comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 46 minutes ago
OP
Decent article, but England like Spurs have a lot of overrated players. Players only have to beat one player and they are made out to be the next best thing. Lots of average players, rather than blaming managers all the time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Disagree. The current England squad has a lot of talented players...lets name a few...
Kane, Grealish, Walker, Shaw, Trippier (**), Rice, Rashford, Sterling,....
But none of them are geniuses. The manager's job is to make them look like geniuses....i.e., use them appropriately during a match.
I did not see Southgate doing much of that in this match.
BTW...I would never have thought of Trippier, but his time at Atletico has improved him greatly!
Instead what Southgate did was to throw the wrong players into the wrong situation, and ignore the right players for the right situation.
In other words...he mismanaged this match.
comment by Macca: Emily Bishop's love child (U8194)
posted 43 seconds ago
I reckon even Jose would not have been as negative if he had the England squad at his disposal.
I'm sure he would have matched up Italy in midfield and played a back 4 and had Grealish or Sancho on from the start.
It seems an even split in opinion with half appreciative of Southgate's effort and content for him to carry on playing his overly cautious style getting us to a final and semi means he knows what is best and deserves enormous credit blar blar blar... I would argue that a schools under 16 manager would have done just as well with the abundance of talent at their disposal.
The other half of the football fraternity see a big opportunity missed and don't trust Southgate to be able to bring out the best in this talented crop.
Who else is out their who could bring us a tournament victory we crave so much playing to our full potential and focusing on our many attacking strengths. Well I Ithink there is an ex England midfielder out of work atm.
He was Unlucky at Chelsea but I believe he would be a better appointment than nice safe dull cautious Mr Southgate and he has the grit steel and the look of a winner.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Someone like Graham Potter would be better. Drills his Brighton team well and gets them playing attacking football while still being solid at the back. Capable of adapting his formation and tactics to suit the opposition during games.
As you say, anyone slightly competent could replicate what Southgate has in similar circumstances. All you've got to do is trust in the youth and get on with the players and you'll get a decent team spirit with this lot, and of course thrive from having a nice draw and a home advantage.
And I'll say it again......England should have won this match.
comment by JustCallMeTed (U21528)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 46 minutes ago
OP
Decent article, but England like Spurs have a lot of overrated players. Players only have to beat one player and they are made out to be the next best thing. Lots of average players, rather than blaming managers all the time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Disagree. The current England squad has a lot of talented players...lets name a few...
Kane, Grealish, Walker, Shaw, Trippier (**), Rice, Rashford, Sterling,....
But none of them are geniuses. The manager's job is to make them look like geniuses....i.e., use them appropriately during a match.
I did not see Southgate doing much of that in this match.
BTW...I would never have thought of Trippier, but his time at Atletico has improved him greatly!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Trippier was never as bad as Spurs fans made out. He was an easy scapegoat who as I discovered later, was suffering from an injury in his last season with us.
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 1 hour, 12 minutes ago
comment by Macca: Emily Bishop's love child (U8194)
posted 43 seconds ago
I reckon even Jose would not have been as negative if he had the England squad at his disposal.
I'm sure he would have matched up Italy in midfield and played a back 4 and had Grealish or Sancho on from the start.
It seems an even split in opinion with half appreciative of Southgate's effort and content for him to carry on playing his overly cautious style getting us to a final and semi means he knows what is best and deserves enormous credit blar blar blar... I would argue that a schools under 16 manager would have done just as well with the abundance of talent at their disposal.
The other half of the football fraternity see a big opportunity missed and don't trust Southgate to be able to bring out the best in this talented crop.
Who else is out their who could bring us a tournament victory we crave so much playing to our full potential and focusing on our many attacking strengths. Well I Ithink there is an ex England midfielder out of work atm.
He was Unlucky at Chelsea but I believe he would be a better appointment than nice safe dull cautious Mr Southgate and he has the grit steel and the look of a winner.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Someone like Graham Potter would be better. Drills his Brighton team well and gets them playing attacking football while still being solid at the back. Capable of adapting his formation and tactics to suit the opposition during games.
As you say, anyone slightly competent could replicate what Southgate has in similar circumstances. All you've got to do is trust in the youth and get on with the players and you'll get a decent team spirit with this lot, and of course thrive from having a nice draw and a home advantage.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I have no problem with Potter he too could be a very successful coach with this squad. I like his style.
For me it comes down to a gut feeling that I can not for the life of me imagine England parading a trophy under Southgate's charge which some might say well we were only a penalty kick away so let him carry on.
I don't think he we will ever have an easier route to the final again and his tactical difficiencies and ponderous laboured style will see us eliminated at a much earlier stage.
You can see it in his eyes or rather you can't see that look of a winner that a Lampard or a Potter pocess.
I can imagine us winning a major tournament with Lampard or Potter at the helm I don't get that feeling with Southgate. I just don't think he has that bit of tactical gold dust needed to push England over the tournament champions winning line.
comment by Bumble (U6465)
posted 14 hours, 37 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 13 minutes ago
I guarantee we will go out the same way in Qatar. We'll meet a big team, maybe take the lead, and then Southgate will try and protect it rather than go for the jugular. We'll get punished and be knocked out. It happened at the previous World Cup and it happened at this Euros.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Give the guy the chance to learn. I know we did much the same vs Croatia, we now have the likes of Grealish, Foden, Mount who are all new on the international scene and hopefully we can build on these players
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mount will always start if he's fit regardless of form.
Same with Sterling who despite being a headless chicken has been lauahably lauded by most pundits and the media as Pele reborn after a few tap ins.
Saka is starting over Grealish and Foden, when Foden was fit!!! Just No.
Foden and Grealish together for that brief moment they shared a pitch behind Kane was great to watch. We played with the attacking intent this team should play with.
The problems with Jack go back to the youth set up and Aidy Bothroyd. A nothing yes man and useless manager but close to Southgate.
Nothing will change in Qatar. Just more seasoned cautious tactics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem we faced vs Italy was our inability to play out under their high press.
This was caused by 2 things.
1. We sat too deep, when we recovered the ball, and under pressure from the Italians, we lack options to play out. Grealish and Foden would not have helped this situation a great deal when the entire team was 35 yards from our won goal. It was the approach that needed to change.
2. To me it seemed obvious that under that press, its pace that changes things. Someone left up field to provide an outlet to run in behind the acres left in behind that ageing defence. I have always felt Southgate is too obsessed with passing to feet. Its all neat and tidy but sometimes you just need a decent ball over the top for a pace man to run on to. That turns their defence around. That puts doubts in their mind, perhaps sees them drop a bit and their press becomes less effective. From there we can look to build better from the back. But it seemed like a tactic or strategy we had not rehearsed so didnt employ.
We needed the threat of pace to get us back in the game so Sterling & Saka were the right choices but they were made to do too much defensively. With 4 defenders and 2 DMs and the hard working Mount, we could have easily taken more risks in leaving players upfield at times.
Unbelievable! A manager gets us to our first final in 55 years and you lot throw criticism his way. Yeah, we lost but only on the lottery of a penalty shootout. On another day we win that and GS is the tactical genius and RM is the flawed one.
I get the fact that it's a cautious approach but it's the furthest we've ever get in this competition so maybe, just maybe, it was the right call. Right now we don't have a ball carrier in midfield or someone that can control a game like a Modric (maybe Bellingham in the future). Until we do we'll always be on the back foot and have to add more numbers to a defensive unit against the better sides. With the squad at his disposal right now, GS did as well as he could have done. Yes, we've got good players at the top end but we can't add more up top and thin out the back line. You're talking Ossie Ardiles football which just doesn't work. The very best international sides have always been hard to beat. Always. GS recognised that and changed his system. That enabled him to concede as little as two goals in seven matches. It was a near perfect tactical decision. If Rashford's penalty had shaved the post and gone in, we could be talking of Southgate as a shrewd tactical manager.
He should be lauded, not criticised. Remember, Mancini nearly went out of the tournament in the previous rounds. Luck plays its part. We just didn't have any on the night.
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 3 hours, 54 minutes ago
Unbelievable! A manager gets us to our first final in 55 years and you lot throw criticism his way. Yeah, we lost but only on the lottery of a penalty shootout. On another day we win that and GS is the tactical genius and RM is the flawed one.
I get the fact that it's a cautious approach but it's the furthest we've ever get in this competition so maybe, just maybe, it was the right call. Right now we don't have a ball carrier in midfield or someone that can control a game like a Modric (maybe Bellingham in the future). Until we do we'll always be on the back foot and have to add more numbers to a defensive unit against the better sides. With the squad at his disposal right now, GS did as well as he could have done. Yes, we've got good players at the top end but we can't add more up top and thin out the back line. You're talking Ossie Ardiles football which just doesn't work. The very best international sides have always been hard to beat. Always. GS recognised that and changed his system. That enabled him to concede as little as two goals in seven matches. It was a near perfect tactical decision. If Rashford's penalty had shaved the post and gone in, we could be talking of Southgate as a shrewd tactical manager.
He should be lauded, not criticised. Remember, Mancini nearly went out of the tournament in the previous rounds. Luck plays its part. We just didn't have any on the night.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the phrase that sums it up is "don't die wondering"
Many fans, and probably players, will be wondering whether really having a go at them would have got a better result.
There is always a sense of huge disappointment when losing a final but when the team has not performed to their best (and in this case it seemed like the tactics constrained their ability to do so) questions come with that disappointment.
I think most would have preferred a plucky 3-2 loss in normal time than the more timid loss on penalties. And after such a strong start, it was more than possible for us to counter punch with some attacking threat of our own.
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Jose Southgate
Page 2 of 2
posted on 12/7/21
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 46 minutes ago
OP
Decent article, but England like Spurs have a lot of overrated players. Players only have to beat one player and they are made out to be the next best thing. Lots of average players, rather than blaming managers all the time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Disagree. The current England squad has a lot of talented players...lets name a few...
Kane, Grealish, Walker, Shaw, Trippier (**), Rice, Rashford, Sterling,....
But none of them are geniuses. The manager's job is to make them look like geniuses....i.e., use them appropriately during a match.
I did not see Southgate doing much of that in this match.
BTW...I would never have thought of Trippier, but his time at Atletico has improved him greatly!
posted on 12/7/21
Instead what Southgate did was to throw the wrong players into the wrong situation, and ignore the right players for the right situation.
In other words...he mismanaged this match.
posted on 12/7/21
comment by Macca: Emily Bishop's love child (U8194)
posted 43 seconds ago
I reckon even Jose would not have been as negative if he had the England squad at his disposal.
I'm sure he would have matched up Italy in midfield and played a back 4 and had Grealish or Sancho on from the start.
It seems an even split in opinion with half appreciative of Southgate's effort and content for him to carry on playing his overly cautious style getting us to a final and semi means he knows what is best and deserves enormous credit blar blar blar... I would argue that a schools under 16 manager would have done just as well with the abundance of talent at their disposal.
The other half of the football fraternity see a big opportunity missed and don't trust Southgate to be able to bring out the best in this talented crop.
Who else is out their who could bring us a tournament victory we crave so much playing to our full potential and focusing on our many attacking strengths. Well I Ithink there is an ex England midfielder out of work atm.
He was Unlucky at Chelsea but I believe he would be a better appointment than nice safe dull cautious Mr Southgate and he has the grit steel and the look of a winner.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Someone like Graham Potter would be better. Drills his Brighton team well and gets them playing attacking football while still being solid at the back. Capable of adapting his formation and tactics to suit the opposition during games.
As you say, anyone slightly competent could replicate what Southgate has in similar circumstances. All you've got to do is trust in the youth and get on with the players and you'll get a decent team spirit with this lot, and of course thrive from having a nice draw and a home advantage.
posted on 12/7/21
And I'll say it again......England should have won this match.
posted on 12/7/21
comment by JustCallMeTed (U21528)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 46 minutes ago
OP
Decent article, but England like Spurs have a lot of overrated players. Players only have to beat one player and they are made out to be the next best thing. Lots of average players, rather than blaming managers all the time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Disagree. The current England squad has a lot of talented players...lets name a few...
Kane, Grealish, Walker, Shaw, Trippier (**), Rice, Rashford, Sterling,....
But none of them are geniuses. The manager's job is to make them look like geniuses....i.e., use them appropriately during a match.
I did not see Southgate doing much of that in this match.
BTW...I would never have thought of Trippier, but his time at Atletico has improved him greatly!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Trippier was never as bad as Spurs fans made out. He was an easy scapegoat who as I discovered later, was suffering from an injury in his last season with us.
posted on 12/7/21
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 1 hour, 12 minutes ago
comment by Macca: Emily Bishop's love child (U8194)
posted 43 seconds ago
I reckon even Jose would not have been as negative if he had the England squad at his disposal.
I'm sure he would have matched up Italy in midfield and played a back 4 and had Grealish or Sancho on from the start.
It seems an even split in opinion with half appreciative of Southgate's effort and content for him to carry on playing his overly cautious style getting us to a final and semi means he knows what is best and deserves enormous credit blar blar blar... I would argue that a schools under 16 manager would have done just as well with the abundance of talent at their disposal.
The other half of the football fraternity see a big opportunity missed and don't trust Southgate to be able to bring out the best in this talented crop.
Who else is out their who could bring us a tournament victory we crave so much playing to our full potential and focusing on our many attacking strengths. Well I Ithink there is an ex England midfielder out of work atm.
He was Unlucky at Chelsea but I believe he would be a better appointment than nice safe dull cautious Mr Southgate and he has the grit steel and the look of a winner.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Someone like Graham Potter would be better. Drills his Brighton team well and gets them playing attacking football while still being solid at the back. Capable of adapting his formation and tactics to suit the opposition during games.
As you say, anyone slightly competent could replicate what Southgate has in similar circumstances. All you've got to do is trust in the youth and get on with the players and you'll get a decent team spirit with this lot, and of course thrive from having a nice draw and a home advantage.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I have no problem with Potter he too could be a very successful coach with this squad. I like his style.
For me it comes down to a gut feeling that I can not for the life of me imagine England parading a trophy under Southgate's charge which some might say well we were only a penalty kick away so let him carry on.
I don't think he we will ever have an easier route to the final again and his tactical difficiencies and ponderous laboured style will see us eliminated at a much earlier stage.
You can see it in his eyes or rather you can't see that look of a winner that a Lampard or a Potter pocess.
I can imagine us winning a major tournament with Lampard or Potter at the helm I don't get that feeling with Southgate. I just don't think he has that bit of tactical gold dust needed to push England over the tournament champions winning line.
posted on 13/7/21
comment by Bumble (U6465)
posted 14 hours, 37 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 13 minutes ago
I guarantee we will go out the same way in Qatar. We'll meet a big team, maybe take the lead, and then Southgate will try and protect it rather than go for the jugular. We'll get punished and be knocked out. It happened at the previous World Cup and it happened at this Euros.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Give the guy the chance to learn. I know we did much the same vs Croatia, we now have the likes of Grealish, Foden, Mount who are all new on the international scene and hopefully we can build on these players
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mount will always start if he's fit regardless of form.
Same with Sterling who despite being a headless chicken has been lauahably lauded by most pundits and the media as Pele reborn after a few tap ins.
Saka is starting over Grealish and Foden, when Foden was fit!!! Just No.
Foden and Grealish together for that brief moment they shared a pitch behind Kane was great to watch. We played with the attacking intent this team should play with.
The problems with Jack go back to the youth set up and Aidy Bothroyd. A nothing yes man and useless manager but close to Southgate.
Nothing will change in Qatar. Just more seasoned cautious tactics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem we faced vs Italy was our inability to play out under their high press.
This was caused by 2 things.
1. We sat too deep, when we recovered the ball, and under pressure from the Italians, we lack options to play out. Grealish and Foden would not have helped this situation a great deal when the entire team was 35 yards from our won goal. It was the approach that needed to change.
2. To me it seemed obvious that under that press, its pace that changes things. Someone left up field to provide an outlet to run in behind the acres left in behind that ageing defence. I have always felt Southgate is too obsessed with passing to feet. Its all neat and tidy but sometimes you just need a decent ball over the top for a pace man to run on to. That turns their defence around. That puts doubts in their mind, perhaps sees them drop a bit and their press becomes less effective. From there we can look to build better from the back. But it seemed like a tactic or strategy we had not rehearsed so didnt employ.
We needed the threat of pace to get us back in the game so Sterling & Saka were the right choices but they were made to do too much defensively. With 4 defenders and 2 DMs and the hard working Mount, we could have easily taken more risks in leaving players upfield at times.
posted on 13/7/21
Unbelievable! A manager gets us to our first final in 55 years and you lot throw criticism his way. Yeah, we lost but only on the lottery of a penalty shootout. On another day we win that and GS is the tactical genius and RM is the flawed one.
I get the fact that it's a cautious approach but it's the furthest we've ever get in this competition so maybe, just maybe, it was the right call. Right now we don't have a ball carrier in midfield or someone that can control a game like a Modric (maybe Bellingham in the future). Until we do we'll always be on the back foot and have to add more numbers to a defensive unit against the better sides. With the squad at his disposal right now, GS did as well as he could have done. Yes, we've got good players at the top end but we can't add more up top and thin out the back line. You're talking Ossie Ardiles football which just doesn't work. The very best international sides have always been hard to beat. Always. GS recognised that and changed his system. That enabled him to concede as little as two goals in seven matches. It was a near perfect tactical decision. If Rashford's penalty had shaved the post and gone in, we could be talking of Southgate as a shrewd tactical manager.
He should be lauded, not criticised. Remember, Mancini nearly went out of the tournament in the previous rounds. Luck plays its part. We just didn't have any on the night.
posted on 13/7/21
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 3 hours, 54 minutes ago
Unbelievable! A manager gets us to our first final in 55 years and you lot throw criticism his way. Yeah, we lost but only on the lottery of a penalty shootout. On another day we win that and GS is the tactical genius and RM is the flawed one.
I get the fact that it's a cautious approach but it's the furthest we've ever get in this competition so maybe, just maybe, it was the right call. Right now we don't have a ball carrier in midfield or someone that can control a game like a Modric (maybe Bellingham in the future). Until we do we'll always be on the back foot and have to add more numbers to a defensive unit against the better sides. With the squad at his disposal right now, GS did as well as he could have done. Yes, we've got good players at the top end but we can't add more up top and thin out the back line. You're talking Ossie Ardiles football which just doesn't work. The very best international sides have always been hard to beat. Always. GS recognised that and changed his system. That enabled him to concede as little as two goals in seven matches. It was a near perfect tactical decision. If Rashford's penalty had shaved the post and gone in, we could be talking of Southgate as a shrewd tactical manager.
He should be lauded, not criticised. Remember, Mancini nearly went out of the tournament in the previous rounds. Luck plays its part. We just didn't have any on the night.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the phrase that sums it up is "don't die wondering"
Many fans, and probably players, will be wondering whether really having a go at them would have got a better result.
There is always a sense of huge disappointment when losing a final but when the team has not performed to their best (and in this case it seemed like the tactics constrained their ability to do so) questions come with that disappointment.
I think most would have preferred a plucky 3-2 loss in normal time than the more timid loss on penalties. And after such a strong start, it was more than possible for us to counter punch with some attacking threat of our own.
Page 2 of 2