Comment deleted by Site Moderator
To me he's like Eddie Howe. Eddie Howe was never able to improve his defence at Bournemouth through his 6 years in the PL, and look where it eventually got him.
Good article, pretty much where I'm at
Is there any evidence he can push on & fix the persistent issues even with a fully fit squad? No, patterns are emerging & there's no body of work to look back on to inspire belief or expel doubts.
Does he deserve the opportunity to fix these issues with nothing but faith to cling to & build up experience in the process? IMO yes, there's positives to point to aswell (just easier to refer to the negatives), and he's a very smart guy in general.
I do have concerns, but you won't hear any sort of Lampard out talk from me until after game 38 unless something goes seriously wrong before then.
comment by Sideshow (U11809)
posted 8 minutes ago
Defensive problems are just the symptom. It is an overall lack of structure on and off the ball which is contributing to our miraculously disappearing midfield, the resultant attack vs defence scenarios and our inability to control games/sustain pressure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't disagree, but he has to get rid of the symptoms.
We looked so much more assured against Palace with Thiago Silva and Mendy, although it’s not a good sign that we need those two players to be solid defensively.
Then again it’s also not Lampard’s fault that the pre-existing set of keepers and defenders weren’t of the required standard.
Then again it’s also not Lampard’s fault that the pre-existing set of keepers and defenders weren’t of the required standard.
-------------------------------------------------------
True, but Sarri's proof that the particular issues Lampard has defensively are structural. Luiz, Rudiger & Alonso's an extremely shaky three to have as a back 4 & Sarri got them operating as a passable unit with the odd glaring exceptions (Bournemouth/City away).
Sideshow's right about the issue stemming from midfield. IMO he's kind of stuck between wanting to play a full 4231 gegen which eliminates the need for a structural midfield shape, and compensating for the fact he knows the defense aren't strong enough to maintain that. Sarri eliminated the problem all together by compressing the midfield starting the press deeper.
If he finds a solution to that imbalance he's gone a long way to addressing the underling issues he has tactically.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
The frequent gaps between midfield and defence are something that Lampard should be correcting. I suppose any defender’s bound to make mistakes when they regularly find themselves in 1v1 situations with people running beyond them etc
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
433 w/Jorginho or Gilmour is the best we've looked under Lampard IMO. 433 w/Kante is a mixed bag, and the two #8's idea I'm not a fan of.
I'm 99% sure Lampard's pref is 4231 though.
comment by Devil (U6522)
posted 7 minutes ago
433 w/Jorginho or Gilmour is the best we've looked under Lampard IMO. 433 w/Kante is a mixed bag, and the two #8's idea I'm not a fan of.
I'm 99% sure Lampard's pref is 4231 though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Given that he has loaned out both RLC and Barkley, I suspect you are right.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Arsenal fan here, hoping Lampard stays for a while. I personally don't think he's shown anything to suggest he'll take you to where your squad should have you.
That said, surely you knew it was a project when you got him so surely you've got to give him the time and opportunity to prove himself? Your squad is pretty young so won't be collectively peaking for another 2-3 years, so giving him time might not be too detrimental in the meantime.
comment by TBaggerin (U11806)
posted 3 hours, 21 minutes ago
Arsenal fan here, hoping Lampard stays for a while. I personally don't think he's shown anything to suggest he'll take you to where your squad should have you.
That said, surely you knew it was a project when you got him so surely you've got to give him the time and opportunity to prove himself? Your squad is pretty young so won't be collectively peaking for another 2-3 years, so giving him time might not be too detrimental in the meantime.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's is my point. We knew what we were getting and we knew the risks. Bar a total mess up on his part, he deserves this season in full to show if he has what it takes.
I feel this is a job that's come way too early in Lampard's managerial career. Managers like Guardiola and Zidane are exceptions to the rule. In general, top managers take years to develop their style of play before they become successful.
On the face of it, the issues we see with our defence look like individual errors but the reality is that Lampard hasn't figured out a style of play that balances all the elements he wants to see in his side (ball progression from the back, a fluid attack with forward thinking fullbacks, pressing high from the front).
The lack of compactness is the clearest problem with our play at the moment. When we press, the midfield pushes forward but the defensive line doesn't follow suit. When we attack, both full backs and a centre mid bomb forward creating huge gaps in the centre of the pitch that leave us extremely vulnerable to turnovers (at least one full back needs to be tucking in as a spare defensive man). A result of these issues is that a competent manager can systemically take us apart and any mistake a player makes can get ruthlessly punished as we simply don't have the numbers back to compensate.
For an example of our completely non-existent defensive structure look at this sequence of play when we press Southampton:
https://mobile.twitter.com/nomifooty/status/1317538396735217665
A well marshalled side doesn't leave this much space between the defence and midfield. It's schoolboy tactics.
comment by minididi (U17584)
posted 3 hours, 40 minutes ago
I feel this is a job that's come way too early in Lampard's managerial career. Managers like Guardiola and Zidane are exceptions to the rule. In general, top managers take years to develop their style of play before they become successful.
On the face of it, the issues we see with our defence look like individual errors but the reality is that Lampard hasn't figured out a style of play that balances all the elements he wants to see in his side (ball progression from the back, a fluid attack with forward thinking fullbacks, pressing high from the front).
The lack of compactness is the clearest problem with our play at the moment. When we press, the midfield pushes forward but the defensive line doesn't follow suit. When we attack, both full backs and a centre mid bomb forward creating huge gaps in the centre of the pitch that leave us extremely vulnerable to turnovers (at least one full back needs to be tucking in as a spare defensive man). A result of these issues is that a competent manager can systemically take us apart and any mistake a player makes can get ruthlessly punished as we simply don't have the numbers back to compensate.
For an example of our completely non-existent defensive structure look at this sequence of play when we press Southampton:
https://mobile.twitter.com/nomifooty/status/1317538396735217665
A well marshalled side doesn't leave this much space between the defence and midfield. It's schoolboy tactics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good post
I feel this is a job that's come way too early in Lampard's managerial career. Managers like Guardiola and Zidane are exceptions to the rule. In general, top managers take years to develop their style of play before they become successful
-------------------------------
Not sure that it's always the case that managers take years to develop their style or to become successful. Mourino won the Uefa Cup and then the CL with Porto only a couple of years into his managerial career. And then at Nagelsmann in Germany.
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 8 hours, 9 minutes ago
comment by TBaggerin (U11806)
posted 3 hours, 21 minutes ago
Arsenal fan here, hoping Lampard stays for a while. I personally don't think he's shown anything to suggest he'll take you to where your squad should have you.
That said, surely you knew it was a project when you got him so surely you've got to give him the time and opportunity to prove himself? Your squad is pretty young so won't be collectively peaking for another 2-3 years, so giving him time might not be too detrimental in the meantime.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's is my point. We knew what we were getting and we knew the risks. Bar a total mess up on his part, he deserves this season in full to show if he has what it takes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly he deserves at least this season to show what he can do when he finally has all or at least most of his new signings available, something that he hasn't had so far this season apart from the Palace game where we won 4-0.
And overall Lampard has done well as manager here even if a segment of our fans spit their dummies out whenever we don't win. The fact is we're only a few games into the season and only once have we come even close to being able to start our best 11.
I'll be making my judgements on Lampard at the end of the season when he's been able to at least play most of our best players on a consistent basis. And when we're not playing the worst keeper (by far) in the league nearly every game as well like we have been doing so far this season.
We knew what the score was when we took him on.
As far as I'm aware everyone was onboard with it at the time, happy about bringing in the kids and looking at a long term project - 18 months on that seems all but forgotten!
I agree with what Superb said, and that it is still early days yet but we also need to recognise quickly that we can't keep regularly conceding 3 goals in lots of games and expect to win them. Going forward we look good but there is a fragility about us at the back that looks like that at 94+ minutes when winning we'll still easily let one in.
Our defence hasnt really had time to compete as a finished unit, Tomori got injured just as he was starting to look good(liverpool game) Silva was just getting used to pl and had to go play for Brazil(come on brazil hes to old for that schitt) Mendy already injured, Gilmour out injured when he was starting to look the real deal.because of ridiculous european schedule.
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We can do better than have Lampard
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posted on 17/10/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 17/10/20
To me he's like Eddie Howe. Eddie Howe was never able to improve his defence at Bournemouth through his 6 years in the PL, and look where it eventually got him.
posted on 17/10/20
Good article, pretty much where I'm at
Is there any evidence he can push on & fix the persistent issues even with a fully fit squad? No, patterns are emerging & there's no body of work to look back on to inspire belief or expel doubts.
Does he deserve the opportunity to fix these issues with nothing but faith to cling to & build up experience in the process? IMO yes, there's positives to point to aswell (just easier to refer to the negatives), and he's a very smart guy in general.
I do have concerns, but you won't hear any sort of Lampard out talk from me until after game 38 unless something goes seriously wrong before then.
posted on 17/10/20
comment by Sideshow (U11809)
posted 8 minutes ago
Defensive problems are just the symptom. It is an overall lack of structure on and off the ball which is contributing to our miraculously disappearing midfield, the resultant attack vs defence scenarios and our inability to control games/sustain pressure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't disagree, but he has to get rid of the symptoms.
posted on 17/10/20
We looked so much more assured against Palace with Thiago Silva and Mendy, although it’s not a good sign that we need those two players to be solid defensively.
Then again it’s also not Lampard’s fault that the pre-existing set of keepers and defenders weren’t of the required standard.
posted on 17/10/20
Then again it’s also not Lampard’s fault that the pre-existing set of keepers and defenders weren’t of the required standard.
-------------------------------------------------------
True, but Sarri's proof that the particular issues Lampard has defensively are structural. Luiz, Rudiger & Alonso's an extremely shaky three to have as a back 4 & Sarri got them operating as a passable unit with the odd glaring exceptions (Bournemouth/City away).
Sideshow's right about the issue stemming from midfield. IMO he's kind of stuck between wanting to play a full 4231 gegen which eliminates the need for a structural midfield shape, and compensating for the fact he knows the defense aren't strong enough to maintain that. Sarri eliminated the problem all together by compressing the midfield starting the press deeper.
If he finds a solution to that imbalance he's gone a long way to addressing the underling issues he has tactically.
posted on 17/10/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 17/10/20
The frequent gaps between midfield and defence are something that Lampard should be correcting. I suppose any defender’s bound to make mistakes when they regularly find themselves in 1v1 situations with people running beyond them etc
posted on 17/10/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 17/10/20
433 w/Jorginho or Gilmour is the best we've looked under Lampard IMO. 433 w/Kante is a mixed bag, and the two #8's idea I'm not a fan of.
I'm 99% sure Lampard's pref is 4231 though.
posted on 17/10/20
comment by Devil (U6522)
posted 7 minutes ago
433 w/Jorginho or Gilmour is the best we've looked under Lampard IMO. 433 w/Kante is a mixed bag, and the two #8's idea I'm not a fan of.
I'm 99% sure Lampard's pref is 4231 though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Given that he has loaned out both RLC and Barkley, I suspect you are right.
posted on 17/10/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 17/10/20
Arsenal fan here, hoping Lampard stays for a while. I personally don't think he's shown anything to suggest he'll take you to where your squad should have you.
That said, surely you knew it was a project when you got him so surely you've got to give him the time and opportunity to prove himself? Your squad is pretty young so won't be collectively peaking for another 2-3 years, so giving him time might not be too detrimental in the meantime.
posted on 18/10/20
comment by TBaggerin (U11806)
posted 3 hours, 21 minutes ago
Arsenal fan here, hoping Lampard stays for a while. I personally don't think he's shown anything to suggest he'll take you to where your squad should have you.
That said, surely you knew it was a project when you got him so surely you've got to give him the time and opportunity to prove himself? Your squad is pretty young so won't be collectively peaking for another 2-3 years, so giving him time might not be too detrimental in the meantime.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's is my point. We knew what we were getting and we knew the risks. Bar a total mess up on his part, he deserves this season in full to show if he has what it takes.
posted on 18/10/20
I feel this is a job that's come way too early in Lampard's managerial career. Managers like Guardiola and Zidane are exceptions to the rule. In general, top managers take years to develop their style of play before they become successful.
On the face of it, the issues we see with our defence look like individual errors but the reality is that Lampard hasn't figured out a style of play that balances all the elements he wants to see in his side (ball progression from the back, a fluid attack with forward thinking fullbacks, pressing high from the front).
The lack of compactness is the clearest problem with our play at the moment. When we press, the midfield pushes forward but the defensive line doesn't follow suit. When we attack, both full backs and a centre mid bomb forward creating huge gaps in the centre of the pitch that leave us extremely vulnerable to turnovers (at least one full back needs to be tucking in as a spare defensive man). A result of these issues is that a competent manager can systemically take us apart and any mistake a player makes can get ruthlessly punished as we simply don't have the numbers back to compensate.
For an example of our completely non-existent defensive structure look at this sequence of play when we press Southampton:
https://mobile.twitter.com/nomifooty/status/1317538396735217665
A well marshalled side doesn't leave this much space between the defence and midfield. It's schoolboy tactics.
posted on 18/10/20
comment by minididi (U17584)
posted 3 hours, 40 minutes ago
I feel this is a job that's come way too early in Lampard's managerial career. Managers like Guardiola and Zidane are exceptions to the rule. In general, top managers take years to develop their style of play before they become successful.
On the face of it, the issues we see with our defence look like individual errors but the reality is that Lampard hasn't figured out a style of play that balances all the elements he wants to see in his side (ball progression from the back, a fluid attack with forward thinking fullbacks, pressing high from the front).
The lack of compactness is the clearest problem with our play at the moment. When we press, the midfield pushes forward but the defensive line doesn't follow suit. When we attack, both full backs and a centre mid bomb forward creating huge gaps in the centre of the pitch that leave us extremely vulnerable to turnovers (at least one full back needs to be tucking in as a spare defensive man). A result of these issues is that a competent manager can systemically take us apart and any mistake a player makes can get ruthlessly punished as we simply don't have the numbers back to compensate.
For an example of our completely non-existent defensive structure look at this sequence of play when we press Southampton:
https://mobile.twitter.com/nomifooty/status/1317538396735217665
A well marshalled side doesn't leave this much space between the defence and midfield. It's schoolboy tactics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good post
posted on 18/10/20
I feel this is a job that's come way too early in Lampard's managerial career. Managers like Guardiola and Zidane are exceptions to the rule. In general, top managers take years to develop their style of play before they become successful
-------------------------------
Not sure that it's always the case that managers take years to develop their style or to become successful. Mourino won the Uefa Cup and then the CL with Porto only a couple of years into his managerial career. And then at Nagelsmann in Germany.
posted on 18/10/20
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 8 hours, 9 minutes ago
comment by TBaggerin (U11806)
posted 3 hours, 21 minutes ago
Arsenal fan here, hoping Lampard stays for a while. I personally don't think he's shown anything to suggest he'll take you to where your squad should have you.
That said, surely you knew it was a project when you got him so surely you've got to give him the time and opportunity to prove himself? Your squad is pretty young so won't be collectively peaking for another 2-3 years, so giving him time might not be too detrimental in the meantime.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's is my point. We knew what we were getting and we knew the risks. Bar a total mess up on his part, he deserves this season in full to show if he has what it takes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly he deserves at least this season to show what he can do when he finally has all or at least most of his new signings available, something that he hasn't had so far this season apart from the Palace game where we won 4-0.
And overall Lampard has done well as manager here even if a segment of our fans spit their dummies out whenever we don't win. The fact is we're only a few games into the season and only once have we come even close to being able to start our best 11.
I'll be making my judgements on Lampard at the end of the season when he's been able to at least play most of our best players on a consistent basis. And when we're not playing the worst keeper (by far) in the league nearly every game as well like we have been doing so far this season.
posted on 18/10/20
We knew what the score was when we took him on.
As far as I'm aware everyone was onboard with it at the time, happy about bringing in the kids and looking at a long term project - 18 months on that seems all but forgotten!
posted on 18/10/20
I agree with what Superb said, and that it is still early days yet but we also need to recognise quickly that we can't keep regularly conceding 3 goals in lots of games and expect to win them. Going forward we look good but there is a fragility about us at the back that looks like that at 94+ minutes when winning we'll still easily let one in.
posted on 18/10/20
Our defence hasnt really had time to compete as a finished unit, Tomori got injured just as he was starting to look good(liverpool game) Silva was just getting used to pl and had to go play for Brazil(come on brazil hes to old for that schitt) Mendy already injured, Gilmour out injured when he was starting to look the real deal.because of ridiculous european schedule.
Page 1 of 1