Comment deleted by Site Moderator

My new house has a broken dishwasher, the kitchen is 7 years old so I'm assuming it is too, I called a guy out to fix it, he told me I'd be cheaper replacing the whole machine (he didn't charge for call out).

That's not right, it cannot be cheaper to replace than repair. The throwaway society is convenient but counterproductive in a planet of dying resources.

comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 30 minutes ago
I love how the notion that growth decreases poverty is hypothetical
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Growth is also unsustainable.
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Yes it cannot last forever and ever but it helps bring people out of poverty.

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 30 minutes ago
I love how the notion that growth decreases poverty is hypothetical
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Growth is also unsustainable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes it cannot last forever and ever but it helps bring people out of poverty.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Until it doesn't.

comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 hour, 1 minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 3 minutes ago
Predictions on what would happen with a move away from consumerism is also not fact, it's a prediction from you. You say it is based on historical fact and environmental predictions aren't, completely ignoring the fact that the Earth has 100s of millions of years of history of mass extinction events due to changes in climate.

As always though, the basis of your argument is that you are reasonable and everyone who disagrees with you isn't. That way you can delegitimise any opposing views in your own mind. It's incredibly boring and tedious.
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The mass consumerism created millions of jobs in poorer countries which raise the GDP and lifted a lot of people out of extreme poverty and starvation removing that consumerism will remove the jobs lower the GDP increase hunger and poverty once again

It’s hardly the same as the predictions made about the planet and the effects of carbon usage over the next hundred years.

The historical reference I am using is 20 years old ffs not millions or billions of years ago which might possibly make an argument against environmental policy
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So 20 years of data is better that billions of years.
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So I asked for facts you refuse to give any you want me to make your arguments for you and now you entered troll mode

Laters
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I don't need you to make arguments for me. You think 20 years of consumerism outweighs billions of years of data on the effect changes in climate can have on the planet. At which point there is little point in engaging with you.
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I didn’t say need, I said want.

And yes 20 years (the last 20 years) of data relating to growth of impoverished countries growing and reducing extreme poverty is far more accurate and relevant to the point that if those factors which caused said reduction were removed then the poverty & hunger would stop decreasing. As opposed to billions of years of global temperatures and predicting whys may or may not happen over the next hundred years or so.

When you deal with lengths of time such as those, the accuracy decreases. Predictions beyond a few years become increasingly inaccurate.

comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 9 minutes ago
My new house has a broken dishwasher, the kitchen is 7 years old so I'm assuming it is too, I called a guy out to fix it, he told me I'd be cheaper replacing the whole machine (he didn't charge for call out).

That's not right, it cannot be cheaper to replace than repair. The throwaway society is convenient but counterproductive in a planet of dying resources.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Printers and ink cartridges 😂

The biggest problem in the world is that every economic system is based on growth on a planet with finite resources. Basically driving our own destruction.

comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 30 minutes ago
I love how the notion that growth decreases poverty is hypothetical
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Growth is also unsustainable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes it cannot last forever and ever but it helps bring people out of poverty.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Until it doesn't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, when the poorer countries reach western levels of prosperity I’m sure they’ll let you know. Until then, I think they’re more concerned about feeding their children than what may or may not happen in the next 100 years

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 9 minutes ago
My new house has a broken dishwasher, the kitchen is 7 years old so I'm assuming it is too, I called a guy out to fix it, he told me I'd be cheaper replacing the whole machine (he didn't charge for call out).

That's not right, it cannot be cheaper to replace than repair. The throwaway society is convenient but counterproductive in a planet of dying resources.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Printers and ink cartridges 😂
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Printers are a pain in the rear.

But yes if the main board is gone these things can be repaired but the part costs are so high when you include labour and potentially several weeks for it to arrive. Getting a new machine is usually the answer

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 30 minutes ago
I love how the notion that growth decreases poverty is hypothetical
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Growth is also unsustainable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes it cannot last forever and ever but it helps bring people out of poverty.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Until it doesn't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, when the poorer countries reach western levels of prosperity I’m sure they’ll let you know. Until then, I think they’re more concerned about feeding their children than what may or may not happen in the next 100 years
----------------------------------------------------------------------

And 20/30 years from now, when western societies are buying up even more food globally, due to crop failures, and those very same kids are dieing of hunger, and their homes become unliveable I'm sure they will be really happy for a few more years of consumerism.

I'd rather solve the issue of a lack of food now, than do it when millions of acres globally have been flooded/desertified.

Short term thinking.

comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 30 minutes ago
I love how the notion that growth decreases poverty is hypothetical
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Growth is also unsustainable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes it cannot last forever and ever but it helps bring people out of poverty.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Until it doesn't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, when the poorer countries reach western levels of prosperity I’m sure they’ll let you know. Until then, I think they’re more concerned about feeding their children than what may or may not happen in the next 100 years
----------------------------------------------------------------------

And 20/30 years from now, when western societies are buying up even more food globally, due to crop failures, and those very same kids are dieing of hunger, and their homes become unliveable I'm sure they will be really happy for a few more years of consumerism.

I'd rather solve the issue of a lack of food now, than do it when millions of acres globally have been flooded/desertified.

Short term thinking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

You've got to think short term. Only the last 20 years are relevant remember.

comment by Samus (Isle of) Arran (U22669)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 9 minutes ago
My new house has a broken dishwasher, the kitchen is 7 years old so I'm assuming it is too, I called a guy out to fix it, he told me I'd be cheaper replacing the whole machine (he didn't charge for call out).

That's not right, it cannot be cheaper to replace than repair. The throwaway society is convenient but counterproductive in a planet of dying resources.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Printers and ink cartridges 😂
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Printers are a pain in the rear.

But yes if the main board is gone these things can be repaired but the part costs are so high when you include labour and potentially several weeks for it to arrive. Getting a new machine is usually the answer
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For quite a while one of the companies priced a new printer below the cost of two cartridges..

Trying to remember which one it was, eventually it was addressed of course, but it's just another great example of free market capitalism. Drove their printer sales stats, and I'm sure that enabled better bonuses and dividends.

In 20/30 years time, if we continue on our current path, there will likely be more poverty and hunger in the world regardless of 'growth'.

comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 30 minutes ago
I love how the notion that growth decreases poverty is hypothetical
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Growth is also unsustainable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes it cannot last forever and ever but it helps bring people out of poverty.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Until it doesn't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, when the poorer countries reach western levels of prosperity I’m sure they’ll let you know. Until then, I think they’re more concerned about feeding their children than what may or may not happen in the next 100 years
----------------------------------------------------------------------

And 20/30 years from now, when western societies are buying up even more food globally, due to crop failures, and those very same kids are dieing of hunger, and their homes become unliveable I'm sure they will be really happy for a few more years of consumerism.

I'd rather solve the issue of a lack of food now, than do it when millions of acres globally have been flooded/desertified.

Short term thinking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So in 20/30 years from now millions of acres will either be deserts or flooded?

comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 minutes ago
The biggest problem in the world is that every economic system is based on growth on a planet with finite resources. Basically driving our own destruction.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its called capitalism.

comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 minutes ago
In 20/30 years time, if we continue on our current path, there will likely be more poverty and hunger in the world regardless of 'growth'.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You sure about that yeah?

comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 1 minute ago
In 20/30 years time, if we continue on our current path, there will likely be more poverty and hunger in the world regardless of 'growth'.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And there is a LOT of evidence to support this already.

Especially extensive work done by insurance industries to plan out future liabilities for crop insurance schemes.

Lets just walk into the apocalypse and allow climate change to fack us up.

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 30 minutes ago
I love how the notion that growth decreases poverty is hypothetical
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Growth is also unsustainable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes it cannot last forever and ever but it helps bring people out of poverty.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Until it doesn't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, when the poorer countries reach western levels of prosperity I’m sure they’ll let you know. Until then, I think they’re more concerned about feeding their children than what may or may not happen in the next 100 years
----------------------------------------------------------------------

And 20/30 years from now, when western societies are buying up even more food globally, due to crop failures, and those very same kids are dieing of hunger, and their homes become unliveable I'm sure they will be really happy for a few more years of consumerism.

I'd rather solve the issue of a lack of food now, than do it when millions of acres globally have been flooded/desertified.

Short term thinking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So in 20/30 years from now millions of acres will either be deserts or flooded?

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/environment/article/desertification

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 minutes ago
In 20/30 years time, if we continue on our current path, there will likely be more poverty and hunger in the world regardless of 'growth'.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You sure about that yeah?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What are you doubting? That there will be more poverty, hunger and death at some point because of climate change or that it will happen in 20/30 years. Is the problem the timeline or the fact that it will happen at some point?

Average Global Temperatures

And within 15 to 20 years of this, the earth will be warmer than it has been in the past 100,000 years,” Hansen said. According to the Star-Phoenix, his model predicted that “by the year 2020 we will experience an average temperature increase of around three degrees [Celsius], with even greater extremes.”

Global emissions

In 1978, The Vancouver Sun cited a paper in the journal Science. University of Washington researcher Minze Stuiver predicted that the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere will have doubled by 2020.

We learn that if present trends continue, with economics the only limit on the exploitation of fossil fuels, the CO2 concentration will have doubled by 2020. Forty to 80 years after fuel burning peaks — that will come mid-century — the CO2 concentration will be five to 10 times its present level.”


Snows of Kilimanjaro to vanish by 2020.”

“At this rate, all of the ice will be gone between 2010 and 2020,’ said Lonnie Thompson, a geologist at Ohio State University. ‘And that is probably a conservative estimate.”

Al Gore’s 2006 documentary An Inconvenient Truth also predicted that there would be no snow on Kilimanjaro in 2020.

Yet in February 2020, The Times of London reported that the “Staying power of Kilimanjaro snow defies Al Gore’s gloomy forecast.”


That took me 2 minutes to find those examples of what was predicted for 2020 which haven’t come to pass.

How can you all be SO confident of these current predictions?

I’m not being confrontational here, I just want to know. It’s people like me who need convincing; not yourselves.

Communism destroyed communities but capitalism is much better, and will destroy the world, possibly make us extinct.

Three cheers for capitalism. Hip hip...

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 10 seconds ago
Average Global Temperatures

And within 15 to 20 years of this, the earth will be warmer than it has been in the past 100,000 years,” Hansen said. According to the Star-Phoenix, his model predicted that “by the year 2020 we will experience an average temperature increase of around three degrees [Celsius], with even greater extremes.”

Global emissions

In 1978, The Vancouver Sun cited a paper in the journal Science. University of Washington researcher Minze Stuiver predicted that the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere will have doubled by 2020.

We learn that if present trends continue, with economics the only limit on the exploitation of fossil fuels, the CO2 concentration will have doubled by 2020. Forty to 80 years after fuel burning peaks — that will come mid-century — the CO2 concentration will be five to 10 times its present level.”


Snows of Kilimanjaro to vanish by 2020.”

“At this rate, all of the ice will be gone between 2010 and 2020,’ said Lonnie Thompson, a geologist at Ohio State University. ‘And that is probably a conservative estimate.”

Al Gore’s 2006 documentary An Inconvenient Truth also predicted that there would be no snow on Kilimanjaro in 2020.

Yet in February 2020, The Times of London reported that the “Staying power of Kilimanjaro snow defies Al Gore’s gloomy forecast.”


That took me 2 minutes to find those examples of what was predicted for 2020 which haven’t come to pass.

How can you all be SO confident of these current predictions?

I’m not being confrontational here, I just want to know. It’s people like me who need convincing; not yourselves.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Ever heard of confirmation bias? You've already told us how hard it is to make accurate predictions. Yet you are willing to use some anecdotes based on the same concept to back up your claims?

How about finding some predictions that have actually come to pass? Obviously some predictions will not be exact.

Since 1912 Mt. Kilimanjaro's ice fields have shrunk around 85% in area, decreasing from 12 square kilometres in size to just 1.85 square kilometres. That pace seems to be accelerating, as the glaciers shrunk 26% in area between 2000 and 2007"

So a couple of guys got the date on which snow would vanish wrong and you're using that to make your case? Fact is the snow is disappearing. Who the fack cares on which date it will be completely gone?

You're better than that Satty. Took me less than a minute btw.

comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - I got 5 on it. (U1282)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 minutes ago
The biggest problem in the world is that every economic system is based on growth on a planet with finite resources. Basically driving our own destruction.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its called capitalism.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Communism and socialism are also based on growth. We basically need a new system and the world needs to find a way to adjust.