comment by DaStuDogg (U9291)
posted 1 hour, 36 minutes ago
"We play CMs on the flanks for balance sake. Ozil at 10 leaves our midfield too light defensively. Playing Alexis, Ozil, Welbeck/Theo would leave only Coq able to do any real defending (1/5) in midfield."
Ozil's not the best defensively, but I disagree we'd be unbalanced by having widemen in the wide positions.
Mourinho's Madrid team looked perfectly balanced with Ronaldo, Benzema, Ozil, and Di Maria as their front 4, and Germany looked perfectly balanced with Ozil, Schurrle, Muller, and Klose as their front 4 in the World Cup final.
Players like Chamberlain, Sanchez, and Welbeck do a huge amount of defensive work from the wide positions, and there's also a risk that playing without the threat of any counter-attacking pace can actually invite the opposition onto us - like what happened when Tottenham pummeled us this season, or when Chelsea decimated us last year.
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Difference being Real played a very conventional 4-3-3 and German played a false 9.
We play a rigid fluent 4-5-1 and Welbeck/Theo switch off completely when we are without the ball (Dunno where the 'Welbeck works hard defensively' myth came from).
Compare that to Muller's workrate, or Di Maria's at real (when he was playing shopping window stuff for his future) and you can see how box-to-box ramsey helps there.
Swapping out Mert for gabriel full-time and playing a high-line would be another option. But we all know how that has burned us in the past.
Wanyama would be a much better option.
"Difference being Real played a very conventional 4-3-3 and German played a false 9.
We play a rigid fluent 4-5-1 and Welbeck/Theo switch off completely when we are without the ball (Dunno where the 'Welbeck works hard defensively' myth came from).
Compare that to Muller's workrate, or Di Maria's at real (when he was playing shopping window stuff for his future) and you can see how box-to-box ramsey helps there.
Swapping out Mert for gabriel full-time and playing a high-line would be another option. But we all know how that has burned us in the past."
I'd say Mourinho's Madrid played much more of a 4231 with their attacking quartet:
------------Benzema
Ronaldo------Ozil-----Di Maria
Di Maria later moved to a central position under Ancelotti, but under Mourinho he almost always an attacking wideman.
And I wouldn't really say Klose was much of a false-9. I'm a huge fan of Klose, but at 36, his all-round contribution was dwindling and he seemed to be playing much more as a poacher. Either way, I don't really see why a false 9 would make a difference - surely the overall defensive contribution is most pertinent to this discussion.
I agree about Walcott's lack of defensive contribution, but Welbeck is actually one of the best defensive attackers (if that makes sense!) in the league from a statistical standpoint.
As I posted a couple of months ago:
'Speaking of his work-rate, I recently found out he has the highest number of interceptions per 90 minutes of any centre-forward in the Premiership and the third highest number of tackles. He's also got the highest 'defensive score' on Squawka of any central striker (to have played more than 5 games, that is) per 90 minutes. Maybe these aren't considered the most important stats for a forward, but in the modern game, it's becoming increasingly important to defend from the front, and in that respect, few are better than Welbeck.'
Now I don't know if these stats are still 100% accurate (I posted the above quote in April), but it does show just how much he does for the team when we don't have possession.
I do think going back to a high-line would be good though, providing we can organise our pressing.
(Dunno where the 'Welbeck works hard defensively' myth came from).
Anyone who's actually bothered to watch him play before commenting
Ok, I think a lot of the above is based on a false premise. Wide attackers in a 4-3-3 are not actually asked to work back. Its just not possible. Think about their positioning. Its 10 yards higher up the pitch than a winger in a 4-4-2 where they winger is expected to cover the full back. In fact suggesting Di Maria or C. Ronaldo as working back is just laughable. Thats why Mourinho was forced out of Madrid. If you ask those two to work back it is not possible for either of wide attackers to beat the last man onto goal. Its actually sad that Theo was fast enough to cover against Spurs that caused his injury because Theo was not balanced when he made the tackle that caused the rupture in his knee. Any other attacker would not have made it back.
In a 4-3-3 it is important for the holding players to cover full backs and thats why you need a very astute defender as well a very fit one to do that role properly in defensive midfield. You cannot expect retiring players like Arteta or Flamini to cover the pitch side to side.
One reason Monreal (wrongly in my opinion) was selected ahead of Gibbs was so that the full back on the left side stayed back because Alexis was expected to be the aux striker. It was impossible for him to cover Monreal, so Monreal never went forward. Gibbs should have started with Bellerin, but with the instruction that one of them always stayed back allowing the holding player to cover the side where full back went forward. Thats how you play it properly. Not trying to find strikers who can defend because I promise you even Bolt cannot cover back to defend a full back area every opposition attack if he is playing level with the striker in a 4-3-3!
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 30 minutes ago
Ok, I think a lot of the above is based on a false premise. Wide attackers in a 4-3-3 are not actually asked to work back. Its just not possible. Think about their positioning. Its 10 yards higher up the pitch than a winger in a 4-4-2 where they winger is expected to cover the full back. In fact suggesting Di Maria or C. Ronaldo as working back is just laughable. Thats why Mourinho was forced out of Madrid. If you ask those two to work back it is not possible for either of wide attackers to beat the last man onto goal. Its actually sad that Theo was fast enough to cover against Spurs that caused his injury because Theo was not balanced when he made the tackle that caused the rupture in his knee. Any other attacker would not have made it back.
In a 4-3-3 it is important for the holding players to cover full backs and thats why you need a very astute defender as well a very fit one to do that role properly in defensive midfield. You cannot expect retiring players like Arteta or Flamini to cover the pitch side to side.
One reason Monreal (wrongly in my opinion) was selected ahead of Gibbs was so that the full back on the left side stayed back because Alexis was expected to be the aux striker. It was impossible for him to cover Monreal, so Monreal never went forward. Gibbs should have started with Bellerin, but with the instruction that one of them always stayed back allowing the holding player to cover the side where full back went forward. Thats how you play it properly. Not trying to find strikers who can defend because I promise you even Bolt cannot cover back to defend a full back area every opposition attack if he is playing level with the striker in a 4-3-3!
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I'm not sure if this is aimed at me, but just to clarify (in case it is) I agree with you.
I'm not critical of Walcott's lack of tracking-back from the wide positions - it's necessary for the role he's expected to play.
My response was to a previous comment that suggested we might be defensively vulnerable if we don't have one of the wide positions filled by a naturally central player - which I personally disagree with.
That being said, I can appreciate why there might be a bit of a reluctance to play Ozil (in the free role) and Walcott (down the wing) in the bigger games though, simply because Ozil's unlikely to drop back and help cover/protect the full-back if Walcott stays high up the pitch.
Well explained Jenius. So tired of this "Theo doesn't defend" rubbish
DaStuDogg
Well pointed out again. It's Ozil who is the weak link in defensive terms and creates the problem with playing Walcott.
That being said, I can appreciate why there might be a bit of a reluctance to play Ozil (in the free role) and Walcott (down the wing) in the bigger games though, simply because Ozil's unlikely to drop back and help cover/protect the full-back if Walcott stays high up the pitch.
--------------------------------
Stu against the bigger teams, Ozil would only be expected to drop back to near the center circle (like Bergkamp used to position himself). The person who would need to be told to hold his runs would the midfielder playing alongside Coq, whether that would be Ramsey or Wilshere. To take from American football parlance, reverting to a "cover 2" instead of a "cover 1". So 2 midfield players are shielding the back 4 instead on 1 and then you give freedom for you wingers to be the wide men and tuck in both wide attackers behind the striker to play counter attack. You are building of Ozil (again like we did with Dennis) rather than the striker ahead of him (Henry used to be on the wing). The problem at the moment is Giroud. He cannot rotate with Alexis (left attacker) or Theo (right attacker), because he is not good in the wide positions, so literally we are getting a bottleneck in the middle of the pitch, making us very easy to defend against. Ozil does not have the pace (although he tries) to go wide in order to make the pitch larger when that happens.
This is why I stated even before we bought Ozil, that Giroud is not suited to the Wenger system. Essentially Barca tried to do that with a much more tactilely and technically astute forward (ibrahimovic) than Giroud and still didn't work. Tiki taka really needs sharp movements in every position on the pitch but for striker its even more essential because you have to be able to switch in and out between counter attacking and possession based football.
*freedom for your wingers should actually read, freedom to your full backs to be your wide men.
And before anyone points out RVP wasn't a speed burner, keep in mind RVP was winger and so very sharp with his movements. He was converted to center forward because Wenger needs that rotation for his system to work. The center forward has to be comfortable on the wing, just like the wide attackers have to comfortable in the central area (as strikers) for the system to work!
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 4 hours, 4 minutes ago
That being said, I can appreciate why there might be a bit of a reluctance to play Ozil (in the free role) and Walcott (down the wing) in the bigger games though, simply because Ozil's unlikely to drop back and help cover/protect the full-back if Walcott stays high up the pitch.
--------------------------------
Stu against the bigger teams, Ozil would only be expected to drop back to near the center circle (like Bergkamp used to position himself). The person who would need to be told to hold his runs would the midfielder playing alongside Coq, whether that would be Ramsey or Wilshere. To take from American football parlance, reverting to a "cover 2" instead of a "cover 1". So 2 midfield players are shielding the back 4 instead on 1 and then you give freedom for you wingers to be the wide men and tuck in both wide attackers behind the striker to play counter attack. You are building of Ozil (again like we did with Dennis) rather than the striker ahead of him (Henry used to be on the wing). The problem at the moment is Giroud. He cannot rotate with Alexis (left attacker) or Theo (right attacker), because he is not good in the wide positions, so literally we are getting a bottleneck in the middle of the pitch, making us very easy to defend against. Ozil does not have the pace (although he tries) to go wide in order to make the pitch larger when that happens.
This is why I stated even before we bought Ozil, that Giroud is not suited to the Wenger system. Essentially Barca tried to do that with a much more tactilely and technically astute forward (ibrahimovic) than Giroud and still didn't work. Tiki taka really needs sharp movements in every position on the pitch but for striker its even more essential because you have to be able to switch in and out between counter attacking and possession based football.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with pretty much all of that
It's one of the reasons I feel Welbeck's contribution has been a little underrated as a striker: he does a huge amount in terms of running the channels and stretching the opposition, which I feel benefited Sanchez greatly - allowing the Chilean to drift in between the lines without completely congesting our play.
However, his goal return is pretty underwhelming, which is why the idea of converting Walcott to a central striking role is so appealing - he has the ability to stretch teams and create space for our more creative players, as well as the movement and finishing necessary to be a 20+ goal a season striker.
My only concern is his inability to play with his back-to-goal when we're under the cosh, which is arguably why he struggled so much when we had our backs against the wall again Bayern a couple of years ago.
Some good points have been made here, especially by Jenius regarding the roles of our wide players but I fail to see the relevance considering we don't play a 4-3-3 system.
Since we play the 4-2-3-1 balance is very important on the flanks hence why Arsene prefers Ox & Welbz on the right as they offer more defensively than Theo.
As appealing as it sounds going forward, Ozil & Theo in the same 3 behind the CF is very unlikely to happen for a long period because they both offer little off the ball.
Although they play the roles differently Alexis has effectively replaced Theo as our wide forward apart from maybe the odd occasion I can't see both playing on each flank for a long period of time. Alexis' workrate is just a bonus it's not his assigned duty it's mainly down to the right side to offer more defensively.
Also ball retention is probably considered more than anything by Arsene and with Theo who doesn't contribute to build up play and Alexis who's not great at retaining possession our football would probably suffer (though I'd prefer it because it'd give Ozil more time on the ball and options to use) it's something Wenger won't want.
Welbeck although clumsy, he contributes to build up a fair amount whilst Arsene sees Ox as a central based player don't forget, when these 2 aren't available he uses Ramsey/Jack as alternatives.
It's a bit annoying because we haven't play good football consistently for a while anyway, I hope we start with Theo out wide on Saturday I think we should encourage an end-to-end game as we have the more clinical players but it'd come at the expense of either Ramsey or Cazorla and I don't see that happening. Maybe upfront but I doubt Giroud would be dropped tbh
My only concern is his inability to play with his back-to-goal when we're under the cosh, which is arguably why he struggled so much when we had our backs against the wall again Bayern a couple of years ago.
----------------------------
If you think back to our discussions on 606 when we used to win the big trophies . It was the same in those days!
Wenger does not get hung up on systems. He uses a blend of players and starting positions which then become much more fluid during the game. Fans think that Barca invented tiki taka. They did not. It was started by the Dutch in the 70s, Cryuff then tried to implement it in the 80s and 90s and Wenger was disciple of that, followed by Pep doing his coaching badges at Arsenal.
Essentially even in the 4-4-2 we used to play we still relied on Pires and Freddie/Wiltord, tucking in, Henry attacking wide to in and a deeper striker linking play in the middle, whether that was Dennis or Kanu. We never hoofed the ball once. In fact it was only when Arsene started experimenting with Cesc, that brought Henry into the middle and he started playing a little more long ball. But we never challenged for a major trophy again!
So look at our attackers today. Walcott/Alexis/Giroud/Welbeck. Do you see Barca hoofing the ball to no height, Messi, Suarez or Neymar? The key to creating space is movement off the ball, and not static big players. This is why I pointed to RVP who started his career as a winger. 90% of the long ball to him, ended with RVP on the ground. It really does not work. We need to go back to a more fluid system. I have been waiting for Alexis-Theo-Welbeck. But Wenger has been nursing Theo back to health very slowly. In that combination Welbeck is the stronger one when we need to release the ball quickly, but the players can move along the line.
I would love, Alexis-Benzema-Theo, for a forward line based on movement and goal threat. But that seems a dream tbh.
My take is that even Lacazette would be sufficient for that type of system to work J99.
Not entirely keen about the Martinez rumours, his general play has been meh whenever I've seen him play in the CL.
Not sure abt Lacazette March, haven't seen him enough to judge. I agree though, anyone mobile and strong on the ball. No one can suggest that Augero is tall but he leads the Man City line by himself very successfully because of superb movement off the ball and then he is very strong on the ball as well.
Lol buy the top scoring CM in England and turn him into a DM. That would be classic Arsene. Better not facking happen, he's not going to win us anything.
jenius, I agree, and for the vast majority of games, I think it would work fine.
I was referring to the - admittedly very rare - sort of games where the opposition are really controlling the game/possession, force us deep, and create a real separation between our midfield and our striker.
Like when Bayern dominated us and Walcott was unable to have any impact against Van Buyten and Dante because we were essentially just clearing the ball up to him. Similarly, Van Persie had these problems when we played Barcelona - he got completely isolated (because our midfielders were getting pressed back and were mainly defending in and around our box) and didn't really have the physical presence to hold-up play whilst our midfielders got up in support.
I think it's these sort of situations where we'd probably be better switching to someone like Welbeck in the central role - which I think you may have been alluding to with your fluid 3 man attack of Welbeck, Walcott, and Sanchez - i.e. someone with both the physical presence to hold-up play, and the pace necessary to run the channels and stretch the opposition.
And perhaps once we've got more of a foothold in the game, Walcott can start to drift into more central positions.
Inventor, good point as I mentioned before, I can appreciate the concerns about having Ozil and Walcott playing together in a 4231, unless, as jenius suggests, we get someone like Ramsey to play a much more disciplined role alongside Coquelin.
This is actually another reason why I'm starting to come round to Walcott in the central role: his lack of defensive work down the flanks is really symptomatic of his role as a wing-forward (in that he has to stay relatively high up the pitch so that he can run-in-behind, meaning that he can't always afford to track back and protect his full-back); but if he plays the central striker role, he can focus on defending from the front and won't have the onus of worrying about what's going on behind him.
Belated, but also meant to add there's the fact that Giroud does a lot in terms of defending set-pieces, so I think his aerial presence may need to be replaced if we do start to play Walcott instead - perhaps with the return of Debuchy.
I was referring to the - admittedly very rare - sort of games where the opposition are really controlling the game/possession, force us deep, and create a real separation between our midfield and our striker.
---------------------------------
Although I suggested that depends on the blend of the 3 up front. I mentioned RVP drifting to the wing when Walcott moved to the middle a few years ago. Like Henry used to with Pires/Freddie in the 2000s. Welbeck/Theo/Alexis rotating up front would also work imo.
However keep in mind this point. Its actually very easy to defeat the high press game. And that was a favourite tactic O'Leary used to employ for Leeds Utd against us (pressing us high). Henry used to score for fun against them! Anyone fast on the last man, and simple ball over the top from either of your centre backs or holding midfield player completely destroys the high press. Frankly we have only become susceptible to the high press game since Walcott has been injured and of course Giroud's lack of pace does not help.
Coq's lack of passing is also hindrance to that and why I have suggested before a player who could pass like Arteta but defend like Coq is needed with some urgency!
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Ki Sung-Yeung
Page 2 of 2
posted on 28/5/15
comment by DaStuDogg (U9291)
posted 1 hour, 36 minutes ago
"We play CMs on the flanks for balance sake. Ozil at 10 leaves our midfield too light defensively. Playing Alexis, Ozil, Welbeck/Theo would leave only Coq able to do any real defending (1/5) in midfield."
Ozil's not the best defensively, but I disagree we'd be unbalanced by having widemen in the wide positions.
Mourinho's Madrid team looked perfectly balanced with Ronaldo, Benzema, Ozil, and Di Maria as their front 4, and Germany looked perfectly balanced with Ozil, Schurrle, Muller, and Klose as their front 4 in the World Cup final.
Players like Chamberlain, Sanchez, and Welbeck do a huge amount of defensive work from the wide positions, and there's also a risk that playing without the threat of any counter-attacking pace can actually invite the opposition onto us - like what happened when Tottenham pummeled us this season, or when Chelsea decimated us last year.
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Difference being Real played a very conventional 4-3-3 and German played a false 9.
We play a rigid fluent 4-5-1 and Welbeck/Theo switch off completely when we are without the ball (Dunno where the 'Welbeck works hard defensively' myth came from).
Compare that to Muller's workrate, or Di Maria's at real (when he was playing shopping window stuff for his future) and you can see how box-to-box ramsey helps there.
Swapping out Mert for gabriel full-time and playing a high-line would be another option. But we all know how that has burned us in the past.
posted on 28/5/15
Wanyama would be a much better option.
posted on 28/5/15
"Difference being Real played a very conventional 4-3-3 and German played a false 9.
We play a rigid fluent 4-5-1 and Welbeck/Theo switch off completely when we are without the ball (Dunno where the 'Welbeck works hard defensively' myth came from).
Compare that to Muller's workrate, or Di Maria's at real (when he was playing shopping window stuff for his future) and you can see how box-to-box ramsey helps there.
Swapping out Mert for gabriel full-time and playing a high-line would be another option. But we all know how that has burned us in the past."
I'd say Mourinho's Madrid played much more of a 4231 with their attacking quartet:
------------Benzema
Ronaldo------Ozil-----Di Maria
Di Maria later moved to a central position under Ancelotti, but under Mourinho he almost always an attacking wideman.
And I wouldn't really say Klose was much of a false-9. I'm a huge fan of Klose, but at 36, his all-round contribution was dwindling and he seemed to be playing much more as a poacher. Either way, I don't really see why a false 9 would make a difference - surely the overall defensive contribution is most pertinent to this discussion.
I agree about Walcott's lack of defensive contribution, but Welbeck is actually one of the best defensive attackers (if that makes sense!) in the league from a statistical standpoint.
As I posted a couple of months ago:
'Speaking of his work-rate, I recently found out he has the highest number of interceptions per 90 minutes of any centre-forward in the Premiership and the third highest number of tackles. He's also got the highest 'defensive score' on Squawka of any central striker (to have played more than 5 games, that is) per 90 minutes. Maybe these aren't considered the most important stats for a forward, but in the modern game, it's becoming increasingly important to defend from the front, and in that respect, few are better than Welbeck.'
Now I don't know if these stats are still 100% accurate (I posted the above quote in April), but it does show just how much he does for the team when we don't have possession.
I do think going back to a high-line would be good though, providing we can organise our pressing.
posted on 28/5/15
(Dunno where the 'Welbeck works hard defensively' myth came from).
Anyone who's actually bothered to watch him play before commenting
posted on 28/5/15
Ok, I think a lot of the above is based on a false premise. Wide attackers in a 4-3-3 are not actually asked to work back. Its just not possible. Think about their positioning. Its 10 yards higher up the pitch than a winger in a 4-4-2 where they winger is expected to cover the full back. In fact suggesting Di Maria or C. Ronaldo as working back is just laughable. Thats why Mourinho was forced out of Madrid. If you ask those two to work back it is not possible for either of wide attackers to beat the last man onto goal. Its actually sad that Theo was fast enough to cover against Spurs that caused his injury because Theo was not balanced when he made the tackle that caused the rupture in his knee. Any other attacker would not have made it back.
In a 4-3-3 it is important for the holding players to cover full backs and thats why you need a very astute defender as well a very fit one to do that role properly in defensive midfield. You cannot expect retiring players like Arteta or Flamini to cover the pitch side to side.
One reason Monreal (wrongly in my opinion) was selected ahead of Gibbs was so that the full back on the left side stayed back because Alexis was expected to be the aux striker. It was impossible for him to cover Monreal, so Monreal never went forward. Gibbs should have started with Bellerin, but with the instruction that one of them always stayed back allowing the holding player to cover the side where full back went forward. Thats how you play it properly. Not trying to find strikers who can defend because I promise you even Bolt cannot cover back to defend a full back area every opposition attack if he is playing level with the striker in a 4-3-3!
posted on 28/5/15
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 30 minutes ago
Ok, I think a lot of the above is based on a false premise. Wide attackers in a 4-3-3 are not actually asked to work back. Its just not possible. Think about their positioning. Its 10 yards higher up the pitch than a winger in a 4-4-2 where they winger is expected to cover the full back. In fact suggesting Di Maria or C. Ronaldo as working back is just laughable. Thats why Mourinho was forced out of Madrid. If you ask those two to work back it is not possible for either of wide attackers to beat the last man onto goal. Its actually sad that Theo was fast enough to cover against Spurs that caused his injury because Theo was not balanced when he made the tackle that caused the rupture in his knee. Any other attacker would not have made it back.
In a 4-3-3 it is important for the holding players to cover full backs and thats why you need a very astute defender as well a very fit one to do that role properly in defensive midfield. You cannot expect retiring players like Arteta or Flamini to cover the pitch side to side.
One reason Monreal (wrongly in my opinion) was selected ahead of Gibbs was so that the full back on the left side stayed back because Alexis was expected to be the aux striker. It was impossible for him to cover Monreal, so Monreal never went forward. Gibbs should have started with Bellerin, but with the instruction that one of them always stayed back allowing the holding player to cover the side where full back went forward. Thats how you play it properly. Not trying to find strikers who can defend because I promise you even Bolt cannot cover back to defend a full back area every opposition attack if he is playing level with the striker in a 4-3-3!
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I'm not sure if this is aimed at me, but just to clarify (in case it is) I agree with you.
I'm not critical of Walcott's lack of tracking-back from the wide positions - it's necessary for the role he's expected to play.
My response was to a previous comment that suggested we might be defensively vulnerable if we don't have one of the wide positions filled by a naturally central player - which I personally disagree with.
That being said, I can appreciate why there might be a bit of a reluctance to play Ozil (in the free role) and Walcott (down the wing) in the bigger games though, simply because Ozil's unlikely to drop back and help cover/protect the full-back if Walcott stays high up the pitch.
posted on 28/5/15
Well explained Jenius. So tired of this "Theo doesn't defend" rubbish
posted on 28/5/15
DaStuDogg
Well pointed out again. It's Ozil who is the weak link in defensive terms and creates the problem with playing Walcott.
posted on 28/5/15
That being said, I can appreciate why there might be a bit of a reluctance to play Ozil (in the free role) and Walcott (down the wing) in the bigger games though, simply because Ozil's unlikely to drop back and help cover/protect the full-back if Walcott stays high up the pitch.
--------------------------------
Stu against the bigger teams, Ozil would only be expected to drop back to near the center circle (like Bergkamp used to position himself). The person who would need to be told to hold his runs would the midfielder playing alongside Coq, whether that would be Ramsey or Wilshere. To take from American football parlance, reverting to a "cover 2" instead of a "cover 1". So 2 midfield players are shielding the back 4 instead on 1 and then you give freedom for you wingers to be the wide men and tuck in both wide attackers behind the striker to play counter attack. You are building of Ozil (again like we did with Dennis) rather than the striker ahead of him (Henry used to be on the wing). The problem at the moment is Giroud. He cannot rotate with Alexis (left attacker) or Theo (right attacker), because he is not good in the wide positions, so literally we are getting a bottleneck in the middle of the pitch, making us very easy to defend against. Ozil does not have the pace (although he tries) to go wide in order to make the pitch larger when that happens.
This is why I stated even before we bought Ozil, that Giroud is not suited to the Wenger system. Essentially Barca tried to do that with a much more tactilely and technically astute forward (ibrahimovic) than Giroud and still didn't work. Tiki taka really needs sharp movements in every position on the pitch but for striker its even more essential because you have to be able to switch in and out between counter attacking and possession based football.
posted on 28/5/15
*freedom for your wingers should actually read, freedom to your full backs to be your wide men.
posted on 28/5/15
And before anyone points out RVP wasn't a speed burner, keep in mind RVP was winger and so very sharp with his movements. He was converted to center forward because Wenger needs that rotation for his system to work. The center forward has to be comfortable on the wing, just like the wide attackers have to comfortable in the central area (as strikers) for the system to work!
posted on 28/5/15
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 4 hours, 4 minutes ago
That being said, I can appreciate why there might be a bit of a reluctance to play Ozil (in the free role) and Walcott (down the wing) in the bigger games though, simply because Ozil's unlikely to drop back and help cover/protect the full-back if Walcott stays high up the pitch.
--------------------------------
Stu against the bigger teams, Ozil would only be expected to drop back to near the center circle (like Bergkamp used to position himself). The person who would need to be told to hold his runs would the midfielder playing alongside Coq, whether that would be Ramsey or Wilshere. To take from American football parlance, reverting to a "cover 2" instead of a "cover 1". So 2 midfield players are shielding the back 4 instead on 1 and then you give freedom for you wingers to be the wide men and tuck in both wide attackers behind the striker to play counter attack. You are building of Ozil (again like we did with Dennis) rather than the striker ahead of him (Henry used to be on the wing). The problem at the moment is Giroud. He cannot rotate with Alexis (left attacker) or Theo (right attacker), because he is not good in the wide positions, so literally we are getting a bottleneck in the middle of the pitch, making us very easy to defend against. Ozil does not have the pace (although he tries) to go wide in order to make the pitch larger when that happens.
This is why I stated even before we bought Ozil, that Giroud is not suited to the Wenger system. Essentially Barca tried to do that with a much more tactilely and technically astute forward (ibrahimovic) than Giroud and still didn't work. Tiki taka really needs sharp movements in every position on the pitch but for striker its even more essential because you have to be able to switch in and out between counter attacking and possession based football.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with pretty much all of that
It's one of the reasons I feel Welbeck's contribution has been a little underrated as a striker: he does a huge amount in terms of running the channels and stretching the opposition, which I feel benefited Sanchez greatly - allowing the Chilean to drift in between the lines without completely congesting our play.
However, his goal return is pretty underwhelming, which is why the idea of converting Walcott to a central striking role is so appealing - he has the ability to stretch teams and create space for our more creative players, as well as the movement and finishing necessary to be a 20+ goal a season striker.
My only concern is his inability to play with his back-to-goal when we're under the cosh, which is arguably why he struggled so much when we had our backs against the wall again Bayern a couple of years ago.
posted on 29/5/15
Some good points have been made here, especially by Jenius regarding the roles of our wide players but I fail to see the relevance considering we don't play a 4-3-3 system.
Since we play the 4-2-3-1 balance is very important on the flanks hence why Arsene prefers Ox & Welbz on the right as they offer more defensively than Theo.
As appealing as it sounds going forward, Ozil & Theo in the same 3 behind the CF is very unlikely to happen for a long period because they both offer little off the ball.
Although they play the roles differently Alexis has effectively replaced Theo as our wide forward apart from maybe the odd occasion I can't see both playing on each flank for a long period of time. Alexis' workrate is just a bonus it's not his assigned duty it's mainly down to the right side to offer more defensively.
Also ball retention is probably considered more than anything by Arsene and with Theo who doesn't contribute to build up play and Alexis who's not great at retaining possession our football would probably suffer (though I'd prefer it because it'd give Ozil more time on the ball and options to use) it's something Wenger won't want.
Welbeck although clumsy, he contributes to build up a fair amount whilst Arsene sees Ox as a central based player don't forget, when these 2 aren't available he uses Ramsey/Jack as alternatives.
It's a bit annoying because we haven't play good football consistently for a while anyway, I hope we start with Theo out wide on Saturday I think we should encourage an end-to-end game as we have the more clinical players but it'd come at the expense of either Ramsey or Cazorla and I don't see that happening. Maybe upfront but I doubt Giroud would be dropped tbh
posted on 29/5/15
My only concern is his inability to play with his back-to-goal when we're under the cosh, which is arguably why he struggled so much when we had our backs against the wall again Bayern a couple of years ago.
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If you think back to our discussions on 606 when we used to win the big trophies . It was the same in those days!
Wenger does not get hung up on systems. He uses a blend of players and starting positions which then become much more fluid during the game. Fans think that Barca invented tiki taka. They did not. It was started by the Dutch in the 70s, Cryuff then tried to implement it in the 80s and 90s and Wenger was disciple of that, followed by Pep doing his coaching badges at Arsenal.
Essentially even in the 4-4-2 we used to play we still relied on Pires and Freddie/Wiltord, tucking in, Henry attacking wide to in and a deeper striker linking play in the middle, whether that was Dennis or Kanu. We never hoofed the ball once. In fact it was only when Arsene started experimenting with Cesc, that brought Henry into the middle and he started playing a little more long ball. But we never challenged for a major trophy again!
So look at our attackers today. Walcott/Alexis/Giroud/Welbeck. Do you see Barca hoofing the ball to no height, Messi, Suarez or Neymar? The key to creating space is movement off the ball, and not static big players. This is why I pointed to RVP who started his career as a winger. 90% of the long ball to him, ended with RVP on the ground. It really does not work. We need to go back to a more fluid system. I have been waiting for Alexis-Theo-Welbeck. But Wenger has been nursing Theo back to health very slowly. In that combination Welbeck is the stronger one when we need to release the ball quickly, but the players can move along the line.
I would love, Alexis-Benzema-Theo, for a forward line based on movement and goal threat. But that seems a dream tbh.
posted on 29/5/15
My take is that even Lacazette would be sufficient for that type of system to work J99.
Not entirely keen about the Martinez rumours, his general play has been meh whenever I've seen him play in the CL.
posted on 29/5/15
Not sure abt Lacazette March, haven't seen him enough to judge. I agree though, anyone mobile and strong on the ball. No one can suggest that Augero is tall but he leads the Man City line by himself very successfully because of superb movement off the ball and then he is very strong on the ball as well.
posted on 29/5/15
Lol buy the top scoring CM in England and turn him into a DM. That would be classic Arsene. Better not facking happen, he's not going to win us anything.
posted on 29/5/15
jenius, I agree, and for the vast majority of games, I think it would work fine.
I was referring to the - admittedly very rare - sort of games where the opposition are really controlling the game/possession, force us deep, and create a real separation between our midfield and our striker.
Like when Bayern dominated us and Walcott was unable to have any impact against Van Buyten and Dante because we were essentially just clearing the ball up to him. Similarly, Van Persie had these problems when we played Barcelona - he got completely isolated (because our midfielders were getting pressed back and were mainly defending in and around our box) and didn't really have the physical presence to hold-up play whilst our midfielders got up in support.
I think it's these sort of situations where we'd probably be better switching to someone like Welbeck in the central role - which I think you may have been alluding to with your fluid 3 man attack of Welbeck, Walcott, and Sanchez - i.e. someone with both the physical presence to hold-up play, and the pace necessary to run the channels and stretch the opposition.
And perhaps once we've got more of a foothold in the game, Walcott can start to drift into more central positions.
Inventor, good point as I mentioned before, I can appreciate the concerns about having Ozil and Walcott playing together in a 4231, unless, as jenius suggests, we get someone like Ramsey to play a much more disciplined role alongside Coquelin.
This is actually another reason why I'm starting to come round to Walcott in the central role: his lack of defensive work down the flanks is really symptomatic of his role as a wing-forward (in that he has to stay relatively high up the pitch so that he can run-in-behind, meaning that he can't always afford to track back and protect his full-back); but if he plays the central striker role, he can focus on defending from the front and won't have the onus of worrying about what's going on behind him.
posted on 30/5/15
Belated, but also meant to add there's the fact that Giroud does a lot in terms of defending set-pieces, so I think his aerial presence may need to be replaced if we do start to play Walcott instead - perhaps with the return of Debuchy.
posted on 30/5/15
I was referring to the - admittedly very rare - sort of games where the opposition are really controlling the game/possession, force us deep, and create a real separation between our midfield and our striker.
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Although I suggested that depends on the blend of the 3 up front. I mentioned RVP drifting to the wing when Walcott moved to the middle a few years ago. Like Henry used to with Pires/Freddie in the 2000s. Welbeck/Theo/Alexis rotating up front would also work imo.
However keep in mind this point. Its actually very easy to defeat the high press game. And that was a favourite tactic O'Leary used to employ for Leeds Utd against us (pressing us high). Henry used to score for fun against them! Anyone fast on the last man, and simple ball over the top from either of your centre backs or holding midfield player completely destroys the high press. Frankly we have only become susceptible to the high press game since Walcott has been injured and of course Giroud's lack of pace does not help.
Coq's lack of passing is also hindrance to that and why I have suggested before a player who could pass like Arteta but defend like Coq is needed with some urgency!
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