offer.
Maybe that could be our 4 CBs.
Koscielny, Gabriel, Smalling, Chambers.
Doesn't look to bad.
posted on 25/3/15
Man, i'm sorry. i'm sure you've made a good point about your team.
But the 'Coastal erosion' line, is bordering on genius!
_____________________
That line is epic! I've heard plenty of ways to describe slow, but this is by far the greatest!
posted on 25/3/15
The thing about pressing high up the pitch is you either need to do it all as a team, or not at all. If you try to do a half measure it's so easy to play through.
I'm not convinced we have the players to do it, even without Mert.
Is Ozil the type of playing to press and win the ball back? Giroud certainly isn't.
You look at the teams that have done it well over the past few years i.e. Liverpool last year, Bayern, Barca and Dortmund of a couple of years ago, and only really Messi was a player who was carried in a pressing system, and he probably does more than Giroud or Ozil.
posted on 25/3/15
comment by Ledley's knee surgeon: Football Manager legend - The Barca MSN (U20121)
posted 32 minutes ago
Man, i'm sorry. i'm sure you've made a good point about your team.
But the 'Coastal erosion' line, is bordering on genius!
_____________________
That line is epic! I've heard plenty of ways to describe slow, but this is by far the greatest!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheers lads.
posted on 25/3/15
comment by I Willbeck Danny boy to get 16 goals in 14-15 #VCC (U9687)
posted 52 minutes ago
The question is, is Gabriel the right man for the job? Time will tell on that and personally I'd like to see another pacy top class defender brought in and possibly a loan for Chambers.
-----------------------------------
We are being linked with Smalling for £12m this morning.
He is very quick, and at 6'4'' we have a physical monster who is used to the PL, is homegrown, and has experience in the CL and for England.
He's only 25 as well so could conceivably improve if he can jump ship this summer.
Wenger was in for him in 2010 as well but SAF sniped him with a better offer.
Maybe that could be our 4 CBs.
Koscielny, Gabriel, Smalling, Chambers.
Doesn't look to bad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would we sell you Smalling?
posted on 25/3/15
comment by Chris H (U15205)
posted 34 minutes ago
The thing about pressing high up the pitch is you either need to do it all as a team, or not at all. If you try to do a half measure it's so easy to play through.
I'm not convinced we have the players to do it, even without Mert.
Is Ozil the type of playing to press and win the ball back? Giroud certainly isn't.
You look at the teams that have done it well over the past few years i.e. Liverpool last year, Bayern, Barca and Dortmund of a couple of years ago, and only really Messi was a player who was carried in a pressing system, and he probably does more than Giroud or Ozil.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're spot on with the whole team needing to be in on it.
For me it's interesting you mention Giroud as one who it wouldn't suit though. I honestly think he'd thrive in that role, he has decent stamina and it would leave him less isolated - able to play more one touch rather than have to hold the ball up.
Ozil I think might struggle but he's a player who runs more than any other in our side, albeit at one pace.
Welbeck would suit it but he isn't Arsenal quality IMO.
posted on 25/3/15
"For me it's interesting you mention Giroud as one who it wouldn't suit though. I honestly think he'd thrive in that role, he has decent stamina and it would leave him less isolated - able to play more one touch rather than have to hold the ball up."
Really? In terms of doing the actual pressing he's just so slow, takes forever to close down defenders.
Ozil does cover a lot of distance over 90 minutes, but it's mainly when we have the ball rather than closing down. I think his stamina when he's doing a lot of sprinting is fairly poor - I remember him for Jose's counter attacking Madrid and he used to get hauled off after 65 every game because he tired.
Arguably we could carry one of these two, just don't think we can carry both.
"Welbeck would suit it but he isn't Arsenal quality IMO."
Agree.
posted on 25/3/15
comment by I Willbeck Danny boy to get 16 goals in 14-15 #VCC (U9687)
posted 57 minutes ago
The question is, is Gabriel the right man for the job? Time will tell on that and personally I'd like to see another pacy top class defender brought in and possibly a loan for Chambers.
-----------------------------------
We are being linked with Smalling for £12m this morning.
He is very quick, and at 6'4'' we have a physical monster who is used to the PL, is homegrown, and has experience in the CL and for England.
He's only 25 as well so could conceivably improve if he can jump ship this summer.
Wenger was in for him in 2010 as well but SAF sniped him with a better offer.
Maybe that could be our 4 CBs.
Koscielny, Gabriel, Smalling, Chambers.
Doesn't look to bad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As bloodred mentioned, why would United sell, unless his contract is about to expire? I can't see them selling someone they value as they're loaded.
He might be a decent choice if we can get him though
posted on 25/3/15
Chris H (U15205)
We'll just have to agree to disagree re Giroud, he's someone I'd like us to upgrade on anyway though.
Ozil I can definitely understand where you're coming from and remember well how he was always subbed on the 65 minute mark at Madrid - often after a World Class performance.
Like I said it gives us the option albeit one where we could still do with a couple of additions to the side.
posted on 25/3/15
The OP invented football new. Genius article.
posted on 25/3/15
To close someone down you need not to be Usain Bolt.
posted on 25/3/15
comment by ☂ (U19684)
As bloodred mentioned, why would United sell, unless his contract is about to expire? I can't see them selling someone they value as they're loaded.
He might be a decent choice if we can get him though
----------------------------------------------------------------------
His contract expires in 2016. They will be looking to offload if he is unwilling to sign a new contract in the next couple of months.
He's on £60,000 a week so we caan offer him more if he wants a move and he's from Greenwich so he might like a move back down to the capital.
It's almost certainly just a rumour but it's one I would like to be true.
posted on 25/3/15
"We'll just have to agree to disagree re Giroud, he's someone I'd like us to upgrade on anyway though."
Yeah me too, think he is good when we are trying to break someone down just don't think he'd suit a high pressing game. Same with Ibra at Barca, could only carry Messi.
"Ozil I can definitely understand where you're coming from and remember well how he was always subbed on the 65 minute mark at Madrid - often after a World Class performance."
Yeah, I think he did even more running for Madrid than he does for us, but not sure he has the legs to do it for 90 minutes. Again, just think we could carry either but not both.
posted on 25/3/15
comment by Chris H (U15205)
posted 1 hour, 12 minutes ago
Yeah me too, think he is good when we are trying to break someone down just don't think he'd suit a high pressing game. Same with Ibra at Barca, could only carry Messi.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think this is accurate. You're equating Ibra and Giroud because they're both tall and slow, but the difference with Ibra is that he won't ever try to press, whereas Giroud will. He's a willing and hard worker who has scored goals directly from pressing opposition 'keepers for example.
You don't need to be the best athlete to be good at pressing (although it helps), just be in the right places and willing to work hard and intelligently. It's more about co-ordination of the whole team and being close together in possession so that when you lose it, you initially press hard to get it back, and if you don't you can drop off and regain your shape. That's more likely to be Arsenal's problem, because it takes a heck of a lot of coaching and real commitment to that style.
posted on 25/3/15
"You're equating Ibra and Giroud because they're both tall and slow, but the difference with Ibra is that he won't ever try to press, whereas Giroud will. He's a willing and hard worker who has scored goals directly from pressing opposition 'keepers for example."
That is a difference, but even if you found a manager who could get Ibra working hard, he's still too slow to do it effectively. You look at teams that do it well and it's because they get to the player with the ball so quickly, not allowing them to play out from the back. Do you really believe Giroud can do that, no matter how hard he works? We've seen it a lot with Sanchez recently that Sanchez will go sprinting 35 yards to press a full back, Giroud will try to cover the ground and mark the CB but he doesn't get anywhere near.
"That's more likely to be Arsenal's problem, because it takes a heck of a lot of coaching and real commitment to that style."
Yeah absolutely. A lot of people just think good pressing is a case of everyone running round, but in reality to do it properly it requires a lot of work on the training pitch, remember reading that it took Pep about 6 months of continous working and drilling on it to get it right. Who's going to do that for us? Our training sessions look like a jolly boys outing sometimes.
posted on 25/3/15
The more some of you talk about Giroud is the more I wonder what player you watch or if you only watch MOTD. A high pressing game suits Giroud just fine. We had one when he arrived.
He's happy to be a pain in the butt to the goalie and CB's and has even made himself 2 or 3 goals from nothing, pressing the defenders and keeper. His lack of pace isn't an issue because he sits highest and doesn't have much ground to cover.
His workrate is not an issue as Ozil's would be but we would have to rotate him an Welbeck more due to the extra demands from the high pressing game. Also the high pressing would put midfield runners much closer to Giroud. We'd be pinching the ball and slipping it in behind all game long.
We will almost certainly revert to that high pressing game again once Gabriel has settled in. Expect to see it next season.
posted on 25/3/15
Didnt Giroud get a goal against Southampton my chasing down Boruc? I remember him robbingthe last defender against QPR too, lead to a chance, but not a goal.
That's just off the top of my head...
I think when he's up top on his own and is the only one chasing down he can look slower than he is, because he's up against 3 or 4 players movign the ball around. But he can press teams just fine when he has help.
posted on 25/3/15
If we go back to playing a highline it'll give us more freedom in attack but our defence could very easily go back to how it was during Toure/Gallas/Vermaelen days
posted on 25/3/15
I doubt we'll go back, Ramboue.
We changed in 2013 when Bale and Lennon I think it was ran us ragged at WHL, immediately after that game we started playing very deep and ground out wins and caught them for our 4th place trophy. It's basically where our newfound ability to win ugly over the past 2 years has come from.
Really can't see Wenger starting again just because Mert is out of the team.
posted on 25/3/15
The more some of you talk about Giroud is the more I wonder what player you watch or if you only watch MOTD.
___________
I do not wonder anymore
posted on 25/3/15
Chris
That's exactly how Wenger likes/wants to play. We really only stopped playing that way because it didn't work without Song, compounded by a slow Mertesacker.
Coquelin in the middle and a more mobile CB is a direct route back to playing that way. Doubtful we'll see it this season, maybe an odd game, because players are settling doing what we are but trust me, next season, you will see a return to the high pressing, ball stealing Arsenal we were. Only this time we'll have the defensive discipline to make it work.
Unlike Song Coquelin doesn't seem to be at all interested in scoring/making goals. Young Francis gets his kicks out of bossing his midfield. The lil General
posted on 25/3/15
Yeah, maybe, just hard to see it working with both Giroud & Ozil in the side.
Time will tell
posted on 25/3/15
Good article
It's part of the reason I've always been a little uneasy with Mertesacker playing at the back for us - even when we had a great defensive record.
I think there are merits to both side of the debate on the Giroud front.
On the one hand, he is very hard-working and he does seem to be very good at dispossessing the opposition when he gets close enough.
However, football is a game of inches, and being half a yard quicker can really make the difference between dispossessing the defender, and allowing them to make the pass/clearance.
I think a pressing system can work with Giroud as the focal point - Lambert worked well in Pochettino's system despite a lack of pace - but someone like Welbeck is always going to be able to put defenders under pressure more quickly.
Unless we're playing against really good ball-playing CBs, I suspect Giroud would be fine if we pushed high enough.
However, I do agree on the Ozil front. It's not just his lack of aggression, but also the system we play to accommodate him.
I've never been a fan of him on the wings, and IMO, his best position is in the hole in a 4231. But playing him in this role means either:
1) Ramsey can't press as high, or;
2) When Ramsey presses high, there'll be a lot of space left in the midfield area, as Ozil doesn't tend to drop in like Cazorla does.
I think the best we've looked from both a pressing and a defensive standpoint has been when we've played the 433/4141, as Ramsey has more freedom to push forward and press high-up the pitch.
Obviously, there are other pros and cons to this tactic, but regardless of exactly what system we play, I think there will always be question marks about where Ozil fits in to a pressing system.
Page 1 of 1