not sure it would have made a difference, we were poor in and around their pen area, poor shooting, lack of composure, wing backs poor .....we were just rubbish today

comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 25 seconds ago
not sure it would have made a difference, we were poor in and around their pen area, poor shooting, lack of composure, wing backs poor .....we were just rubbish today
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good point but at least we all would have seen his intent

I just wasted 90 minutes of my life....

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

Our movement in attacking play has been very poor lately

comment by Sideshow (U11809)
posted 26 seconds ago
We didn't have a lot of attacking options on the bench today. I think it was a case of Conte keeping some players back to help change the game if needs be.

I agree with the Zappacosta sub though. Totally pointless. Wished he took a chance a brought on Hudson-Odoi
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Conte's been way too cautious this season when it comes to team selection and substitutions.

If we start with a 3-5-2 you can almost predict man for man what subs he'll make but I don't think it's worked once this season.

If we have all our AMs on the field the next sub on will be Zappacosta regardless of how either of the wing-backs have played.

And of course, if there's no Morata we can expect the "false 9" to be wheeled out (in the prem) irrespective of the opposition.

We've become overly predictable in terms of tactics, attacking movement and team formation. We've struggled all season against packed defences because teams know exactly how to set up against us. Conte needs to get creative again or I can only see us just about crawling along to a top four finish if we carry on the way we've been going.

comment by Kuki (U6289)
posted 5 minutes ago
Our movement in attacking play has been very poor lately
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True. We need to hire an offensive coach to help Conte. When you focus too much on defensive shape, you lose something at the other end.

comment by The Blue Texan (U11585)
posted 52 seconds ago
comment by Kuki (U6289)
posted 5 minutes ago
Our movement in attacking play has been very poor lately
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True. We need to hire an offensive coach to help Conte. When you focus too much on defensive shape, you lose something at the other end.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
We have talented enough players but instinct with ligh guidance won't cut. We need a more developed offensive program.

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

comment by Sideshow (U11809)
posted 56 seconds ago
If we start with a 3-5-2 you can almost predict man for man what subs he'll make but I don't think it's worked once this season.
_____________________
Against Atletico it worked, that's just off the top of my head.
---------------------------------

I meant if the 3-5-2 isn't working initially. The actual formation has worked from the start against United (and Atletico ofc) but it's definitely been very hit or miss against smaller sides.

My main gripe with the subs is that they're usually quite late and we rarely look to do anything different with our formation. All too often it's just like for like and they end up barely affecting the game at all.

And I think the biggest issue with our system is that we don't really have a settled and reliable one in terms of attacking output. Our attacks (and the lion share of our goals this season) have basically relied on Morata and Hazard combining to create or waiting for the opponent to make a mistake. If we lose either Morata or Hazard the first tactic obviously crumbles and the second isn't going to give us consistent chance creating especially when the opposition defend deep and/or we have a weak press.

We missed a proper striker up there. Basically we're winning that with Morata up top. Someone to get at the end of the crossing

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

comment by Sideshow (U11809)
posted 2 minutes ago
That is more down to the personnel than the system though. Pedro and Willian have not been close to last years levels.

I don't believe we are playing bad enough in general for us to tear it up again. Nor is our squad built, or big enough to play in alternative formations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think it's solely a personnel issue. You cna have the best attacking talents in the world but if all you train all week is concede procession and catch teams on the counter, you hit problems when you face teams that just sits behind the ball.

I saw an interview with Cesc where he said he had to adapt to Chelsea's way of playing after playing for Arsenal and Barcelona, you know, teams that like to hold on to the ball and attack. That told me a lot

comment by I Kante Drinkwater (U15973)
posted 22 minutes ago
We missed a proper striker up there. Basically we're winning that with Morata up top. Someone to get at the end of the crossing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed. Morata would have made a difference, and Batshuayi is the player who needs replacing as he offers very little. But sometimes you just need to give credit where it's due - Everton defended really well.

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

comment by Sideshow (U11809)
posted 5 minutes ago
We don't train all week to concede possession and hit teams on the counter though. The way we play out from the back, the learned movements from our players in our build up play, how we are positioned to stretch teams, third man runs or switches to the spare man.

It is much more nuanced than simply defend well and see what the players get up to on the attack.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Third man running only ever seems to be a feature of our play when Fabregas plays. Only him and Hazard seem to have the ability/vision to play that final pass to make use of that spare man. Whenever we play with Willian and/or Pedro, attacking play solely consists of intricate flicks in and around the box which rarely seem to penetrate the opposition defence.

And we don't actually stretch teams through our AMs - that comes from our wingback play. But to give them a proper opportunity to cut through the opposition they need to receive the ball in space and be running onto it so they can either make a run to the by-line and cut back or send in an early low cross with pace. The former is what we generally see from Moses and the latter is from Alonso. The problem is that neither of their deliveries are consistent or accurate enough to pose a real threat and the player movement/positioning in the box isn't good enough to maximise the little opportunities provided by such attacking plays.

So yes, you could say it's a personnel issue but I think a lot of our wastefulness with the ball could be reduced if we continuously drilled these types of plays into the players during training. Our midfielders seem to be adept at switching the ball to our wing-backs but when it comes to providing attacking support via one-twos so they're able to effectively attack space in the final third, we don't do it anywhere near often enough. 3 at the back can be a properly offensive formation but we've got to make better use of our wingbacks and our main AMs need to know what positions to take up in the box (on instinct).

comment by Sideshow (U11809)
posted 42 minutes ago
That is more down to the personnel than the system though. Pedro and Willian have not been close to last years levels.

I don't believe we are playing bad enough in general for us to tear it up again. Nor is our squad built, or big enough to play in alternative formations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
before today we had taken 25 points from 30 so i agree with sideshow that some perspective is needed.

However, there are some obvious weaknesses in our team that were not addressed in the summer and now we are paying the price a little

comment by minididi (U17584)
posted 14 seconds ago
comment by Sideshow (U11809)
posted 5 minutes ago
We don't train all week to concede possession and hit teams on the counter though. The way we play out from the back, the learned movements from our players in our build up play, how we are positioned to stretch teams, third man runs or switches to the spare man.

It is much more nuanced than simply defend well and see what the players get up to on the attack.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Third man running only ever seems to be a feature of our play when Fabregas plays. Only him and Hazard seem to have the ability/vision to play that final pass to make use of that spare man. Whenever we play with Willian and/or Pedro, attacking play solely consists of intricate flicks in and around the box which rarely seem to penetrate the opposition defence.

And we don't actually stretch teams through our AMs - that comes from our wingback play. But to give them a proper opportunity to cut through the opposition they need to receive the ball in space and be running onto it so they can either make a run to the by-line and cut back or send in an early low cross with pace. The former is what we generally see from Moses and the latter is from Alonso. The problem is that neither of their deliveries are consistent or accurate enough to pose a real threat and the player movement/positioning in the box isn't good enough to maximise the little opportunities provided by such attacking plays.

So yes, you could say it's a personnel issue but I think a lot of our wastefulness with the ball could be reduced if we continuously drilled these types of plays into the players during training. Our midfielders seem to be adept at switching the ball to our wing-backs but when it comes to providing attacking support via one-twos so they're able to effectively attack space in the final third, we don't do it anywhere near often enough. 3 at the back can be a properly offensive formation but we've got to make better use of our wingbacks and our main AMs need to know what positions to take up in the box (on instinct).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Isn't that the trade off though? If you play with wingbacks you need the two CMs to sit deeper and join the attack less

comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by minididi (U17584)
posted 14 seconds ago
comment by Sideshow (U11809)
posted 5 minutes ago
We don't train all week to concede possession and hit teams on the counter though. The way we play out from the back, the learned movements from our players in our build up play, how we are positioned to stretch teams, third man runs or switches to the spare man.

It is much more nuanced than simply defend well and see what the players get up to on the attack.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Third man running only ever seems to be a feature of our play when Fabregas plays. Only him and Hazard seem to have the ability/vision to play that final pass to make use of that spare man. Whenever we play with Willian and/or Pedro, attacking play solely consists of intricate flicks in and around the box which rarely seem to penetrate the opposition defence.

And we don't actually stretch teams through our AMs - that comes from our wingback play. But to give them a proper opportunity to cut through the opposition they need to receive the ball in space and be running onto it so they can either make a run to the by-line and cut back or send in an early low cross with pace. The former is what we generally see from Moses and the latter is from Alonso. The problem is that neither of their deliveries are consistent or accurate enough to pose a real threat and the player movement/positioning in the box isn't good enough to maximise the little opportunities provided by such attacking plays.

So yes, you could say it's a personnel issue but I think a lot of our wastefulness with the ball could be reduced if we continuously drilled these types of plays into the players during training. Our midfielders seem to be adept at switching the ball to our wing-backs but when it comes to providing attacking support via one-twos so they're able to effectively attack space in the final third, we don't do it anywhere near often enough. 3 at the back can be a properly offensive formation but we've got to make better use of our wingbacks and our main AMs need to know what positions to take up in the box (on instinct).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Isn't that the trade off though? If you play with wingbacks you need the two CMs to sit deeper and join the attack less
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True but it also depends on opposition. If they sit back a lot the 2nd CM can (and should) become an auxiliary attacking mid. Runs from deep (by a CM) is something we should be looking to do a lot more against packed defences but we need to stretch them enough to create space for that run. And we should all know how deadly those runs can be - our highest ever goalscorer made a career out of them.

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

comment by Sideshow (U11809)
posted 3 minutes ago
I do believe that improving certain positions in our squad will make big differences to our team. At the moment having a left-wing back who isn't fast enough to beat a man, attacking mid(s) who aren't productive or consistently productive and no goal scoring CM is having repercussions when we aren't playing well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree 100% in all honesty. Sandro at lwb and someone like Mahrez would've made a world of difference this season. Pedro and Willian can both do a decent job but I think there's only really space for one of them in our side if we really want to challenge the best. We need someone close to Hazard's level in terms of creativity/dribbling ability/goal threat to give our team options.

If 3-4-3 was going to be our main formation, we really had to improve the opposite wing but once again the board sat on their hands and thought what we had was "good enough". That being said, the number of CMs we have suggest that a move to 3-5-2 was always on the cards but buying two CMs who have almost zero goal threat was a very expensive mistake. 3-5-2 basically needs two ingredients to ensure the attack isn't isolated. Wingbacks who are highly adept at attacking (i.e. can essentially play as wingers) and a third midfielder who is a serious goal threat - either through attacking runs into the box or long distance shooting (preferably both ala Lamps).

If you look at our acquisitions as a whole this summer they were dreadfully poor and don't give the impression that we had any real structured thinking in how we wanted to progress this season.

Sandro yes,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but Mahrez? i have serious doubts about him....................

I think he's the kind of player who believes he should be playing with the best and would raise his game if he were with us. Yes his form was awful last season but watching him over the last couple of months makes me certain he has the ability to succeed with us.

That being said, he was the first player that sprung to mind because of his affordability and availability. I'd be more than happy with another attacker who has similar qualities but has been doing it at a top level for longer.

With Sideshow here. It's being pedantic to suggest it, but the core weakness in the style of play we deploy are two formations that heavily rely on quality, complete wing backs which we don't have to reach the pinnacle of the squads potential. It's quite clear watching Alonso & Moses that one was a FB turned WB and the other WG turned WB. Not to slate either because considering their starts in football both do fantastic jobs, but each one clearly has strengths and weaknesses playing in systems where they're holding their zones solo.

The lack of a goal scoring CM isn't as big an issue with the 3-4-2-1 provided both AM's in the hole provide that threat (as Hazard & Pedro were last season). It could be with the three man midfield but that being said it's been most successful for us this season in unconventional circumstances. We utilize it best as a way to combat being outran in midfield but our attacks still spread to the flanks quickly/almost making it a defensive shape - and putting the load on having WB's who are good in attack, of which Alonso is slightly lacking as Sideshow said.

I will stress these are minor issues, will present more of a problem in the CL than the PL long term if they're not addressed.

Two in midfield already known that Fab doesn't work there, from start anyway.