I agree with a lot of what you say, particularly when Wilko came in and changed the club from top to bottom after a series of ex players were at the helm (I still think we should have persevered with Eddie Gray though).
Yes, we are a work in progress, but this was a home tournament, with an advantageous group draw and route to the final and we blew the best chance we will have in a generation. So, so frustrating and so, so England.
Some people think we will build from this and win a tournament before long because hey, we got to a semi final and then a final.
Well no, in the World Cup we had a generous draw, and then in the Euros we had a generous draw + home advantage. Presumably that luck will run out by the time we get to Qatar, which is going to mean meeting a big team earlier on (when we don't have playing at home going for us). As we've seen with Southgate he doesn't have the best record against big teams, he tends to play more safe than ever against them cause he's afraid of them, and that leads to sitting back and getting punished.
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 5 minutes ago
Some people think we will build from this and win a tournament before long because hey, we got to a semi final and then a final.
Well no, in the World Cup we had a generous draw, and then in the Euros we had a generous draw + home advantage. Presumably that luck will run out by the time we get to Qatar, which is going to mean meeting a big team earlier on (when we don't have playing at home going for us). As we've seen with Southgate he doesn't have the best record against big teams, he tends to play more safe than ever against them cause he's afraid of them, and that leads to sitting back and getting punished.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I couldn't agree more Spurtle.
Avoiding a "big team" isn't as lucky as you think, especially at a world cup. In theory we'd be unlucky to get one before the quarter finals, and that's on the assumption that they won't underperformed and lose to a "lesser" side.
comment by Kroenke_out (U21076)
posted 4 minutes ago
Avoiding a "big team" isn't as lucky as you think, especially at a world cup. In theory we'd be unlucky to get one before the quarter finals, and that's on the assumption that they won't underperformed and lose to a "lesser" side.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I think about some of the draws and groups we had in the 00's. In 2000 we had Portugal and Germany in our group, in 2002 we met Brazil in the quarters, in 2004 we met Portugal at the same point and again in 2006. I know we faced Germany here but it was a home tournament and funnily enough the last time we knocked a big team out in a KO game was in a home tournament. Plus we always had injuries to key players back then, something that Southgate doesn't seem to experience.
Southgate really couldn't have hoped for more fortune during his reign as England manager. It's like he facked the Blarney Stone prior to getting the job.
I think people are being pretty disrespectful and arrogant when they talk about this easy draw stuff. These are games all featuring players who play the top level and fixtures that England used to struggle in prior to Southgate (Iceland, Algeria, USA, Slovakia to name a few).
At this tournament, Switzerland knocked out France and took Spain to penalties. In the last world cup, Spain were knocked out by Russia. These so called easy games are never really that straight forward.
Colombia, Denmark, Croatia, Germany and Italy (who remember didn't actually beat England in 120 minutes) aren't easy fixtures. Southgate deserves a lot of credit for the way he has managed the two tournaments as much as he got yesterday wrong.
We seemed to sit way too deep and there was precious little press, I really didn't understand the system.
comment by Carajo (U2196)
posted 23 minutes ago
I think people are being pretty disrespectful and arrogant when they talk about this easy draw stuff. These are games all featuring players who play the top level and fixtures that England used to struggle in prior to Southgate (Iceland, Algeria, USA, Slovakia to name a few).
At this tournament, Switzerland knocked out France and took Spain to penalties. In the last world cup, Spain were knocked out by Russia. These so called easy games are never really that straight forward.
Colombia, Denmark, Croatia, Germany and Italy (who remember didn't actually beat England in 120 minutes) aren't easy fixtures. Southgate deserves a lot of credit for the way he has managed the two tournaments as much as he got yesterday wrong.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes but history tells us that England tend to be able to beat the less big sides in these tournaments when it comes to the KO rounds and lose to the bigger sides. Hence why we hadn't knocked a big side out prior to Germany for 25 years. Whereas we have at least beaten the likes of Denmark, Paraguay, Colombia, and Sweden in that time. The lack of wins and increase in wins extends when you include group games for stronger and weaker teams, respectively.
"Presumably that luck will run out by the time we get to Qatar, which is going to mean meeting a big team earlier on "
We just played the World Cup finalists in our very first game.
Its disappointing the way England fans are, praise to the ones that are supporting England and its players, there is no reason for any off the players or Southgate to be dragged down for losing on penalties which it seems is a fate England cant overcome!..
Germany, France and Portugal got no further, some went out to the so called lesser teams!..
All boils down to the good old big club small club crap, people should think on, in Football,(or any sport!)anything can happen, and sometimes it hurts!..
Clubs that make these tournaments no matter how big or small have the same right as anyone to be there, they have earned their places and it is very disrespectful for anyone to think they haven't!..
Shame on anyone that has gone on the internet and slammed players or the coach for getting close but not bringing it home, hopefully things can be looked at and planned out for the next go, with a team off youngsters that hopefully hold their nerve to fulfill what is more their dream than thoses that are doing the slamming!..
comment by Carajo (U2196)
posted 18 hours, 40 minutes ago
I think people are being pretty disrespectful and arrogant when they talk about this easy draw stuff. These are games all featuring players who play the top level and fixtures that England used to struggle in prior to Southgate (Iceland, Algeria, USA, Slovakia to name a few).
At this tournament, Switzerland knocked out France and took Spain to penalties. In the last world cup, Spain were knocked out by Russia. These so called easy games are never really that straight forward.
Colombia, Denmark, Croatia, Germany and Italy (who remember didn't actually beat England in 120 minutes) aren't easy fixtures. Southgate deserves a lot of credit for the way he has managed the two tournaments as much as he got yesterday wrong.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with your last sentence, BUT surely anyone has to admit that a QF against a Ukraine side who had shot their bolt getting as far as they did, a home SF against a Danish side pretty much in the same boat, then a home Final is about as "favourable" as it's ever likely to get? Certainly compared to Italy having to play world no1 ranked Belgium in the QF, a resurgent Spain in the SF, then the effective "hosts" at a packed Wembley in the Final. Admittedly nothing that Southgate can do about that luck of the draw (2 tournaments running), other than thank his lucky stars.
comment by Dave The Jackal (U22179)
posted 13 hours, 43 minutes ago
comment by Carajo (U2196)
posted 18 hours, 40 minutes ago
I think people are being pretty disrespectful and arrogant when they talk about this easy draw stuff. These are games all featuring players who play the top level and fixtures that England used to struggle in prior to Southgate (Iceland, Algeria, USA, Slovakia to name a few).
At this tournament, Switzerland knocked out France and took Spain to penalties. In the last world cup, Spain were knocked out by Russia. These so called easy games are never really that straight forward.
Colombia, Denmark, Croatia, Germany and Italy (who remember didn't actually beat England in 120 minutes) aren't easy fixtures. Southgate deserves a lot of credit for the way he has managed the two tournaments as much as he got yesterday wrong.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with your last sentence, BUT surely anyone has to admit that a QF against a Ukraine side who had shot their bolt getting as far as they did, a home SF against a Danish side pretty much in the same boat, then a home Final is about as "favourable" as it's ever likely to get? Certainly compared to Italy having to play world no1 ranked Belgium in the QF, a resurgent Spain in the SF, then the effective "hosts" at a packed Wembley in the Final. Admittedly nothing that Southgate can do about that luck of the draw (2 tournaments running), other than thank his lucky stars.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But the reason that draw was so "lucky" is because the "resurgent" Spain weren't good enough to win their group and go into our half of the draw, and if we're using this "big team" rhetoric then they got knocked out by the first big team they faced anyway. And then Holland also lost .
You act like these "big teams" are all great and have few problems, but the fact is that there's every likelihood that most of their issues can be exploited by a well managed "lesser" side and they'll be knocked out before they can even play England. It's happened too often to be simply put down to luck. It even happened to England in Euro 2016.
The only bit I agree about is being at home, but then Russia isn't our home.
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posted on 12/7/21
I agree with a lot of what you say, particularly when Wilko came in and changed the club from top to bottom after a series of ex players were at the helm (I still think we should have persevered with Eddie Gray though).
Yes, we are a work in progress, but this was a home tournament, with an advantageous group draw and route to the final and we blew the best chance we will have in a generation. So, so frustrating and so, so England.
posted on 12/7/21
Some people think we will build from this and win a tournament before long because hey, we got to a semi final and then a final.
Well no, in the World Cup we had a generous draw, and then in the Euros we had a generous draw + home advantage. Presumably that luck will run out by the time we get to Qatar, which is going to mean meeting a big team earlier on (when we don't have playing at home going for us). As we've seen with Southgate he doesn't have the best record against big teams, he tends to play more safe than ever against them cause he's afraid of them, and that leads to sitting back and getting punished.
posted on 12/7/21
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 5 minutes ago
Some people think we will build from this and win a tournament before long because hey, we got to a semi final and then a final.
Well no, in the World Cup we had a generous draw, and then in the Euros we had a generous draw + home advantage. Presumably that luck will run out by the time we get to Qatar, which is going to mean meeting a big team earlier on (when we don't have playing at home going for us). As we've seen with Southgate he doesn't have the best record against big teams, he tends to play more safe than ever against them cause he's afraid of them, and that leads to sitting back and getting punished.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I couldn't agree more Spurtle.
posted on 12/7/21
Wilko
posted on 12/7/21
Avoiding a "big team" isn't as lucky as you think, especially at a world cup. In theory we'd be unlucky to get one before the quarter finals, and that's on the assumption that they won't underperformed and lose to a "lesser" side.
posted on 12/7/21
comment by Kroenke_out (U21076)
posted 4 minutes ago
Avoiding a "big team" isn't as lucky as you think, especially at a world cup. In theory we'd be unlucky to get one before the quarter finals, and that's on the assumption that they won't underperformed and lose to a "lesser" side.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I think about some of the draws and groups we had in the 00's. In 2000 we had Portugal and Germany in our group, in 2002 we met Brazil in the quarters, in 2004 we met Portugal at the same point and again in 2006. I know we faced Germany here but it was a home tournament and funnily enough the last time we knocked a big team out in a KO game was in a home tournament. Plus we always had injuries to key players back then, something that Southgate doesn't seem to experience.
Southgate really couldn't have hoped for more fortune during his reign as England manager. It's like he facked the Blarney Stone prior to getting the job.
posted on 12/7/21
I think people are being pretty disrespectful and arrogant when they talk about this easy draw stuff. These are games all featuring players who play the top level and fixtures that England used to struggle in prior to Southgate (Iceland, Algeria, USA, Slovakia to name a few).
At this tournament, Switzerland knocked out France and took Spain to penalties. In the last world cup, Spain were knocked out by Russia. These so called easy games are never really that straight forward.
Colombia, Denmark, Croatia, Germany and Italy (who remember didn't actually beat England in 120 minutes) aren't easy fixtures. Southgate deserves a lot of credit for the way he has managed the two tournaments as much as he got yesterday wrong.
posted on 12/7/21
We seemed to sit way too deep and there was precious little press, I really didn't understand the system.
posted on 12/7/21
comment by Carajo (U2196)
posted 23 minutes ago
I think people are being pretty disrespectful and arrogant when they talk about this easy draw stuff. These are games all featuring players who play the top level and fixtures that England used to struggle in prior to Southgate (Iceland, Algeria, USA, Slovakia to name a few).
At this tournament, Switzerland knocked out France and took Spain to penalties. In the last world cup, Spain were knocked out by Russia. These so called easy games are never really that straight forward.
Colombia, Denmark, Croatia, Germany and Italy (who remember didn't actually beat England in 120 minutes) aren't easy fixtures. Southgate deserves a lot of credit for the way he has managed the two tournaments as much as he got yesterday wrong.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes but history tells us that England tend to be able to beat the less big sides in these tournaments when it comes to the KO rounds and lose to the bigger sides. Hence why we hadn't knocked a big side out prior to Germany for 25 years. Whereas we have at least beaten the likes of Denmark, Paraguay, Colombia, and Sweden in that time. The lack of wins and increase in wins extends when you include group games for stronger and weaker teams, respectively.
posted on 13/7/21
"Presumably that luck will run out by the time we get to Qatar, which is going to mean meeting a big team earlier on "
We just played the World Cup finalists in our very first game.
posted on 13/7/21
Its disappointing the way England fans are, praise to the ones that are supporting England and its players, there is no reason for any off the players or Southgate to be dragged down for losing on penalties which it seems is a fate England cant overcome!..
Germany, France and Portugal got no further, some went out to the so called lesser teams!..
All boils down to the good old big club small club crap, people should think on, in Football,(or any sport!)anything can happen, and sometimes it hurts!..
Clubs that make these tournaments no matter how big or small have the same right as anyone to be there, they have earned their places and it is very disrespectful for anyone to think they haven't!..
Shame on anyone that has gone on the internet and slammed players or the coach for getting close but not bringing it home, hopefully things can be looked at and planned out for the next go, with a team off youngsters that hopefully hold their nerve to fulfill what is more their dream than thoses that are doing the slamming!..
posted on 13/7/21
comment by Carajo (U2196)
posted 18 hours, 40 minutes ago
I think people are being pretty disrespectful and arrogant when they talk about this easy draw stuff. These are games all featuring players who play the top level and fixtures that England used to struggle in prior to Southgate (Iceland, Algeria, USA, Slovakia to name a few).
At this tournament, Switzerland knocked out France and took Spain to penalties. In the last world cup, Spain were knocked out by Russia. These so called easy games are never really that straight forward.
Colombia, Denmark, Croatia, Germany and Italy (who remember didn't actually beat England in 120 minutes) aren't easy fixtures. Southgate deserves a lot of credit for the way he has managed the two tournaments as much as he got yesterday wrong.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with your last sentence, BUT surely anyone has to admit that a QF against a Ukraine side who had shot their bolt getting as far as they did, a home SF against a Danish side pretty much in the same boat, then a home Final is about as "favourable" as it's ever likely to get? Certainly compared to Italy having to play world no1 ranked Belgium in the QF, a resurgent Spain in the SF, then the effective "hosts" at a packed Wembley in the Final. Admittedly nothing that Southgate can do about that luck of the draw (2 tournaments running), other than thank his lucky stars.
posted on 14/7/21
A bitter Scot 👆
posted on 14/7/21
comment by Dave The Jackal (U22179)
posted 13 hours, 43 minutes ago
comment by Carajo (U2196)
posted 18 hours, 40 minutes ago
I think people are being pretty disrespectful and arrogant when they talk about this easy draw stuff. These are games all featuring players who play the top level and fixtures that England used to struggle in prior to Southgate (Iceland, Algeria, USA, Slovakia to name a few).
At this tournament, Switzerland knocked out France and took Spain to penalties. In the last world cup, Spain were knocked out by Russia. These so called easy games are never really that straight forward.
Colombia, Denmark, Croatia, Germany and Italy (who remember didn't actually beat England in 120 minutes) aren't easy fixtures. Southgate deserves a lot of credit for the way he has managed the two tournaments as much as he got yesterday wrong.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with your last sentence, BUT surely anyone has to admit that a QF against a Ukraine side who had shot their bolt getting as far as they did, a home SF against a Danish side pretty much in the same boat, then a home Final is about as "favourable" as it's ever likely to get? Certainly compared to Italy having to play world no1 ranked Belgium in the QF, a resurgent Spain in the SF, then the effective "hosts" at a packed Wembley in the Final. Admittedly nothing that Southgate can do about that luck of the draw (2 tournaments running), other than thank his lucky stars.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But the reason that draw was so "lucky" is because the "resurgent" Spain weren't good enough to win their group and go into our half of the draw, and if we're using this "big team" rhetoric then they got knocked out by the first big team they faced anyway. And then Holland also lost .
You act like these "big teams" are all great and have few problems, but the fact is that there's every likelihood that most of their issues can be exploited by a well managed "lesser" side and they'll be knocked out before they can even play England. It's happened too often to be simply put down to luck. It even happened to England in Euro 2016.
The only bit I agree about is being at home, but then Russia isn't our home.
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