comment by What would Stuart Pearce do? (U3126)
posted 20 minutes ago
MrMortimer
Could AFC have won a bit more, a cup here or there, or spent a bit more, (beyond their means)? Probably yes. But the reality is AFC chose to forsake short term success for long term stability.
Any business of AFC’s size that is confronted with a project the size of the Emirates construction, (and wish to remain self-sufficient) is obviously going to have to make significant provisions.
This choice on reflection was undoubtedly the correct decision, given the period, (economic downturn) and fate of other clubs. Portsmouth secured an FA Cup but were nearly wound up as a result of their overspending, and now reside in the fourth tier (league two) of English football.
Finances aside, from a sporting perspective losing our best player(s) each season, and having to continually rebuild (with little squad cohesion) was difficult too. AW has openly acknowledged he considers this his greatest achievement during his 20yrs at AFC.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wenger has achieved the bare minimum in regards to the league and underachived overall
Arsenals net spend in the PL era is £141m
Chelseas £649m
Man City £733m
Man U £427
http://www.transferleague.co.uk/premier-league-1992-to-date/transfer-league-tables/premier-league-table-1992-to-date
Liverpool, Villa, Newcastle, Sunderland and Tottenham have spent more that us, but what have they got to show for it, not a PL title between them.
Stuart Pearce - I suppose it goes back to how you judge success.
For the big clubs I think success is often judged on what they have won... At the risk of sounding like Souness "get your medals out!". Of course this is limited as clubs with smaller budgets might not win a trophy at the end of the season yet still consider it a success. Unfortunately there is no agreed formula for what this is - no pound to place ratio everyone agrees on... if there were such a formula then I would imagine the best managers would rarely be at the top clubs. (Last season it would probably be Mick Mccarthy at Ipswich... but really, would you say he was a better manager than Arsene Wenger of Jose?)
The second point I made was that you have to judge available resources - not just spend or net spend. Take this hypothetical scenario - Wenger has a transfer kitty of £100m but chose not to use it and put faith in the players already at the club, and at the end of the season he gets 4th. If that a good season because he gets 4th without spending much money or is it a bad season because he didn't use all available to go out and win the league?
comment by MrMortimer (U8234)
posted 14 minutes ago
Stuart Pearce - I suppose it goes back to how you judge success.
For the big clubs I think success is often judged on what they have won... At the risk of sounding like Souness "get your medals out!". Of course this is limited as clubs with smaller budgets might not win a trophy at the end of the season yet still consider it a success. Unfortunately there is no agreed formula for what this is - no pound to place ratio everyone agrees on... if there were such a formula then I would imagine the best managers would rarely be at the top clubs. (Last season it would probably be Mick Mccarthy at Ipswich... but really, would you say he was a better manager than Arsene Wenger of Jose?)
The second point I made was that you have to judge available resources - not just spend or net spend. Take this hypothetical scenario - Wenger has a transfer kitty of £100m but chose not to use it and put faith in the players already at the club, and at the end of the season he gets 4th. If that a good season because he gets 4th without spending much money or is it a bad season because he didn't use all available to go out and win the league?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The latter
MrMortimer
I accept your point.
Even in recent years AW has continually chosen not to spend the cash available to him. If AFC are unsuccessful, then obviously the finger of blame will be pointed for this reason. It will be argued (and rightfully so) that millions in the bank will not score goals, or keep clean sheets.
The only issue I have is when the amount available is grossly misrepresented. Which is often is. No more so than Chip Keswick's (inaccurate) comments that last year that AW had £200m to spend.
Regardless of AW’s future with AFC, he has helped lay the foundations for success for years to come.
Which I think will only be appreciated long after he has gone. Probably around 2081....
Stuart Pearce - quite agree the numbers are inaccurate - one of the bad things about supporting a top side is that the stories will abound regardless of accuracy.
I am not suggesting Arsene is a bad manager - he has won trophies, went through a season undefeated and as you point out has managed a club through a difficult financial period.
I do think however he has underachieved in some seasons - top 4 is a good achievement, and he has consistently achieved that... but I think he could have achieved more.
MrMortimer
As do (many) Arsenal fans (achieved more).
Success is measured differently by us all, and given the complexity of Arsenal’s progress, (or lack of depending on view) I can understand why many fans are/have been frustrated.
If we are to kick on he needs to step down and let somebody else take over someone who will spend money and freshen things up as long as he's incharge we will never win the league.
WengersNearlyMen
While AW will at some stage step down, what do you believe needs to be “freshened up” ?
The old argument that used to levelled against AW was the club would never win another trophy. The club then won back to back FA Cups.
New tactics is a big factor plus someone who won't continue to reward deadwood with new contracts someone who won't allow players to just turn up and think it's enough.
WengersNearlyMen♤
It’s all well and good stating new tactics but what elements would you change? I’m not stating I agree with all his decisions (who would) but if a "big factor" you wanting rid of AW relates to tactics, feel something different should be at least suggested??
In regard to new contracts, all clubs will renew – simply to maintain any sell on value for the player. Do you suggest AFC just letting contracts run down and letting the player leave on a free?
Will have to head on
Nobody is going to want to buy arteta or rosicky are they so why is wenger offering them new contracts?
Tactics as learn how do adapt to teams who set up counter attack football and tactics to play against teams who are better than us as Wenger plays the same way all the time and hes been found out.
I think his issue is that he is very reactive. Even when developing the cesc, nasri and rvp type, each of those teams had massive issues due to neglect in certain positions. When we have the mf and strikers firing, it's a bad combo of toure, gallas and ffs almunia in goal. We sort out the goalie this season but leave the cf position short and no cover for dm. Last season we had ozil and Sanchez etc...but started the season with SIX first team defenders with 4 of them fullbacks. It's like he cannot see the bigger picture and has tunnel vision fixated on one position. It's crazy!! I foresee that he will try to get a world class cf in the next 2-3 transfer windows and neglect the fact that per is on the decline and we need a commanding cb soon.
♤WengersNearlyMen♤
Suggest you read a recent interview AW gave to le Quipe:
http://news.arseblog.com/2015/11/arsene-wengers-full-interview-with-lequipe-sport-and-style/
Like him or loathe him he is probably one of the most intelligent persons in football.
Certainly a level of intelligence unseen in the English game.
comment by What would Stuart Pearce do? (U3126)
posted 16 hours, 43 minutes ago
♤WengersNearlyMen♤
Suggest you read a recent interview AW gave to le Quipe:
http://news.arseblog.com/2015/11/arsene-wengers-full-interview-with-lequipe-sport-and-style/
Like him or loathe him he is probably one of the most intelligent persons in football.
Certainly a level of intelligence unseen in the English game.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not an idiot as in dull an idiot in the things hes does.
comment by What would Stuart Pearce do? (U3126)
posted 16 hours, 44 minutes ago
♤WengersNearlyMen♤
Suggest you read a recent interview AW gave to le Quipe:
http://news.arseblog.com/2015/11/arsene-wengers-full-interview-with-lequipe-sport-and-style/
Like him or loathe him he is probably one of the most intelligent persons in football.
Certainly a level of intelligence unseen in the English game.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Would u rather an intelligent man who's not able to win the premier league or a less intelligent man who can?
WengersNearlyMen♤
I would trust someone with a great deal of intelligence to make overall sounder choices.
When compared to someone of lesser intellect.
comment by What would Stuart Pearce do? (U3126)
posted 1 hour, 34 minutes ago
WengersNearlyMen♤
I would trust someone with a great deal of intelligence to make overall sounder choices.
When compared to someone of lesser intellect.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Who do u see as the most successful wenger or jose or wenger or say someone like carl acholotti?
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Biggest loser in history
Page 2 of 2
posted on 4/2/16
comment by What would Stuart Pearce do? (U3126)
posted 20 minutes ago
MrMortimer
Could AFC have won a bit more, a cup here or there, or spent a bit more, (beyond their means)? Probably yes. But the reality is AFC chose to forsake short term success for long term stability.
Any business of AFC’s size that is confronted with a project the size of the Emirates construction, (and wish to remain self-sufficient) is obviously going to have to make significant provisions.
This choice on reflection was undoubtedly the correct decision, given the period, (economic downturn) and fate of other clubs. Portsmouth secured an FA Cup but were nearly wound up as a result of their overspending, and now reside in the fourth tier (league two) of English football.
Finances aside, from a sporting perspective losing our best player(s) each season, and having to continually rebuild (with little squad cohesion) was difficult too. AW has openly acknowledged he considers this his greatest achievement during his 20yrs at AFC.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wenger has achieved the bare minimum in regards to the league and underachived overall
posted on 4/2/16
Arsenals net spend in the PL era is £141m
Chelseas £649m
Man City £733m
Man U £427
http://www.transferleague.co.uk/premier-league-1992-to-date/transfer-league-tables/premier-league-table-1992-to-date
Liverpool, Villa, Newcastle, Sunderland and Tottenham have spent more that us, but what have they got to show for it, not a PL title between them.
posted on 4/2/16
Stuart Pearce - I suppose it goes back to how you judge success.
For the big clubs I think success is often judged on what they have won... At the risk of sounding like Souness "get your medals out!". Of course this is limited as clubs with smaller budgets might not win a trophy at the end of the season yet still consider it a success. Unfortunately there is no agreed formula for what this is - no pound to place ratio everyone agrees on... if there were such a formula then I would imagine the best managers would rarely be at the top clubs. (Last season it would probably be Mick Mccarthy at Ipswich... but really, would you say he was a better manager than Arsene Wenger of Jose?)
The second point I made was that you have to judge available resources - not just spend or net spend. Take this hypothetical scenario - Wenger has a transfer kitty of £100m but chose not to use it and put faith in the players already at the club, and at the end of the season he gets 4th. If that a good season because he gets 4th without spending much money or is it a bad season because he didn't use all available to go out and win the league?
posted on 4/2/16
comment by MrMortimer (U8234)
posted 14 minutes ago
Stuart Pearce - I suppose it goes back to how you judge success.
For the big clubs I think success is often judged on what they have won... At the risk of sounding like Souness "get your medals out!". Of course this is limited as clubs with smaller budgets might not win a trophy at the end of the season yet still consider it a success. Unfortunately there is no agreed formula for what this is - no pound to place ratio everyone agrees on... if there were such a formula then I would imagine the best managers would rarely be at the top clubs. (Last season it would probably be Mick Mccarthy at Ipswich... but really, would you say he was a better manager than Arsene Wenger of Jose?)
The second point I made was that you have to judge available resources - not just spend or net spend. Take this hypothetical scenario - Wenger has a transfer kitty of £100m but chose not to use it and put faith in the players already at the club, and at the end of the season he gets 4th. If that a good season because he gets 4th without spending much money or is it a bad season because he didn't use all available to go out and win the league?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The latter
posted on 4/2/16
MrMortimer
I accept your point.
Even in recent years AW has continually chosen not to spend the cash available to him. If AFC are unsuccessful, then obviously the finger of blame will be pointed for this reason. It will be argued (and rightfully so) that millions in the bank will not score goals, or keep clean sheets.
The only issue I have is when the amount available is grossly misrepresented. Which is often is. No more so than Chip Keswick's (inaccurate) comments that last year that AW had £200m to spend.
Regardless of AW’s future with AFC, he has helped lay the foundations for success for years to come.
Which I think will only be appreciated long after he has gone. Probably around 2081....
posted on 4/2/16
Stuart Pearce - quite agree the numbers are inaccurate - one of the bad things about supporting a top side is that the stories will abound regardless of accuracy.
I am not suggesting Arsene is a bad manager - he has won trophies, went through a season undefeated and as you point out has managed a club through a difficult financial period.
I do think however he has underachieved in some seasons - top 4 is a good achievement, and he has consistently achieved that... but I think he could have achieved more.
posted on 4/2/16
MrMortimer
As do (many) Arsenal fans (achieved more).
Success is measured differently by us all, and given the complexity of Arsenal’s progress, (or lack of depending on view) I can understand why many fans are/have been frustrated.
posted on 4/2/16
If we are to kick on he needs to step down and let somebody else take over someone who will spend money and freshen things up as long as he's incharge we will never win the league.
posted on 4/2/16
WengersNearlyMen
While AW will at some stage step down, what do you believe needs to be “freshened up” ?
The old argument that used to levelled against AW was the club would never win another trophy. The club then won back to back FA Cups.
posted on 4/2/16
New tactics is a big factor plus someone who won't continue to reward deadwood with new contracts someone who won't allow players to just turn up and think it's enough.
posted on 4/2/16
WengersNearlyMen♤
It’s all well and good stating new tactics but what elements would you change? I’m not stating I agree with all his decisions (who would) but if a "big factor" you wanting rid of AW relates to tactics, feel something different should be at least suggested??
In regard to new contracts, all clubs will renew – simply to maintain any sell on value for the player. Do you suggest AFC just letting contracts run down and letting the player leave on a free?
Will have to head on
posted on 4/2/16
Nobody is going to want to buy arteta or rosicky are they so why is wenger offering them new contracts?
Tactics as learn how do adapt to teams who set up counter attack football and tactics to play against teams who are better than us as Wenger plays the same way all the time and hes been found out.
posted on 4/2/16
I think his issue is that he is very reactive. Even when developing the cesc, nasri and rvp type, each of those teams had massive issues due to neglect in certain positions. When we have the mf and strikers firing, it's a bad combo of toure, gallas and ffs almunia in goal. We sort out the goalie this season but leave the cf position short and no cover for dm. Last season we had ozil and Sanchez etc...but started the season with SIX first team defenders with 4 of them fullbacks. It's like he cannot see the bigger picture and has tunnel vision fixated on one position. It's crazy!! I foresee that he will try to get a world class cf in the next 2-3 transfer windows and neglect the fact that per is on the decline and we need a commanding cb soon.
posted on 4/2/16
He's an idiot
posted on 4/2/16
♤WengersNearlyMen♤
Suggest you read a recent interview AW gave to le Quipe:
http://news.arseblog.com/2015/11/arsene-wengers-full-interview-with-lequipe-sport-and-style/
Like him or loathe him he is probably one of the most intelligent persons in football.
Certainly a level of intelligence unseen in the English game.
posted on 5/2/16
comment by What would Stuart Pearce do? (U3126)
posted 16 hours, 43 minutes ago
♤WengersNearlyMen♤
Suggest you read a recent interview AW gave to le Quipe:
http://news.arseblog.com/2015/11/arsene-wengers-full-interview-with-lequipe-sport-and-style/
Like him or loathe him he is probably one of the most intelligent persons in football.
Certainly a level of intelligence unseen in the English game.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not an idiot as in dull an idiot in the things hes does.
posted on 5/2/16
comment by What would Stuart Pearce do? (U3126)
posted 16 hours, 44 minutes ago
♤WengersNearlyMen♤
Suggest you read a recent interview AW gave to le Quipe:
http://news.arseblog.com/2015/11/arsene-wengers-full-interview-with-lequipe-sport-and-style/
Like him or loathe him he is probably one of the most intelligent persons in football.
Certainly a level of intelligence unseen in the English game.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Would u rather an intelligent man who's not able to win the premier league or a less intelligent man who can?
posted on 5/2/16
WengersNearlyMen♤
I would trust someone with a great deal of intelligence to make overall sounder choices.
When compared to someone of lesser intellect.
posted on 5/2/16
comment by What would Stuart Pearce do? (U3126)
posted 1 hour, 34 minutes ago
WengersNearlyMen♤
I would trust someone with a great deal of intelligence to make overall sounder choices.
When compared to someone of lesser intellect.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Who do u see as the most successful wenger or jose or wenger or say someone like carl acholotti?
Page 2 of 2