Along with all that, he has lost his legacy as Arsenal's most successful manager - he will be remembered for the last largely-miserable thirteen years.
----------------------------------------------------
I'm puzzled people thought this considering the last 13 years.
I rate George Graham above him and Chapman is miles ahead of him.
It is though a little bit funny
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Wenger Till I Die (U7482)
posted 5 minutes ago
Along with all that, he has lost his legacy as Arsenal's most successful manager - he will be remembered for the last largely-miserable thirteen years.
----------------------------------------------------
I'm puzzled people thought this considering the last 13 years.
I rate George Graham above him and Chapman is miles ahead of him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Look, I loathe the senile one as much as the next guy, but how on Earth can you possibly rate Graham ahead of him? Chapman makes sense as he essentially built the club and ingrained them into the countries national fabric, but Graham, as highly as I do rate him, isn't realistically ahead of Wenger by any possible measure other than he was sacked before he could really do damage to his legacy (a legacy that includes, rightly or wrongly, taking bungs diabolical football and David Hillier).
Well written & some sage points
The Don Howe days & that Bruce Rioch season (we finished 12th 😳😂) were worse for me.
When they scored tonight, I felt literally nothing. I’ve gone from anger to feeling nauseous to laughing to now complete apathy whenever we are scored against, over the last few years, & I suspect I’m not alone, which says it all.
I’d hate to see him sacked & just hope he falls on his sword, however unlikely that appears to be 🙄
"that Bruce Rioch season (we finished 12th 😳😂) were worse for me."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
We finished 5th under Rioch.
The season we finished 12th started with George Graham at the helm and finished with Stewart Houston caretaking.
comment by Herbie (U7136)
posted 2 minutes ago
"that Bruce Rioch season (we finished 12th 😳😂) were worse for me."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
We finished 5th under Rioch.
The season we finished 12th started with George Graham at the helm and finished with Stewart Houston caretaking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah yes, right you are
comment by Herbie (U7136)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Wenger Till I Die (U7482)
posted 5 minutes ago
Along with all that, he has lost his legacy as Arsenal's most successful manager - he will be remembered for the last largely-miserable thirteen years.
----------------------------------------------------
I'm puzzled people thought this considering the last 13 years.
I rate George Graham above him and Chapman is miles ahead of him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Look, I loathe the senile one as much as the next guy, but how on Earth can you possibly rate Graham ahead of him? Chapman makes sense as he essentially built the club and ingrained them into the countries national fabric, but Graham, as highly as I do rate him, isn't realistically ahead of Wenger by any possible measure other than he was sacked before he could really do damage to his legacy (a legacy that includes, rightly or wrongly, taking bungs diabolical football and David Hillier).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2 league titles in 8 years vs 3 league titles in over 21. Graham managed in the days there wasn't an established Sky 4 piggy-backing off the expanded Champions League to form a top 4 cartel that has only really been crashed by City's billions. It's misleading to look at our greater top 4 consistency under Wenger and making it out as an achievement.
Graham's position is easily defensible even if not definitive. If Wenger left in 2005, then he'd definitely have been greater than Graham. He ruined his own legacy by not knowing when to quit.
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Wenger Till I Die (U7482)
posted 25 seconds ago
comment by Herbie (U7136)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Wenger Till I Die (U7482)
posted 5 minutes ago
Along with all that, he has lost his legacy as Arsenal's most successful manager - he will be remembered for the last largely-miserable thirteen years.
----------------------------------------------------
I'm puzzled people thought this considering the last 13 years.
I rate George Graham above him and Chapman is miles ahead of him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Look, I loathe the senile one as much as the next guy, but how on Earth can you possibly rate Graham ahead of him? Chapman makes sense as he essentially built the club and ingrained them into the countries national fabric, but Graham, as highly as I do rate him, isn't realistically ahead of Wenger by any possible measure other than he was sacked before he could really do damage to his legacy (a legacy that includes, rightly or wrongly, taking bungs diabolical football and David Hillier).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2 league titles in 8 years vs 3 league titles in over 21. Graham managed in the days there wasn't an established Sky 4 piggy-backing off the expanded Champions League to form a top 4 cartel that has only really been crashed by City's billions. It's misleading to look at our greater top 4 consistency under Wenger and making it out as an achievement.
Graham's position is easily defensible even if not definitive. If Wenger left in 2005, then he'd definitely have been greater than Graham. He ruined his own legacy by not knowing when to quit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2 league titles in 8 years because he was sacked. Sacked for harbouring a culture of drinking, drugs, gambling, arrests and under the table payments. Sacked for presiding over a slide and decline much more pronounced and emphatic than the slow 'death by a thousand' cuts we've seen with Wenger.
I don't give a crap whether there wasn't an established sky four, Arsenal were still comfortably the 3rd most prestigious club in the country, hence the reason Graham was able to sign David Seaman for a British record fee (for a goalkeeper), hence the reason Graham was able to break the British transfer record for Ian Wright. There was still a cartel and we, along with the other premier league 5 (Utd, Liverpool, Spurs and Everton) were very much front and centre of it.Don't rewrite history to make your point, because the same could just as easily be done for Wenger if we leave certain aspects out.
Wenger's position, despite the malaise, is every bit as defensible as Graham's and, despite ruining his legacy, isn't ending in moral disgrace. It's unarguable that Wenger has been the better Arsenal manager, stop being silly and emotional - you're better than that.
It is. From the outside I've been of the opinion that even though Wenger isn't the best man for the job right now, keeping him there buys you time to get his successor spot on (avoid hiring a Moyes).
But you've past the tipping point now. For the sake of your club and protecting his legacy you need to make a change in May at the latest.
You speak of feeling apathy, well as a Chelsea fan I can say I felt sorry for anyone who supports Arsenal tonight. We played with more fight when we were near the relegation zone a few years ago. Was sad to watch.
comment by Herbie (U7136)
posted 34 seconds ago
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Wenger Till I Die (U7482)
posted 25 seconds ago
comment by Herbie (U7136)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Wenger Till I Die (U7482)
posted 5 minutes ago
Along with all that, he has lost his legacy as Arsenal's most successful manager - he will be remembered for the last largely-miserable thirteen years.
----------------------------------------------------
I'm puzzled people thought this considering the last 13 years.
I rate George Graham above him and Chapman is miles ahead of him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Look, I loathe the senile one as much as the next guy, but how on Earth can you possibly rate Graham ahead of him? Chapman makes sense as he essentially built the club and ingrained them into the countries national fabric, but Graham, as highly as I do rate him, isn't realistically ahead of Wenger by any possible measure other than he was sacked before he could really do damage to his legacy (a legacy that includes, rightly or wrongly, taking bungs diabolical football and David Hillier).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2 league titles in 8 years vs 3 league titles in over 21. Graham managed in the days there wasn't an established Sky 4 piggy-backing off the expanded Champions League to form a top 4 cartel that has only really been crashed by City's billions. It's misleading to look at our greater top 4 consistency under Wenger and making it out as an achievement.
Graham's position is easily defensible even if not definitive. If Wenger left in 2005, then he'd definitely have been greater than Graham. He ruined his own legacy by not knowing when to quit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2 league titles in 8 years because he was sacked. Sacked for harbouring a culture of drinking, drugs, gambling, arrests and under the table payments. Sacked for presiding over a slide and decline much more pronounced and emphatic than the slow 'death by a thousand' cuts we've seen with Wenger.
I don't give a crap whether there wasn't an established sky four, Arsenal were still comfortably the 3rd most prestigious club in the country, hence the reason Graham was able to sign David Seaman for a British record fee (for a goalkeeper), hence the reason Graham was able to break the British transfer record for Ian Wright. There was still a cartel and we, along with the other premier league 5 (Utd, Liverpool, Spurs and Everton) were very much front and centre of it.Don't rewrite history to make your point, because the same could just as easily be done for Wenger if we leave certain aspects out.
Wenger's position, despite the malaise, is every bit as defensible as Graham's and, despite ruining his legacy, isn't ending in moral disgrace. It's unarguable that Wenger has been the better Arsenal manager, stop being silly and emotional - you're better than that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Graham's last 3 seasons had a UEFA CWC win, an FA Cup and a League Cup. And the club finished 4th in his last league finish. The decline was not nearly as dramatic as you make out, even though there was clear decline from the heady days of lifting the title. The guy won 6 major trophies in 8 years, including 2 entirely unexpected league titles. I don't see how that is less impressive than Wenger's record.
Saying you don't give a crap about the established Sky 4 ignores important context. There has never been a time in league history as in the past 2 decades when a group of 4/5 clubs consistently finished in the top 4. This was a product of the expanded CL format that allowed a group of clubs to dominate with financial power over the rest. Only City's billions eventually crashed that (though Spurs have done brilliantly to get themselves in the mix). Such a status quo never existed in the Graham era.
There was nothing "comfortable" about our top 3 in prestige that you claim. Arsenal hadn't won the title since '70/71 when Graham came and their league finishes where 7th, 7th, 6th, 10th and barely 10 years earlier, finished as low as 17th.
When Graham arrived, he plucked Dixon and Bould from lower-division Stoke, Winterburn from newly promoted Wimbledon and brought in Seaman, building the very same back 5 that gave Wenger his initial success. Compare that to the mess of a legacy Wenger will leave behind.
Again, it is very easy to make a case for Graham. Nothing "emotional" about that. The fact you think it's so set in stone that it is indisputable is exactly my problem.
Graham's bung is irrelevant here. I'm comparing their footballing legacies and ability as managers.
Like Cara was saying. It really does seem like the end for him now more then ever. There’s just total apathy around the fans, void of any passion really. Even the anger is going. Which makes it worse. Everyone is basically just waiting for wenger to leave. The sooner it happens the sooner we can all just move on, and get a bit of passion into this club
Interestingly, Wenger fortuitously met David Dein while coming to watch Graham (Wenger wasn't some Arsenal fan). He once said of Graham:
“I used to watch Arsenal because I felt I could learn much from how he [Graham] organised his team tactically. I wasn’t the only young European coach to think that way.”
Of course, everyone knew Graham's ability as an defensive organizer, but the most underrated legacy of his era is the financial stability he gave the club. Arsenal were mired in losses, debt and mediocrity when Graham arrived. The club had won 1 league title since 1953 and spent good time in mid-table. Graham built a title-winning squad despite turning a net transfer profit after buying mostly obscure players. The crowds came back to Highbury. By '95, when he left in disgrace, Arsenal were in great financial shape that Wenger would profit from, apart from profiting from Graham's back 5. You can read a decent account here:
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/what-did-george-graham-ever-do-arsene-wenger-heres-what
It's just surprising to me how underrated Graham's legacy is. I don't know if it is recency bias, Graham's admittedly drab football, or the scandal that ended his Arsenal career which is responsible for this.
"Graham's last 3 seasons had a UEFA CWC win, an FA Cup and a League Cup. And the club finished 4th in his last league finish. The decline was not nearly as dramatic as you make out, even though there was clear decline from the heady days of lifting the title."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you kidding? We were almost in a relegation battle when he was sacked (a battle that ended with us 6 points above the bloody relegation zone. From a CWC the previous season, to barely surviving and the unravelled mess that was Paul Merson and his own shady dealings, that was fall from grace as steep as they come.
========================================
"The guy won 6 major trophies in 8 years, including 2 entirely unexpected league titles. I don't see how that is less impressive than Wenger's record."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And Wenger won 7 in his first 8 years. You're going to use the fact that Wenger wasn't awful enough or shady enough to get sacked against him in a head-to-head? I'd get your stance if it was an undeserved Abramovic-esque type sacking (Ancelotti, Mourinho 1st time), but we hadn't been close to a title in 4 seasons, the club was rife with ill-discipline, drugs and addicts and the man had Arsenal football club in a facking relegation battle for crying out loud. On what planet does doing that and getting pushed make you better than Wenger?
=========================================
"including 2 entirely unexpected league titles."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't begrudge him those titles, but if we're giving him credit for that, he deserves equal levels of criticism for failing to even put up a challenge in two seasons in which we entered as favourites (91/92 and the first premier league season in which we finished fecking 10th).
=========================================
"Saying you don't give a crap about the established Sky 4 ignores important context. There has never been a time in league history as in the past 2 decades when a group of 4/5 clubs consistently finished in the top 4."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair enough, but Wenger was a major part of establishing Arsenal as part of that. Whilst that status quo never existed in the Graham era, he was still leading the third most prestigious and the third richest club at the time, so let's not pretend he was this hugely hamstrung pauper battling upstream.
=========================================
"There was nothing "comfortable" about our top 3 in prestige that you claim. Arsenal hadn't won the title since '70/71 when Graham came and their league finishes where 7th, 7th, 6th, 10th and barely 10 years earlier, finished as low as 17th."
=========================================
So let me get this straight, Graham is getting credit for turning around a team that 10 years prior (and one or two player similar (David O'Leary I believe) finished 17th, but you're not doing the same for Wenger who took a team that finished 6 points away from relegation 3 years prior to the title in his forst full season?
I expect you to reply by going on about " had he left in his first 8 years". But he didn't, because he was horrific enough to get sacked after banking the credit. How awful do you have to be to get firred after what Graham had accomplished? I'm not sure how getting sacked for taking bungs, presiding over a relegation scrap and a veritable asylum makes you a hero, but I guess we have different standards.
=========================================
"When Graham arrived, he plucked Dixon and Bould from lower-division Stoke, Winterburn from newly promoted Wimbledon and brought in Seaman, building the very same back 5 that gave Wenger his initial success. Compare that to the mess of a legacy Wenger will leave behind."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't believe I'm saying this, but Wenger will be leaving behind a club that has the financial might to compete at the upper end of the transfer spectrum (if not the very top given the investment in the game). We're able to pay ridiculous wages to top players and that's a direct result of a lot of Wenger's work. In theory that should hold a successor in good stead.
Yeah, Graham's back four were superb and a large part of Wenger's early success and a great legacy, but again, Graham had these men and took them to fighting for their premier league lives. It took Arsene Wenger and his acute knowledge of the foregin market to sort the absolute train wreck that Graham;s negligence had left behind. We were in afar worse position than we are now when he left carrying such stalwarts as Glenn Helder, Vince Bartrum and Ian Selley.
=========================================
"Again, it is very easy to make a case for Graham. Nothing "emotional" about that. The fact you think it's so set in stone that it is indisputable is exactly my problem."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Under no measure is a shady bung taker who, in his last three years at the club, played diabolical football and had the team fighting addiction, relegation and each other, arguably better than a manager with far more expansive accomplishments.
=========================================
"Graham's bung is irrelevant here. I'm comparing their footballing legacies and ability as managers."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It absolutely is. While he was taking bungs, his team was falling apart, affecting the on-field product and his ability to control it. Graham was struggling to compete with footballing masterminds like Phil Neal, Gerry Francis and Joe Kinnear. Give me a break; Wenger has been te better Arsenal manager hands down.
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Wenger Till I Die (U7482)
posted 15 minutes ago
Interestingly, Wenger fortuitously met David Dein while coming to watch Graham (Wenger wasn't some Arsenal fan). He once said of Graham:
“I used to watch Arsenal because I felt I could learn much from how he [Graham] organised his team tactically. I wasn’t the only young European coach to think that way.”
Of course, everyone knew Graham's ability as an defensive organizer, but the most underrated legacy of his era is the financial stability he gave the club. Arsenal were mired in losses, debt and mediocrity when Graham arrived. The club had won 1 league title since 1953 and spent good time in mid-table. Graham built a title-winning squad despite turning a net transfer profit after buying mostly obscure players. The crowds came back to Highbury. By '95, when he left in disgrace, Arsenal were in great financial shape that Wenger would profit from, apart from profiting from Graham's back 5. You can read a decent account here:
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/what-did-george-graham-ever-do-arsene-wenger-heres-what
It's just surprising to me how underrated Graham's legacy is. I don't know if it is recency bias, Graham's admittedly drab football, or the scandal that ended his Arsenal career which is responsible for this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think George Graham is a great and one of the great British managers; he's basically the reason I'm an Arsenal fan (through signing Ian Wright at a time when I knew nothing of institutions and followed only personalities). I'd never underestimate his legacy and a lot of what I'm saying in this debate is to argue a point, but, as great as his legacy is, it's hurt by getting sacked, by presiding over chaos and a relegation scrap and allowing his focus to stray. He's still an Arsenal great and will forever be an Arsenal legend, but he quite simply is not a better Arsenal manager than Wenger - despite the utter farce that Wenger's reign has become.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but Wenger will be leaving behind a club that has the financial might to compete at the upper end of the transfer spectrum (if not the very top given the investment in the game). We're able to pay ridiculous wages to top players and that's a direct result of a lot of Wenger's work. In theory that should hold a successor in good stead.
-------------------------------------------------
We're not gonna agree on much of the other points, so this is the one I chose to tackle. Wenger's contribution to our financial status is easily the most overrated part of his legacy. The way people talk about it at times, it's almost like he was the sole or even the main driver of the vision. Spurs are doing the same thing and no one would claim it is because of Pochettino. The reality is Arsenal were sleeping giants for decades. Arsenal happens to be the biggest club in London, the biggest city in Europe and one of the world's great financial capitals. There was massive potential to exploit this which was hindered by the capacity of Highbury. We are in great financial situation, but so are all the other original Sky 4, and now City, and imminently Tottenham too.
You've spoken about the massive league position yoyoing under Graham compared to Wenger, but as I've said, except you were a Liverpool in the era (that lot finished either 1st or 2nd an astonishing 18 times in 19 years between '72 and '91) the rest of the division saw very unstable results. Fergie with Man U finished 11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th, 6th before he won his first title in '93 despite being the top spender of the era. You're making a very unfair comparison of that era with the Sky 4 era. I do not regard Wenger's top 4 consistency as a basis of his superiority to Graham. Peculiar circumstances have allowed a few clubs to consolidate their dominance over others in this era and that is what Wenger profited from. That is appropriate context when talking about Graham taking us to the bottom half of the table.
Well said and written chaps, informative and insider knowledge there but by fck the length and depth of those posts is surely beyond most drunken readers? 🤔 😂 😂
"Wenger's contribution to our financial status is easily the most overrated part of his legacy."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I actually agree that his contribution is overstated, however, he has been a major contributor. Sure, he's benefitted from extraneous variables, but the fact is, he's been the one driving the ship and driving the ship with the tightest purse strings in that time. I'm by no means saying what he did is astounding (I think he underachieved on the field), but the fact remains, despite the underachievement, he did do a good job in that time.The reality of Arsenal being sleeping giants and a great location were all true during Graham's time in charge too.
=========================================
"I do not regard Wenger's top 4 consistency as a basis of his superiority to Graham."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And neither do I, but it's a certainly a contributing factor. Not only did Wenger outperform him in his first 8 years (three league titles and no finish below 2nd for a club that hadn't finished in the top 2 for the 7 years before he came and were in a relegation battle 2 years before his arrival), he also wasn't deservedly sacked for woefulness. As poor as the 2nd half of Wenger's tenure has been (in relative terms), and as many embarrassments as he'd presided over, he's never even come close to what Graham oversaw in 94.
=========================================
"Peculiar circumstances have allowed a few clubs to consolidate their dominance over others in this era and that is what Wenger profited from. That is appropriate context when talking about Graham taking us to the bottom half of the table."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I strongly disagree. It was very much his own doing. His tactics became antiquated, his recruitment bizarre and his focus non-existant. That he allowed this to happen to a club he professes to love, is a complete disgrace and rightly used against him.
=========================================
On an unrelated side note:
"Liverpool in the era (that lot finished either 1st or 2nd an astonishing 18 times in 19 years between '72 and '91)"
And the season they didn't finish top 2 (they finished 5th in 81) they went on to conquer Europe. Utterly phenomenal stretch of sustained success that.
On an unrelated side note:
"Liverpool in the era (that lot finished either 1st or 2nd an astonishing 18 times in 19 years between '72 and '91)"
And the season they didn't finish top 2 (they finished 5th in 81) they went on to conquer Europe. Utterly phenomenal stretch of sustained success that.
-------------------------------
Agreed. Never happening again for them though.
Think I'm gonna go to sleep......
Very probably isn't happening again for anyone, to be fair!
I should really get my head down too. Adios, my man.
Didn't Liverpool finished 7th or 8th few seasons back?
despite being the top spender of the era.
.....
SAF netspend from 1986 to 1998 was £4m.
This is where Wenger leaves and you 'll wish he hasn't in 3 years time.
Believe it or not there were United fans wbo thought Fergie was dome for 2 or 3 seasons before retirement.
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posted on 1/3/18
Along with all that, he has lost his legacy as Arsenal's most successful manager - he will be remembered for the last largely-miserable thirteen years.
----------------------------------------------------
I'm puzzled people thought this considering the last 13 years.
I rate George Graham above him and Chapman is miles ahead of him.
posted on 1/3/18
It is though a little bit funny
posted on 1/3/18
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Wenger Till I Die (U7482)
posted 5 minutes ago
Along with all that, he has lost his legacy as Arsenal's most successful manager - he will be remembered for the last largely-miserable thirteen years.
----------------------------------------------------
I'm puzzled people thought this considering the last 13 years.
I rate George Graham above him and Chapman is miles ahead of him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Look, I loathe the senile one as much as the next guy, but how on Earth can you possibly rate Graham ahead of him? Chapman makes sense as he essentially built the club and ingrained them into the countries national fabric, but Graham, as highly as I do rate him, isn't realistically ahead of Wenger by any possible measure other than he was sacked before he could really do damage to his legacy (a legacy that includes, rightly or wrongly, taking bungs diabolical football and David Hillier).
posted on 1/3/18
Well written & some sage points
The Don Howe days & that Bruce Rioch season (we finished 12th 😳😂) were worse for me.
When they scored tonight, I felt literally nothing. I’ve gone from anger to feeling nauseous to laughing to now complete apathy whenever we are scored against, over the last few years, & I suspect I’m not alone, which says it all.
I’d hate to see him sacked & just hope he falls on his sword, however unlikely that appears to be 🙄
posted on 1/3/18
"that Bruce Rioch season (we finished 12th 😳😂) were worse for me."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
We finished 5th under Rioch.
The season we finished 12th started with George Graham at the helm and finished with Stewart Houston caretaking.
posted on 1/3/18
comment by Herbie (U7136)
posted 2 minutes ago
"that Bruce Rioch season (we finished 12th 😳😂) were worse for me."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
We finished 5th under Rioch.
The season we finished 12th started with George Graham at the helm and finished with Stewart Houston caretaking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah yes, right you are
posted on 1/3/18
comment by Herbie (U7136)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Wenger Till I Die (U7482)
posted 5 minutes ago
Along with all that, he has lost his legacy as Arsenal's most successful manager - he will be remembered for the last largely-miserable thirteen years.
----------------------------------------------------
I'm puzzled people thought this considering the last 13 years.
I rate George Graham above him and Chapman is miles ahead of him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Look, I loathe the senile one as much as the next guy, but how on Earth can you possibly rate Graham ahead of him? Chapman makes sense as he essentially built the club and ingrained them into the countries national fabric, but Graham, as highly as I do rate him, isn't realistically ahead of Wenger by any possible measure other than he was sacked before he could really do damage to his legacy (a legacy that includes, rightly or wrongly, taking bungs diabolical football and David Hillier).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2 league titles in 8 years vs 3 league titles in over 21. Graham managed in the days there wasn't an established Sky 4 piggy-backing off the expanded Champions League to form a top 4 cartel that has only really been crashed by City's billions. It's misleading to look at our greater top 4 consistency under Wenger and making it out as an achievement.
Graham's position is easily defensible even if not definitive. If Wenger left in 2005, then he'd definitely have been greater than Graham. He ruined his own legacy by not knowing when to quit.
posted on 1/3/18
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Wenger Till I Die (U7482)
posted 25 seconds ago
comment by Herbie (U7136)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Wenger Till I Die (U7482)
posted 5 minutes ago
Along with all that, he has lost his legacy as Arsenal's most successful manager - he will be remembered for the last largely-miserable thirteen years.
----------------------------------------------------
I'm puzzled people thought this considering the last 13 years.
I rate George Graham above him and Chapman is miles ahead of him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Look, I loathe the senile one as much as the next guy, but how on Earth can you possibly rate Graham ahead of him? Chapman makes sense as he essentially built the club and ingrained them into the countries national fabric, but Graham, as highly as I do rate him, isn't realistically ahead of Wenger by any possible measure other than he was sacked before he could really do damage to his legacy (a legacy that includes, rightly or wrongly, taking bungs diabolical football and David Hillier).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2 league titles in 8 years vs 3 league titles in over 21. Graham managed in the days there wasn't an established Sky 4 piggy-backing off the expanded Champions League to form a top 4 cartel that has only really been crashed by City's billions. It's misleading to look at our greater top 4 consistency under Wenger and making it out as an achievement.
Graham's position is easily defensible even if not definitive. If Wenger left in 2005, then he'd definitely have been greater than Graham. He ruined his own legacy by not knowing when to quit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2 league titles in 8 years because he was sacked. Sacked for harbouring a culture of drinking, drugs, gambling, arrests and under the table payments. Sacked for presiding over a slide and decline much more pronounced and emphatic than the slow 'death by a thousand' cuts we've seen with Wenger.
I don't give a crap whether there wasn't an established sky four, Arsenal were still comfortably the 3rd most prestigious club in the country, hence the reason Graham was able to sign David Seaman for a British record fee (for a goalkeeper), hence the reason Graham was able to break the British transfer record for Ian Wright. There was still a cartel and we, along with the other premier league 5 (Utd, Liverpool, Spurs and Everton) were very much front and centre of it.Don't rewrite history to make your point, because the same could just as easily be done for Wenger if we leave certain aspects out.
Wenger's position, despite the malaise, is every bit as defensible as Graham's and, despite ruining his legacy, isn't ending in moral disgrace. It's unarguable that Wenger has been the better Arsenal manager, stop being silly and emotional - you're better than that.
posted on 1/3/18
It is. From the outside I've been of the opinion that even though Wenger isn't the best man for the job right now, keeping him there buys you time to get his successor spot on (avoid hiring a Moyes).
But you've past the tipping point now. For the sake of your club and protecting his legacy you need to make a change in May at the latest.
You speak of feeling apathy, well as a Chelsea fan I can say I felt sorry for anyone who supports Arsenal tonight. We played with more fight when we were near the relegation zone a few years ago. Was sad to watch.
posted on 1/3/18
comment by Herbie (U7136)
posted 34 seconds ago
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Wenger Till I Die (U7482)
posted 25 seconds ago
comment by Herbie (U7136)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Wenger Till I Die (U7482)
posted 5 minutes ago
Along with all that, he has lost his legacy as Arsenal's most successful manager - he will be remembered for the last largely-miserable thirteen years.
----------------------------------------------------
I'm puzzled people thought this considering the last 13 years.
I rate George Graham above him and Chapman is miles ahead of him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Look, I loathe the senile one as much as the next guy, but how on Earth can you possibly rate Graham ahead of him? Chapman makes sense as he essentially built the club and ingrained them into the countries national fabric, but Graham, as highly as I do rate him, isn't realistically ahead of Wenger by any possible measure other than he was sacked before he could really do damage to his legacy (a legacy that includes, rightly or wrongly, taking bungs diabolical football and David Hillier).
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2 league titles in 8 years vs 3 league titles in over 21. Graham managed in the days there wasn't an established Sky 4 piggy-backing off the expanded Champions League to form a top 4 cartel that has only really been crashed by City's billions. It's misleading to look at our greater top 4 consistency under Wenger and making it out as an achievement.
Graham's position is easily defensible even if not definitive. If Wenger left in 2005, then he'd definitely have been greater than Graham. He ruined his own legacy by not knowing when to quit.
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2 league titles in 8 years because he was sacked. Sacked for harbouring a culture of drinking, drugs, gambling, arrests and under the table payments. Sacked for presiding over a slide and decline much more pronounced and emphatic than the slow 'death by a thousand' cuts we've seen with Wenger.
I don't give a crap whether there wasn't an established sky four, Arsenal were still comfortably the 3rd most prestigious club in the country, hence the reason Graham was able to sign David Seaman for a British record fee (for a goalkeeper), hence the reason Graham was able to break the British transfer record for Ian Wright. There was still a cartel and we, along with the other premier league 5 (Utd, Liverpool, Spurs and Everton) were very much front and centre of it.Don't rewrite history to make your point, because the same could just as easily be done for Wenger if we leave certain aspects out.
Wenger's position, despite the malaise, is every bit as defensible as Graham's and, despite ruining his legacy, isn't ending in moral disgrace. It's unarguable that Wenger has been the better Arsenal manager, stop being silly and emotional - you're better than that.
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Graham's last 3 seasons had a UEFA CWC win, an FA Cup and a League Cup. And the club finished 4th in his last league finish. The decline was not nearly as dramatic as you make out, even though there was clear decline from the heady days of lifting the title. The guy won 6 major trophies in 8 years, including 2 entirely unexpected league titles. I don't see how that is less impressive than Wenger's record.
Saying you don't give a crap about the established Sky 4 ignores important context. There has never been a time in league history as in the past 2 decades when a group of 4/5 clubs consistently finished in the top 4. This was a product of the expanded CL format that allowed a group of clubs to dominate with financial power over the rest. Only City's billions eventually crashed that (though Spurs have done brilliantly to get themselves in the mix). Such a status quo never existed in the Graham era.
There was nothing "comfortable" about our top 3 in prestige that you claim. Arsenal hadn't won the title since '70/71 when Graham came and their league finishes where 7th, 7th, 6th, 10th and barely 10 years earlier, finished as low as 17th.
When Graham arrived, he plucked Dixon and Bould from lower-division Stoke, Winterburn from newly promoted Wimbledon and brought in Seaman, building the very same back 5 that gave Wenger his initial success. Compare that to the mess of a legacy Wenger will leave behind.
Again, it is very easy to make a case for Graham. Nothing "emotional" about that. The fact you think it's so set in stone that it is indisputable is exactly my problem.
Graham's bung is irrelevant here. I'm comparing their footballing legacies and ability as managers.
posted on 1/3/18
Like Cara was saying. It really does seem like the end for him now more then ever. There’s just total apathy around the fans, void of any passion really. Even the anger is going. Which makes it worse. Everyone is basically just waiting for wenger to leave. The sooner it happens the sooner we can all just move on, and get a bit of passion into this club
posted on 2/3/18
Interestingly, Wenger fortuitously met David Dein while coming to watch Graham (Wenger wasn't some Arsenal fan). He once said of Graham:
“I used to watch Arsenal because I felt I could learn much from how he [Graham] organised his team tactically. I wasn’t the only young European coach to think that way.”
Of course, everyone knew Graham's ability as an defensive organizer, but the most underrated legacy of his era is the financial stability he gave the club. Arsenal were mired in losses, debt and mediocrity when Graham arrived. The club had won 1 league title since 1953 and spent good time in mid-table. Graham built a title-winning squad despite turning a net transfer profit after buying mostly obscure players. The crowds came back to Highbury. By '95, when he left in disgrace, Arsenal were in great financial shape that Wenger would profit from, apart from profiting from Graham's back 5. You can read a decent account here:
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/what-did-george-graham-ever-do-arsene-wenger-heres-what
It's just surprising to me how underrated Graham's legacy is. I don't know if it is recency bias, Graham's admittedly drab football, or the scandal that ended his Arsenal career which is responsible for this.
posted on 2/3/18
"Graham's last 3 seasons had a UEFA CWC win, an FA Cup and a League Cup. And the club finished 4th in his last league finish. The decline was not nearly as dramatic as you make out, even though there was clear decline from the heady days of lifting the title."
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Are you kidding? We were almost in a relegation battle when he was sacked (a battle that ended with us 6 points above the bloody relegation zone. From a CWC the previous season, to barely surviving and the unravelled mess that was Paul Merson and his own shady dealings, that was fall from grace as steep as they come.
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"The guy won 6 major trophies in 8 years, including 2 entirely unexpected league titles. I don't see how that is less impressive than Wenger's record."
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And Wenger won 7 in his first 8 years. You're going to use the fact that Wenger wasn't awful enough or shady enough to get sacked against him in a head-to-head? I'd get your stance if it was an undeserved Abramovic-esque type sacking (Ancelotti, Mourinho 1st time), but we hadn't been close to a title in 4 seasons, the club was rife with ill-discipline, drugs and addicts and the man had Arsenal football club in a facking relegation battle for crying out loud. On what planet does doing that and getting pushed make you better than Wenger?
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"including 2 entirely unexpected league titles."
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I don't begrudge him those titles, but if we're giving him credit for that, he deserves equal levels of criticism for failing to even put up a challenge in two seasons in which we entered as favourites (91/92 and the first premier league season in which we finished fecking 10th).
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"Saying you don't give a crap about the established Sky 4 ignores important context. There has never been a time in league history as in the past 2 decades when a group of 4/5 clubs consistently finished in the top 4."
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Fair enough, but Wenger was a major part of establishing Arsenal as part of that. Whilst that status quo never existed in the Graham era, he was still leading the third most prestigious and the third richest club at the time, so let's not pretend he was this hugely hamstrung pauper battling upstream.
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"There was nothing "comfortable" about our top 3 in prestige that you claim. Arsenal hadn't won the title since '70/71 when Graham came and their league finishes where 7th, 7th, 6th, 10th and barely 10 years earlier, finished as low as 17th."
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So let me get this straight, Graham is getting credit for turning around a team that 10 years prior (and one or two player similar (David O'Leary I believe) finished 17th, but you're not doing the same for Wenger who took a team that finished 6 points away from relegation 3 years prior to the title in his forst full season?
I expect you to reply by going on about " had he left in his first 8 years". But he didn't, because he was horrific enough to get sacked after banking the credit. How awful do you have to be to get firred after what Graham had accomplished? I'm not sure how getting sacked for taking bungs, presiding over a relegation scrap and a veritable asylum makes you a hero, but I guess we have different standards.
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"When Graham arrived, he plucked Dixon and Bould from lower-division Stoke, Winterburn from newly promoted Wimbledon and brought in Seaman, building the very same back 5 that gave Wenger his initial success. Compare that to the mess of a legacy Wenger will leave behind."
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I can't believe I'm saying this, but Wenger will be leaving behind a club that has the financial might to compete at the upper end of the transfer spectrum (if not the very top given the investment in the game). We're able to pay ridiculous wages to top players and that's a direct result of a lot of Wenger's work. In theory that should hold a successor in good stead.
Yeah, Graham's back four were superb and a large part of Wenger's early success and a great legacy, but again, Graham had these men and took them to fighting for their premier league lives. It took Arsene Wenger and his acute knowledge of the foregin market to sort the absolute train wreck that Graham;s negligence had left behind. We were in afar worse position than we are now when he left carrying such stalwarts as Glenn Helder, Vince Bartrum and Ian Selley.
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"Again, it is very easy to make a case for Graham. Nothing "emotional" about that. The fact you think it's so set in stone that it is indisputable is exactly my problem."
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Under no measure is a shady bung taker who, in his last three years at the club, played diabolical football and had the team fighting addiction, relegation and each other, arguably better than a manager with far more expansive accomplishments.
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"Graham's bung is irrelevant here. I'm comparing their footballing legacies and ability as managers."
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It absolutely is. While he was taking bungs, his team was falling apart, affecting the on-field product and his ability to control it. Graham was struggling to compete with footballing masterminds like Phil Neal, Gerry Francis and Joe Kinnear. Give me a break; Wenger has been te better Arsenal manager hands down.
posted on 2/3/18
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Wenger Till I Die (U7482)
posted 15 minutes ago
Interestingly, Wenger fortuitously met David Dein while coming to watch Graham (Wenger wasn't some Arsenal fan). He once said of Graham:
“I used to watch Arsenal because I felt I could learn much from how he [Graham] organised his team tactically. I wasn’t the only young European coach to think that way.”
Of course, everyone knew Graham's ability as an defensive organizer, but the most underrated legacy of his era is the financial stability he gave the club. Arsenal were mired in losses, debt and mediocrity when Graham arrived. The club had won 1 league title since 1953 and spent good time in mid-table. Graham built a title-winning squad despite turning a net transfer profit after buying mostly obscure players. The crowds came back to Highbury. By '95, when he left in disgrace, Arsenal were in great financial shape that Wenger would profit from, apart from profiting from Graham's back 5. You can read a decent account here:
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/what-did-george-graham-ever-do-arsene-wenger-heres-what
It's just surprising to me how underrated Graham's legacy is. I don't know if it is recency bias, Graham's admittedly drab football, or the scandal that ended his Arsenal career which is responsible for this.
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I think George Graham is a great and one of the great British managers; he's basically the reason I'm an Arsenal fan (through signing Ian Wright at a time when I knew nothing of institutions and followed only personalities). I'd never underestimate his legacy and a lot of what I'm saying in this debate is to argue a point, but, as great as his legacy is, it's hurt by getting sacked, by presiding over chaos and a relegation scrap and allowing his focus to stray. He's still an Arsenal great and will forever be an Arsenal legend, but he quite simply is not a better Arsenal manager than Wenger - despite the utter farce that Wenger's reign has become.
posted on 2/3/18
I can't believe I'm saying this, but Wenger will be leaving behind a club that has the financial might to compete at the upper end of the transfer spectrum (if not the very top given the investment in the game). We're able to pay ridiculous wages to top players and that's a direct result of a lot of Wenger's work. In theory that should hold a successor in good stead.
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We're not gonna agree on much of the other points, so this is the one I chose to tackle. Wenger's contribution to our financial status is easily the most overrated part of his legacy. The way people talk about it at times, it's almost like he was the sole or even the main driver of the vision. Spurs are doing the same thing and no one would claim it is because of Pochettino. The reality is Arsenal were sleeping giants for decades. Arsenal happens to be the biggest club in London, the biggest city in Europe and one of the world's great financial capitals. There was massive potential to exploit this which was hindered by the capacity of Highbury. We are in great financial situation, but so are all the other original Sky 4, and now City, and imminently Tottenham too.
You've spoken about the massive league position yoyoing under Graham compared to Wenger, but as I've said, except you were a Liverpool in the era (that lot finished either 1st or 2nd an astonishing 18 times in 19 years between '72 and '91) the rest of the division saw very unstable results. Fergie with Man U finished 11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th, 6th before he won his first title in '93 despite being the top spender of the era. You're making a very unfair comparison of that era with the Sky 4 era. I do not regard Wenger's top 4 consistency as a basis of his superiority to Graham. Peculiar circumstances have allowed a few clubs to consolidate their dominance over others in this era and that is what Wenger profited from. That is appropriate context when talking about Graham taking us to the bottom half of the table.
posted on 2/3/18
Well said and written chaps, informative and insider knowledge there but by fck the length and depth of those posts is surely beyond most drunken readers? 🤔 😂 😂
posted on 2/3/18
"Wenger's contribution to our financial status is easily the most overrated part of his legacy."
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I actually agree that his contribution is overstated, however, he has been a major contributor. Sure, he's benefitted from extraneous variables, but the fact is, he's been the one driving the ship and driving the ship with the tightest purse strings in that time. I'm by no means saying what he did is astounding (I think he underachieved on the field), but the fact remains, despite the underachievement, he did do a good job in that time.The reality of Arsenal being sleeping giants and a great location were all true during Graham's time in charge too.
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"I do not regard Wenger's top 4 consistency as a basis of his superiority to Graham."
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And neither do I, but it's a certainly a contributing factor. Not only did Wenger outperform him in his first 8 years (three league titles and no finish below 2nd for a club that hadn't finished in the top 2 for the 7 years before he came and were in a relegation battle 2 years before his arrival), he also wasn't deservedly sacked for woefulness. As poor as the 2nd half of Wenger's tenure has been (in relative terms), and as many embarrassments as he'd presided over, he's never even come close to what Graham oversaw in 94.
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"Peculiar circumstances have allowed a few clubs to consolidate their dominance over others in this era and that is what Wenger profited from. That is appropriate context when talking about Graham taking us to the bottom half of the table."
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I strongly disagree. It was very much his own doing. His tactics became antiquated, his recruitment bizarre and his focus non-existant. That he allowed this to happen to a club he professes to love, is a complete disgrace and rightly used against him.
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On an unrelated side note:
"Liverpool in the era (that lot finished either 1st or 2nd an astonishing 18 times in 19 years between '72 and '91)"
And the season they didn't finish top 2 (they finished 5th in 81) they went on to conquer Europe. Utterly phenomenal stretch of sustained success that.
posted on 2/3/18
On an unrelated side note:
"Liverpool in the era (that lot finished either 1st or 2nd an astonishing 18 times in 19 years between '72 and '91)"
And the season they didn't finish top 2 (they finished 5th in 81) they went on to conquer Europe. Utterly phenomenal stretch of sustained success that.
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Agreed. Never happening again for them though.
Think I'm gonna go to sleep......
posted on 2/3/18
Very probably isn't happening again for anyone, to be fair!
I should really get my head down too. Adios, my man.
posted on 2/3/18
Didn't Liverpool finished 7th or 8th few seasons back?
posted on 2/3/18
despite being the top spender of the era.
.....
SAF netspend from 1986 to 1998 was £4m.
posted on 2/3/18
This is where Wenger leaves and you 'll wish he hasn't in 3 years time.
Believe it or not there were United fans wbo thought Fergie was dome for 2 or 3 seasons before retirement.
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