comment by Ed The King Woodward (U10026)
posted 1 minute ago
So it's not that simple that the team who wins the Europa is always winning Champions League qualification in the process.
———
Of course it is. It supercedes any league qualification process because you automatically join in the group stages and join pot one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think you're confused. That's qualification for the season after, not for the next season. I'm saying that if you finish 5th or 6th in England, you should have the chance to play in the Champions League the next season.
It’s for the next season. Win the Europa and you are in the CL group stages. That’s it.
There’s an argument for having 5th and 6th in the CL on the basis of quality, but it’s overkill. It becomes even more dominated by the bigger leagues than it already is.
I think the CL is fine as it is. So do the clubs in the prem as well.
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Wahl Might (U22137)
posted 12 minutes ago
The thing is I'm sure people back when they first changed the champions league to accommodate 3rd and 4th place teams would have said the same thing some people have said on this thread. Yet it happened and the CL is stronger for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’d argue it isn’t. It’s just done exactly what we would deserve with the next step. Driven all the other clubs further away and hence losing real competition. The financial gap is ridiculous now. Where does it end?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's just the way it goes man. It's not like keeping these teams in the Champions League is doing teams in Smaller Leagues a lot of good. It's not like the gaps getting smaller. If anything, aren't most of the smaller leagues dominated by one team anyway because that team's always getting to play in the Champions league?
It’s for the next season. Win the Europa and you are in the CL group stages. That’s it.
---------
Well no.
If you finish 5th or 6th in season 1, you play in Europa in season 2. If you win the Europa OR finish top 4, you play in the CL in season 3. There is no way to play in the CL in season 2.
I want a way for a team to finish 5th or 6th in season 1 and still have a chance to play in the CL in season 2.
It becomes even more dominated by the bigger leagues than it already is.
-----------------------------------
Macaroni dude said its about balance and I agree. I think the gap has widened though between the top leagues, especially the PL, and the rest and the balance needs to be changed to reflect that.
comment by Ed The King Woodward (U10026)
posted 3 minutes ago
It’s for the next season. Win the Europa and you are in the CL group stages. That’s it.
There’s an argument for having 5th and 6th in the CL on the basis of quality, but it’s overkill. It becomes even more dominated by the bigger leagues than it already is.
I think the CL is fine as it is. So do the clubs in the prem as well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's not exactly true as some of the clubs are looking to form the kind of European super league that wahl is looking for.
Agree that having 5th and 6th would be overkill though. You have to draw the line somewhere and with the amount of money that is consistently coming into the PL, we may well be arguing the merits of having 8 teams in 5 years time.
Doesn’t help balance the gap between those lragues and the likes of France, Russia, Portugal, Netherlands Ukraine, though. And they are the next tier down. It makes more sense to increase their representation in the CL than increase the prems.
comment by Wahl Might (U22137)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Wahl Might (U22137)
posted 12 minutes ago
The thing is I'm sure people back when they first changed the champions league to accommodate 3rd and 4th place teams would have said the same thing some people have said on this thread. Yet it happened and the CL is stronger for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’d argue it isn’t. It’s just done exactly what we would deserve with the next step. Driven all the other clubs further away and hence losing real competition. The financial gap is ridiculous now. Where does it end?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's just the way it goes man. It's not like keeping these teams in the Champions League is doing teams in Smaller Leagues a lot of good. It's not like the gaps getting smaller. If anything, aren't most of the smaller leagues dominated by one team anyway because that team's always getting to play in the Champions league?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the term “that’s just the way it goes” sums up the entire approach of UEFA and FIFA. You know; the ones who had a final in Baku?
It makes more sense to increase their representation in the CL than increase the prems.
-------------------------
In what way?
The prem clubs aren’t, though. Hence why they oppose the changes to the CL that Uefa have proposed which are more akin to a super league.
It’s clubs from poorer leagues than the prem that want it, mainly Italy. But there’s never been enough support for a super league from the clubs, hence why it’s never happened despite being mooted for decades.
Because it would help raise the standards of those leagues due to more money going into the league. Having a bigger spread of European teams and improved standards from those leagues would be better for the competition as well.
I find the idea there's a 'correct balance' funny considering the fact that the qualification rules have changed which shows that the balance changes with the times.
comment by Ed The King Woodward (U10026)
posted 4 minutes ago
Because it would help raise the standards of those leagues due to more money going into the league. Having a bigger spread of European teams and improved standards from those leagues would be better for the competition as well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But the point is that the English teams are already good enough to play in the CL whereas you're talking about these teams potentially getting better and being good enough.
Maybe it is a slippery slope though. But wasn't 4 teams from one country seen as too much at one point?
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 36 minutes ago
comment by Wahl Might (U22137)
posted 12 minutes ago
The thing is I'm sure people back when they first changed the champions league to accommodate 3rd and 4th place teams would have said the same thing some people have said on this thread. Yet it happened and the CL is stronger for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’d argue it isn’t. It’s just done exactly what we would deserve with the next step. Driven all the other clubs further away and hence losing real competition. The financial gap is ridiculous now. Where does it end?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The financial gap wasn't created by the CL. The CL changes were created by the financial gap.
Some of them already are when you consider the shiiiiiit that can get into pot 4. And it’s not just about rewarding the teams that are already good, but increasing the level of the competition on a broader scale. Plus at what point do you draw the line? 8 prem teams in the cl? 10? Because that’s the road you go down using your argument.
I don’t think it needs changing, to be honest. But it there is something that does need changing it’s to help increase the quality of the middling leagues, not the best and richest already.
And it’s not just about rewarding the teams that are already good, but increasing the level of the competition on a broader scale.
-----------------------
Ideally maybe but I doubt that would happen in practice. The Premier League has 6 CL level teams not because of how many CL slots they were given but because of the money that was put into the league. Giving more slots to other leagues wouldn't yield the same result.
The prem definitely benefited from the increased CL slots because it brought more money into the league and outside investment as a result.
You wouldn’t get the same results from the leagues I’ve mentioned because there’s more to growth of a league than just CL slots. But there’s opportunity to improve from their current level with it.
comment by Ed The King Woodward (U10026)
posted 2 minutes ago
The prem definitely benefited from the increased CL slots because it brought more money into the league and outside investment as a result.
You wouldn’t get the same results from the leagues I’ve mentioned because there’s more to growth of a league than just CL slots. But there’s opportunity to improve from their current level with it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wouldn't it make more sense to work on the lowest level leagues than the middle level then considering that?
Also, what about if you looked at it from another way. Having the 5th and 6th place teams in the Europa League when they are clearly better than the majority of teams in that competition - is that fair? You're putting CL level teams in the Europa League and they're dominating the competition. Shouldn't something be done about that?
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 1 hour, 7 minutes ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 36 minutes ago
comment by Wahl Might (U22137)
posted 12 minutes ago
The thing is I'm sure people back when they first changed the champions league to accommodate 3rd and 4th place teams would have said the same thing some people have said on this thread. Yet it happened and the CL is stronger for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’d argue it isn’t. It’s just done exactly what we would deserve with the next step. Driven all the other clubs further away and hence losing real competition. The financial gap is ridiculous now. Where does it end?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The financial gap wasn't created by the CL. The CL changes were created by the financial gap.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Acknowledged but let’s not kid on that the CL is not significantly helping to increase the gap.
The EPL was brilliantly marketed by the pay per view channels at the right time and took full advantage of it. No complaints at that at all. That’s where the gap started.
Possibly, but I was making the point in regard to the top tier teams.
comment by Ed The King Woodward (U10026)
posted 3 minutes ago
Possibly, but I was making the point in regard to the top tier teams.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s the thing, it’s the prem’s domestic market is what has been its biggest success, and why the tv rights are so huge.
The CL has had an impact on that, both domestically and internationally, but it’s obviously not the deciding factor otherwise Spain, Germany and Italy would be in similar situations.
A lot changed around the end of the 80s beginning of the 90s that made the old European Cup format defunct.
From the English club European ban that led the clubs to find a way of strengthening the domestic game, Sky TV, to political changes such as EU rules banishing the foreigner rule, break ups of Russia and Yugoslavia (and others) meaning more leagues and thus more clubs in European competition.
The question now is whether the gap is too big, and whether a European competition is worthwhile in the current format. Looking at the Nations League, and you wonder if different levels is the natural way forward.
DJ
People always ignore the changes in the political landscape when talking about European football.
You think that the likes of AC Milan and Barca were already full of foreign (Dutch) stars, the abolishing of the foreigner rule was always going to make them stronger and smaller league champions would suffer.
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Does the Premier League deserve 6 CL places
Page 7 of 8
6 | 7 | 8
posted on 5/6/19
comment by Ed The King Woodward (U10026)
posted 1 minute ago
So it's not that simple that the team who wins the Europa is always winning Champions League qualification in the process.
———
Of course it is. It supercedes any league qualification process because you automatically join in the group stages and join pot one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think you're confused. That's qualification for the season after, not for the next season. I'm saying that if you finish 5th or 6th in England, you should have the chance to play in the Champions League the next season.
posted on 5/6/19
It’s for the next season. Win the Europa and you are in the CL group stages. That’s it.
There’s an argument for having 5th and 6th in the CL on the basis of quality, but it’s overkill. It becomes even more dominated by the bigger leagues than it already is.
I think the CL is fine as it is. So do the clubs in the prem as well.
posted on 5/6/19
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Wahl Might (U22137)
posted 12 minutes ago
The thing is I'm sure people back when they first changed the champions league to accommodate 3rd and 4th place teams would have said the same thing some people have said on this thread. Yet it happened and the CL is stronger for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’d argue it isn’t. It’s just done exactly what we would deserve with the next step. Driven all the other clubs further away and hence losing real competition. The financial gap is ridiculous now. Where does it end?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's just the way it goes man. It's not like keeping these teams in the Champions League is doing teams in Smaller Leagues a lot of good. It's not like the gaps getting smaller. If anything, aren't most of the smaller leagues dominated by one team anyway because that team's always getting to play in the Champions league?
posted on 5/6/19
It’s for the next season. Win the Europa and you are in the CL group stages. That’s it.
---------
Well no.
If you finish 5th or 6th in season 1, you play in Europa in season 2. If you win the Europa OR finish top 4, you play in the CL in season 3. There is no way to play in the CL in season 2.
I want a way for a team to finish 5th or 6th in season 1 and still have a chance to play in the CL in season 2.
posted on 5/6/19
It becomes even more dominated by the bigger leagues than it already is.
-----------------------------------
Macaroni dude said its about balance and I agree. I think the gap has widened though between the top leagues, especially the PL, and the rest and the balance needs to be changed to reflect that.
posted on 5/6/19
comment by Ed The King Woodward (U10026)
posted 3 minutes ago
It’s for the next season. Win the Europa and you are in the CL group stages. That’s it.
There’s an argument for having 5th and 6th in the CL on the basis of quality, but it’s overkill. It becomes even more dominated by the bigger leagues than it already is.
I think the CL is fine as it is. So do the clubs in the prem as well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's not exactly true as some of the clubs are looking to form the kind of European super league that wahl is looking for.
Agree that having 5th and 6th would be overkill though. You have to draw the line somewhere and with the amount of money that is consistently coming into the PL, we may well be arguing the merits of having 8 teams in 5 years time.
posted on 5/6/19
Doesn’t help balance the gap between those lragues and the likes of France, Russia, Portugal, Netherlands Ukraine, though. And they are the next tier down. It makes more sense to increase their representation in the CL than increase the prems.
posted on 5/6/19
comment by Wahl Might (U22137)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Wahl Might (U22137)
posted 12 minutes ago
The thing is I'm sure people back when they first changed the champions league to accommodate 3rd and 4th place teams would have said the same thing some people have said on this thread. Yet it happened and the CL is stronger for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’d argue it isn’t. It’s just done exactly what we would deserve with the next step. Driven all the other clubs further away and hence losing real competition. The financial gap is ridiculous now. Where does it end?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's just the way it goes man. It's not like keeping these teams in the Champions League is doing teams in Smaller Leagues a lot of good. It's not like the gaps getting smaller. If anything, aren't most of the smaller leagues dominated by one team anyway because that team's always getting to play in the Champions league?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the term “that’s just the way it goes” sums up the entire approach of UEFA and FIFA. You know; the ones who had a final in Baku?
posted on 5/6/19
It makes more sense to increase their representation in the CL than increase the prems.
-------------------------
In what way?
posted on 5/6/19
The prem clubs aren’t, though. Hence why they oppose the changes to the CL that Uefa have proposed which are more akin to a super league.
It’s clubs from poorer leagues than the prem that want it, mainly Italy. But there’s never been enough support for a super league from the clubs, hence why it’s never happened despite being mooted for decades.
posted on 5/6/19
Because it would help raise the standards of those leagues due to more money going into the league. Having a bigger spread of European teams and improved standards from those leagues would be better for the competition as well.
posted on 5/6/19
I find the idea there's a 'correct balance' funny considering the fact that the qualification rules have changed which shows that the balance changes with the times.
posted on 5/6/19
comment by Ed The King Woodward (U10026)
posted 4 minutes ago
Because it would help raise the standards of those leagues due to more money going into the league. Having a bigger spread of European teams and improved standards from those leagues would be better for the competition as well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But the point is that the English teams are already good enough to play in the CL whereas you're talking about these teams potentially getting better and being good enough.
Maybe it is a slippery slope though. But wasn't 4 teams from one country seen as too much at one point?
posted on 5/6/19
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 36 minutes ago
comment by Wahl Might (U22137)
posted 12 minutes ago
The thing is I'm sure people back when they first changed the champions league to accommodate 3rd and 4th place teams would have said the same thing some people have said on this thread. Yet it happened and the CL is stronger for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’d argue it isn’t. It’s just done exactly what we would deserve with the next step. Driven all the other clubs further away and hence losing real competition. The financial gap is ridiculous now. Where does it end?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The financial gap wasn't created by the CL. The CL changes were created by the financial gap.
posted on 5/6/19
Some of them already are when you consider the shiiiiiit that can get into pot 4. And it’s not just about rewarding the teams that are already good, but increasing the level of the competition on a broader scale. Plus at what point do you draw the line? 8 prem teams in the cl? 10? Because that’s the road you go down using your argument.
I don’t think it needs changing, to be honest. But it there is something that does need changing it’s to help increase the quality of the middling leagues, not the best and richest already.
posted on 5/6/19
And it’s not just about rewarding the teams that are already good, but increasing the level of the competition on a broader scale.
-----------------------
Ideally maybe but I doubt that would happen in practice. The Premier League has 6 CL level teams not because of how many CL slots they were given but because of the money that was put into the league. Giving more slots to other leagues wouldn't yield the same result.
posted on 5/6/19
The prem definitely benefited from the increased CL slots because it brought more money into the league and outside investment as a result.
You wouldn’t get the same results from the leagues I’ve mentioned because there’s more to growth of a league than just CL slots. But there’s opportunity to improve from their current level with it.
posted on 5/6/19
comment by Ed The King Woodward (U10026)
posted 2 minutes ago
The prem definitely benefited from the increased CL slots because it brought more money into the league and outside investment as a result.
You wouldn’t get the same results from the leagues I’ve mentioned because there’s more to growth of a league than just CL slots. But there’s opportunity to improve from their current level with it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wouldn't it make more sense to work on the lowest level leagues than the middle level then considering that?
Also, what about if you looked at it from another way. Having the 5th and 6th place teams in the Europa League when they are clearly better than the majority of teams in that competition - is that fair? You're putting CL level teams in the Europa League and they're dominating the competition. Shouldn't something be done about that?
posted on 5/6/19
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 1 hour, 7 minutes ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 36 minutes ago
comment by Wahl Might (U22137)
posted 12 minutes ago
The thing is I'm sure people back when they first changed the champions league to accommodate 3rd and 4th place teams would have said the same thing some people have said on this thread. Yet it happened and the CL is stronger for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’d argue it isn’t. It’s just done exactly what we would deserve with the next step. Driven all the other clubs further away and hence losing real competition. The financial gap is ridiculous now. Where does it end?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The financial gap wasn't created by the CL. The CL changes were created by the financial gap.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Acknowledged but let’s not kid on that the CL is not significantly helping to increase the gap.
The EPL was brilliantly marketed by the pay per view channels at the right time and took full advantage of it. No complaints at that at all. That’s where the gap started.
posted on 5/6/19
Possibly, but I was making the point in regard to the top tier teams.
posted on 5/6/19
comment by Ed The King Woodward (U10026)
posted 3 minutes ago
Possibly, but I was making the point in regard to the top tier teams.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 5/6/19
That’s the thing, it’s the prem’s domestic market is what has been its biggest success, and why the tv rights are so huge.
The CL has had an impact on that, both domestically and internationally, but it’s obviously not the deciding factor otherwise Spain, Germany and Italy would be in similar situations.
posted on 5/6/19
A lot changed around the end of the 80s beginning of the 90s that made the old European Cup format defunct.
From the English club European ban that led the clubs to find a way of strengthening the domestic game, Sky TV, to political changes such as EU rules banishing the foreigner rule, break ups of Russia and Yugoslavia (and others) meaning more leagues and thus more clubs in European competition.
The question now is whether the gap is too big, and whether a European competition is worthwhile in the current format. Looking at the Nations League, and you wonder if different levels is the natural way forward.
posted on 5/6/19
DJ
People always ignore the changes in the political landscape when talking about European football.
posted on 5/6/19
You think that the likes of AC Milan and Barca were already full of foreign (Dutch) stars, the abolishing of the foreigner rule was always going to make them stronger and smaller league champions would suffer.
Page 7 of 8
6 | 7 | 8