comment by rosso - it’s not good enough to be right; you have to be effective (U17054)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by rosso - it’s not good enough to be right; you have to be effective (U17054)

One of your latest assertions was that there are “different kinds” of pressure felt depending on the circumstances a side finds itself in. (You are still yet to explain why any such distinction is meaningful.)

Those are distinct claims.

Can I ask you a question? Are you suggesting that there is *more* pressure on the coaching staff and players right now than there was when we were sat 14th in the table with three losses and a win over the previous four league games?
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No, but there's more expectation which can make some choke at the vital moment.
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So there’s more expectation, but no more pressure, but that expectation makes some (players? coaches?) choke.

No, I’m not understanding you, at all.
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It's simply the concept of bottling it. I don't recall teams being accused of bottling a mid-table position. They get accused of bottling a trophy, the title, or top 4.

comment by Christopher (U20930)
posted 5 minutes ago
I read that Germany normal use gnabry or even sane up front and play Werner wide because he isn't very good as a lone striker
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I think that is sometimes the case. Though Lowe is a bit of a clown, so it’s not really a good example to point to.

But it was something mentioned by loads of people when Chelsea signed him. Chelsea’s also a graveyard for big money strikers anyway. So it shouldn’t come as a surprise that he’s another in a long list of flops.

I'd argue the pressure would be at its peak when you're facing the possibility of losing your job, which I'm sure Ole was around the time of the Burnley game at Old Trafford last season.

If we hadn't had such a dramatic turn around in results after that game, I think Ole would've been sacked.

Werner seems to be the biggest problem. He’s not a number 9 like Giroud and Tammy Welbeck. Apparently he’s always struggled as a lone striker, which is why Leipzig used to have someone else up alongside him so he could run off.

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Werner's playing too close to the touchline for Chelsea. At Leipzig although he wasn't often the main centre forward, he favoured playing between the lines and starting from deeper more central areas but he was also playing in a team that interchanged positions better than Chelsea do currently.

With the way he's asked to play at Chelsea and given how Chelsea's attack operate, he's more limited in terms of the type of runs he can make and space he can create doing so, plus he's not in the best position to make best use of the counter attack because he's asked to defend deeper and wider.

comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by rosso - it’s not good enough to be right; you have to be effective (U17054)
posted 3 minutes ago
Ah, you mean like in Matchweek 27 last season when we leapfrogged Spurs when they were beaten by Chelsea.

Or Matchweek 37 when we leapfrogged Chelsea and Leicester after they both lost.

Or Matchweek 11 this season when we leapfrogged City.

Or Matchweek 13 when we leapfrogged Chelsea by taking advantage of their defeat by Wolves.

Or Matchweek 14 when we leapfrogged Spurs by taking advantage of their defeat by Leicester.

Like those?
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Teams aren't too focused on the table early on. It becomes more heated with less room for error towards the end. Less room for error equals more pressure. You're not denying this are you?
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If you want to talk about room for error, how much do you have when you’ve lost three of your first four games of the season?

And even if we accept your (pretty counterintuitive) hypothesis, how do you explain our climb up the table in the final third of last season, when we overtook Sheff United, then Spurs, then Chelsea and Leicester when it came to crunch time?

If anything, surely that run in demonstrates that we are actually kings of taking advantage of our rivals’ slip-ups.

With respect, you’ve been talking absolute, unmitigated horseshiiiit since you arrived on the thread.

comment by The Red Side™ (U11275)
posted 3 minutes ago
Werner seems to be the biggest problem. He’s not a number 9 like Giroud and Tammy Welbeck. Apparently he’s always struggled as a lone striker, which is why Leipzig used to have someone else up alongside him so he could run off.

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Werner's playing too close to the touchline for Chelsea. At Leipzig although he wasn't often the main centre forward, he favoured playing between the lines and starting from deeper more central areas but he was also playing in a team that interchanged positions better than Chelsea do currently.

With the way he's asked to play at Chelsea and given how Chelsea's attack operate, he's more limited in terms of the type of runs he can make and space he can create doing so, plus he's not in the best position to make best use of the counter attack because he's asked to defend deeper and wider.
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Kind of supports the theory that the issues are the profile of the players, which was my point earlier rather than it simply being a numbers issue with Chelsea’s signings.

A lot of people said Werner would struggle at Chelsea for many of the reasons you’ve stated.

Though his Torresesque finishing and Lukakuesque touches and passes aren’t a positional issue.

comment by rosso - it’s not good enough to be right; you have to be effective (U17054)
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If you want to talk about room for error, how much do you have when you’ve lost three of your first four games of the season?
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Well you have 34 games left. How much pressure is felt depends on objectives. The manager would be feeling pressure more than the players in that situation I imagine as his job is on the line.






If anything, surely that run in demonstrates that we are actually kings of taking advantage of our rivals’ slip-ups.
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Last season we did it in the end, an improvement on the previous season when we failed to take advantage of Chelsea and Arsenal slipping up.

However, the fact it went to the last day after drawing at home with west ham would suggest we not quite kings of it.

comment by The Red Side™ (U11275)
posted 22 minutes ago
I'd argue the pressure would be at its peak when you're facing the possibility of losing your job, which I'm sure Ole was around the time of the Burnley game at Old Trafford last season.

If we hadn't had such a dramatic turn around in results after that game, I think Ole would've been sacked.
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For the manager it likely is. It's probably different for the players though.

Is N2 an RDD sock account?

comment by The Red Side™ (U11275)
posted 1 minute ago
Werner seems to be the biggest problem. He’s not a number 9 like Giroud and Tammy Welbeck. Apparently he’s always struggled as a lone striker, which is why Leipzig used to have someone else up alongside him so he could run off.

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Werner's playing too close to the touchline for Chelsea. At Leipzig although he wasn't often the main centre forward, he favoured playing between the lines and starting from deeper more central areas but he was also playing in a team that interchanged positions better than Chelsea do currently.

With the way he's asked to play at Chelsea and given how Chelsea's attack operate, he's more limited in terms of the type of runs he can make and space he can create doing so, plus he's not in the best position to make best use of the counter attack because he's asked to defend deeper and wider.
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This is another reason why the 4-2-3-1 setup would make more sense: you can make that same argument about interchanging of Havertz. Ziyech and Pulisic are also versatile and intelligent players who are very capable of seeking out space and close combination/overloading opportunities.

In short, they have a group of players who you could see thriving in a more fluid system.

With Werner up top, you don’t have the same kind of focal point that Giroud, for example, provides. But neither do we with Martial. And as long as you have players with good movement who can run in behind and finish in the supporting line, that doesn’t always have to be an issue.

comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 1 minute ago
Is N2 an RDD sock account?
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Do I ask that many questions?

Difference is we have Bruno providing a threat in the middle. Not sure Chelsea would have that with the tendency of their players to drift to the wide areas. Which just leaves Mount and Kante in there playing like Henderson, but with less creativity.

comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 1 minute ago
Is N2 an RDD sock account?
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Do I ask that many questions?
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I don't know, do you?

And their full backs are a massive part of their attack. So they need a focal point in box. It just looks to me like they’ve brought in a lot of players without really thinking about their suitability to play together. So they’re so reliant on bits of individual magic, Giroud’s headers and set pieces.

For the manager it likely is. It's probably different for the players though.

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I'm not sure about that. There's always pressure but you'd rather deal with the good kind of pressure that comes with winning and when you're doing well than the bad kind, which everyone would've been under at that stage of last season.

Though his Torresesque finishing and Lukakuesque touches and passes aren’t a positional issue.

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I think he's just having a bad time of it at the moment which isn't being helped by some of the other things that Chelsea are doing.

comment by Donny The King van de Beek (U10026)
posted 38 seconds ago
And their full backs are a massive part of their attack. So they need a focal point in box. It just looks to me like they’ve brought in a lot of players without really thinking about their suitability to play together. So they’re so reliant on bits of individual magic, Giroud’s headers and set pieces.
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Their fullbacks can still be an important part of the attack without a traditional nine around the penalty spot.

Of Liverpool’s 85 or so league goals last season, something like 15 were headers, and I think probably most of those were by defenders at set pieces.

TAA and Robertson still got 25 assists between them, largely because of the brilliant movement of Liverpool’s forwards.

This is another reason why the 4-2-3-1 setup would make more sense: you can make that same argument about interchanging of Havertz. Ziyech and Pulisic are also versatile and intelligent players who are very capable of seeking out space and close combination/overloading opportunities.

In short, they have a group of players who you could see thriving in a more fluid system.

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Yeah I'd agree with that.

But Liverpool’s whole front three act as a focal point for their full backs. All three get in the box and are good in the air. With the profile of the Chelsea forwards, and the way they involve their full backs, they really do need a number 9 when they put crosses in. They also don’t have runners from the midfield getting in the box like Liverpool do.

They can get by with individual class, though. But I don’t look at the way Chelsea play and think it’s suiting what they have in the squad right now. And I think it’s more than just Lampard not being very good, as I’ve expressed.

So to clarify, did we capitalise this evening by winning, or was it too early in the season to count?

Moving above Leicester and capitalising when they drop points aren’t the same thing. So no.