comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ronald-Royce (U4302)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Der Post Nearly Mann (U1270)
posted 5 minutes ago
I'm trying to untangle your logic here, Jinja. Are you using this primates example to support what Mohamed Aboutrika said?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair, what he said might not be acceptable in the west but the country he lives in and a lot of other countries, Muslim or not probably share his views. Even China is against it and that's one of the biggest atheist country in the world. Saying that sometimes you need to be careful what you say to the media as it will be scrutinised to the fullest, especially anything related to LGBT.
In the west, homosexuality and transgenderism etc might be considered as normal and acceptable (and that's only the past 20 years), but in a lot of other countries, they see this as shameful and immoral.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think both your geography and your history might be a little off there.
As pointed out above, at various points through ancient and modern history, societies all over the world have been very accepting of homosexuality and homosexual relationships, including in Islamic states. It isn’t only in the West in the “past 20 years”.
The same can be said of trans history, which documented is 6,500 years old.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes that is true and I'm not disputing that. I'm not saying this wasn't practiced in the old age and its a new thing. Its even mentioned in religious books like the Bible and Quran humans had been practicing homosexuality, for example the story of Sodom. And its religion that forbade the act because it was seen as immoral and shameful, and since then it become seen as that and not acceptable by majority until recently. There were a lot of things humans did centuries ago that were later forbidden by religion and that's why prophets were sent to guide people (if you believe in this stuff), but that's a debate for another day. Gay people in this country weren't exactly treated that well in the 70s, 80s and 90s here were they?
Righ, tme to hold my hand up here, because I think it was me who started the old "examples of same-sex intercoursse are also found in animals" line of discussion.
My point was that the expression "human nature" is a load of absolute bollox used to try to dictate to others what they can/should or can't/shouldn't do.
Human beings ARE animals. If we wish to set ourselves apart from OTHER animals, then we can either try to do so scientifically or we can do it on perceived morals or ethics. People who use the expression "human nature" are simply trying to disguise moral or ethical issues as science.
I didn't mean this line of discussion to run into such long length, but I think that it has amply proved the above point.
In short, oppose homosexuality if you like, but don't try to dress it up as "human nature" as if this was some kind incontrovertible truth, which it most clearly, absolutely and undeniably IS NOT.
"In short, oppose homosexuality if you like"
I have to take issue with this, how can you oppose what somebody is (as to opposed a choice they've made)? Might as well oppose people with red hair or black people.
Can't? Many governments around the world do it as a matter of policy.
comment by Ronald-Royce (U4302)
posted 1 hour, 9 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ronald-Royce (U4302)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Der Post Nearly Mann (U1270)
posted 5 minutes ago
I'm trying to untangle your logic here, Jinja. Are you using this primates example to support what Mohamed Aboutrika said?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair, what he said might not be acceptable in the west but the country he lives in and a lot of other countries, Muslim or not probably share his views. Even China is against it and that's one of the biggest atheist country in the world. Saying that sometimes you need to be careful what you say to the media as it will be scrutinised to the fullest, especially anything related to LGBT.
In the west, homosexuality and transgenderism etc might be considered as normal and acceptable (and that's only the past 20 years), but in a lot of other countries, they see this as shameful and immoral.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think both your geography and your history might be a little off there.
As pointed out above, at various points through ancient and modern history, societies all over the world have been very accepting of homosexuality and homosexual relationships, including in Islamic states. It isn’t only in the West in the “past 20 years”.
The same can be said of trans history, which documented is 6,500 years old.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes that is true and I'm not disputing that. I'm not saying this wasn't practiced in the old age and its a new thing. Its even mentioned in religious books like the Bible and Quran humans had been practicing homosexuality, for example the story of Sodom. And its religion that forbade the act because it was seen as immoral and shameful, and since then it become seen as that and not acceptable by majority until recently. There were a lot of things humans did centuries ago that were later forbidden by religion and that's why prophets were sent to guide people (if you believe in this stuff), but that's a debate for another day. Gay people in this country weren't exactly treated that well in the 70s, 80s and 90s here were they?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, they were not.
My point was, though, that societal norms and tolerances, as well as laws, have swung backwards and forwards over the centuries since the Abrahamic religions were established.
There are, and were at various points in history, including throughout the last millennium, Christian and Islamic societies or groups which have been more tolerant of homosexuality and homosexual relationships; in this respect we aren’t living in a uniquely liberal age.
Go back just a few hundred years and there were kings and queens of England and Scotland with multiple same-sex partners, some quite openly.
Christianity and Islam didn’t set Christian and Islamic societies on a one-way path, and there are many of both faiths who don’t find conflicts between their religious beliefs and their support for rights and protections for LGBT+ people. Quite the opposite for some.
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 20 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by Der Post Nearly Mann (U1270)
posted 6 minutes ago
Been a good read this, and it's great that it didn't descend into Islamophobia or homophobia, thanks everyone
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly because any Islamophobic posters on this forum are also homophobic, and this is a kind of wedge issue that leaves them unable to give one enemy a kicking without appearing to ally with enemy?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think a similar tensions also exists within liberal thinking as well. You can’t defend gay rights and Islam tooth and nail at the same time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair point
It is uniquely liberal, as the civil rights of homosexuals are different.
Controversial opinion but isn't it ironic how the majority of Muslims are massively homophobic but will quite happily marry their own cousins as they don't want to marry outside the family.
comment by GregOle (U1192)
posted 1 hour, 14 minutes ago
Controversial opinion but isn't it ironic how the majority of Muslims are massively homophobic but will quite happily marry their own cousins as they don't want to marry outside the family.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Controversial opinion with no factual basis.
comment by GregOle (U1192)
posted 1 hour, 14 minutes ago
Controversial opinion but isn't it ironic how the majority of Muslims are massively homophobic but will quite happily marry their own cousins as they don't want to marry outside the family.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is controversial because you made it up?
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Jinja Ninja (U19849)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by GregOle (U1192)
posted 1 hour, 14 minutes ago
Controversial opinion but isn't it ironic how the majority of Muslims are massively homophobic but will quite happily marry their own cousins as they don't want to marry outside the family.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is controversial because you made it up?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lol mate. What is made up?
Research it before judging me
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 23 minutes ago
In Pakistan, half of the population marry a first or second cousin, more than in any other country.3 In rural areas this can be 80%.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Last figures were 60% in rural areas.
But the guy said Muslim not Pakistani.
comment by GregOle (U1192)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by Jinja Ninja (U19849)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by GregOle (U1192)
posted 1 hour, 14 minutes ago
Controversial opinion but isn't it ironic how the majority of Muslims are massively homophobic but will quite happily marry their own cousins as they don't want to marry outside the family.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is controversial because you made it up?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lol mate. What is made up?
Research it before judging me
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Was I judging you? Didn't mean to
Research is something I did on this during afro asian studies in the 90's. Have kept an eye on changing dynamics. Even looked into the birth defects issue. All isn't what it appears at first glance.
comment by Jinja Ninja (U19849)
posted 32 minutes ago
comment by GregOle (U1192)
posted 1 hour, 14 minutes ago
Controversial opinion but isn't it ironic how the majority of Muslims are massively homophobic but will quite happily marry their own cousins as they don't want to marry outside the family.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is controversial because you made it up?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To an extent he’s correct! There’s a different % of same blood marriages depending on which country you look at, but it isn’t always the “majority”
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 30 minutes ago
As of 2003, an average of 45% of married couples were related in the Arab world.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Arab world and Africa too has certain figures. I'm not disputing the figures for a continent.
The issue here was the assertion of Muslims and view of homosexuality and cousin marriages.
I was married to a white woman for 25 years. I'm asian. We had a disabled child together and the first question was are you cousins 😂
Cousin marriages do exist where I'm from. However the notion of cousin is very different to what we would view as cousin here in the west. I don't know if you have any asian friends. But pretty much everyone is a cousin 😂
Where I live in UK I have "cousins" on the same street I grew up in. Closer inspection shows we are not cousins but have a genealogical link.
My mum and dad would be "cousins" if you asked their families. However neither of their parents were brother/sister and in fact weren't even first cousins. No other members of the households were married to each other. Yet going through our genealogy there was a historical link between our families.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Shinjury list (U1700)
posted 2 hours, 39 minutes ago
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 20 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by Der Post Nearly Mann (U1270)
posted 6 minutes ago
Been a good read this, and it's great that it didn't descend into Islamophobia or homophobia, thanks everyone
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly because any Islamophobic posters on this forum are also homophobic, and this is a kind of wedge issue that leaves them unable to give one enemy a kicking without appearing to ally with enemy?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think a similar tensions also exists within liberal thinking as well. You can’t defend gay rights and Islam tooth and nail at the same time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair point
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, that's a good observation. This tension doesn't need to be a 'gotcha' for liberals though, if the liberal principles are applied consistently. Liberal thought deals in great depth with the inevitable messiness of having to resolve tensions between different rights that clash with each other. In this instance, I would defend gay rights in terms of the rights of individuals and minorities to live and love as they want to, while also defending Muslims from being collectively demonised and discriminated against on the basis of respect for the individual and understanding that no one should be defined by their race or creed. That doesn't mean defending 'Islam' as a whole. In this context, a liberal should be comfortable criticising aspects of certain iterations of Islam (such as prevailing interpretations in Saudi Arabia) but should also (echoing Rosso's comments) recognise that there are many interpretations of Islam and many, many believers who don't wish to impose prescriptive values on others.
In liberalism there are always tensions and trade-offs but if you try to be intellectually consistent and honest (and generally try to not be a douchebag to specific groups), you're on reasonably safe ground.
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 2 hours, 56 minutes ago
It is uniquely liberal, as the civil rights of homosexuals are different.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really...what do they get that straights don't...& how should we redress the balance
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 21 seconds ago
comment by FC Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 2 hours, 56 minutes ago
It is uniquely liberal, as the civil rights of homosexuals are different.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really...what do they get that straights don't...& how should we redress the balance
----------------------------------------------------------------------
🍆
----------------------------------------------------------------------
well...i'm no expert...but looks like it's going to hurt
Sign in if you want to comment
beIN: homosexuality is against human nature
Page 12 of 13
9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13
posted on 1/12/21
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ronald-Royce (U4302)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Der Post Nearly Mann (U1270)
posted 5 minutes ago
I'm trying to untangle your logic here, Jinja. Are you using this primates example to support what Mohamed Aboutrika said?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair, what he said might not be acceptable in the west but the country he lives in and a lot of other countries, Muslim or not probably share his views. Even China is against it and that's one of the biggest atheist country in the world. Saying that sometimes you need to be careful what you say to the media as it will be scrutinised to the fullest, especially anything related to LGBT.
In the west, homosexuality and transgenderism etc might be considered as normal and acceptable (and that's only the past 20 years), but in a lot of other countries, they see this as shameful and immoral.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think both your geography and your history might be a little off there.
As pointed out above, at various points through ancient and modern history, societies all over the world have been very accepting of homosexuality and homosexual relationships, including in Islamic states. It isn’t only in the West in the “past 20 years”.
The same can be said of trans history, which documented is 6,500 years old.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes that is true and I'm not disputing that. I'm not saying this wasn't practiced in the old age and its a new thing. Its even mentioned in religious books like the Bible and Quran humans had been practicing homosexuality, for example the story of Sodom. And its religion that forbade the act because it was seen as immoral and shameful, and since then it become seen as that and not acceptable by majority until recently. There were a lot of things humans did centuries ago that were later forbidden by religion and that's why prophets were sent to guide people (if you believe in this stuff), but that's a debate for another day. Gay people in this country weren't exactly treated that well in the 70s, 80s and 90s here were they?
posted on 1/12/21
Righ, tme to hold my hand up here, because I think it was me who started the old "examples of same-sex intercoursse are also found in animals" line of discussion.
My point was that the expression "human nature" is a load of absolute bollox used to try to dictate to others what they can/should or can't/shouldn't do.
Human beings ARE animals. If we wish to set ourselves apart from OTHER animals, then we can either try to do so scientifically or we can do it on perceived morals or ethics. People who use the expression "human nature" are simply trying to disguise moral or ethical issues as science.
I didn't mean this line of discussion to run into such long length, but I think that it has amply proved the above point.
In short, oppose homosexuality if you like, but don't try to dress it up as "human nature" as if this was some kind incontrovertible truth, which it most clearly, absolutely and undeniably IS NOT.
posted on 1/12/21
"In short, oppose homosexuality if you like"
I have to take issue with this, how can you oppose what somebody is (as to opposed a choice they've made)? Might as well oppose people with red hair or black people.
posted on 1/12/21
Can't? Many governments around the world do it as a matter of policy.
posted on 1/12/21
comment by Ronald-Royce (U4302)
posted 1 hour, 9 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ronald-Royce (U4302)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Der Post Nearly Mann (U1270)
posted 5 minutes ago
I'm trying to untangle your logic here, Jinja. Are you using this primates example to support what Mohamed Aboutrika said?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair, what he said might not be acceptable in the west but the country he lives in and a lot of other countries, Muslim or not probably share his views. Even China is against it and that's one of the biggest atheist country in the world. Saying that sometimes you need to be careful what you say to the media as it will be scrutinised to the fullest, especially anything related to LGBT.
In the west, homosexuality and transgenderism etc might be considered as normal and acceptable (and that's only the past 20 years), but in a lot of other countries, they see this as shameful and immoral.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think both your geography and your history might be a little off there.
As pointed out above, at various points through ancient and modern history, societies all over the world have been very accepting of homosexuality and homosexual relationships, including in Islamic states. It isn’t only in the West in the “past 20 years”.
The same can be said of trans history, which documented is 6,500 years old.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes that is true and I'm not disputing that. I'm not saying this wasn't practiced in the old age and its a new thing. Its even mentioned in religious books like the Bible and Quran humans had been practicing homosexuality, for example the story of Sodom. And its religion that forbade the act because it was seen as immoral and shameful, and since then it become seen as that and not acceptable by majority until recently. There were a lot of things humans did centuries ago that were later forbidden by religion and that's why prophets were sent to guide people (if you believe in this stuff), but that's a debate for another day. Gay people in this country weren't exactly treated that well in the 70s, 80s and 90s here were they?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, they were not.
My point was, though, that societal norms and tolerances, as well as laws, have swung backwards and forwards over the centuries since the Abrahamic religions were established.
There are, and were at various points in history, including throughout the last millennium, Christian and Islamic societies or groups which have been more tolerant of homosexuality and homosexual relationships; in this respect we aren’t living in a uniquely liberal age.
Go back just a few hundred years and there were kings and queens of England and Scotland with multiple same-sex partners, some quite openly.
Christianity and Islam didn’t set Christian and Islamic societies on a one-way path, and there are many of both faiths who don’t find conflicts between their religious beliefs and their support for rights and protections for LGBT+ people. Quite the opposite for some.
posted on 1/12/21
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 20 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by Der Post Nearly Mann (U1270)
posted 6 minutes ago
Been a good read this, and it's great that it didn't descend into Islamophobia or homophobia, thanks everyone
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly because any Islamophobic posters on this forum are also homophobic, and this is a kind of wedge issue that leaves them unable to give one enemy a kicking without appearing to ally with enemy?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think a similar tensions also exists within liberal thinking as well. You can’t defend gay rights and Islam tooth and nail at the same time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair point
posted on 1/12/21
It is uniquely liberal, as the civil rights of homosexuals are different.
posted on 1/12/21
Controversial opinion but isn't it ironic how the majority of Muslims are massively homophobic but will quite happily marry their own cousins as they don't want to marry outside the family.
posted on 1/12/21
comment by GregOle (U1192)
posted 1 hour, 14 minutes ago
Controversial opinion but isn't it ironic how the majority of Muslims are massively homophobic but will quite happily marry their own cousins as they don't want to marry outside the family.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Controversial opinion with no factual basis.
posted on 1/12/21
comment by GregOle (U1192)
posted 1 hour, 14 minutes ago
Controversial opinion but isn't it ironic how the majority of Muslims are massively homophobic but will quite happily marry their own cousins as they don't want to marry outside the family.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is controversial because you made it up?
posted on 1/12/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 1/12/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 1/12/21
comment by Jinja Ninja (U19849)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by GregOle (U1192)
posted 1 hour, 14 minutes ago
Controversial opinion but isn't it ironic how the majority of Muslims are massively homophobic but will quite happily marry their own cousins as they don't want to marry outside the family.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is controversial because you made it up?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lol mate. What is made up?
Research it before judging me
posted on 1/12/21
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 23 minutes ago
In Pakistan, half of the population marry a first or second cousin, more than in any other country.3 In rural areas this can be 80%.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Last figures were 60% in rural areas.
But the guy said Muslim not Pakistani.
posted on 1/12/21
comment by GregOle (U1192)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by Jinja Ninja (U19849)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by GregOle (U1192)
posted 1 hour, 14 minutes ago
Controversial opinion but isn't it ironic how the majority of Muslims are massively homophobic but will quite happily marry their own cousins as they don't want to marry outside the family.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is controversial because you made it up?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lol mate. What is made up?
Research it before judging me
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Was I judging you? Didn't mean to
Research is something I did on this during afro asian studies in the 90's. Have kept an eye on changing dynamics. Even looked into the birth defects issue. All isn't what it appears at first glance.
posted on 1/12/21
comment by Jinja Ninja (U19849)
posted 32 minutes ago
comment by GregOle (U1192)
posted 1 hour, 14 minutes ago
Controversial opinion but isn't it ironic how the majority of Muslims are massively homophobic but will quite happily marry their own cousins as they don't want to marry outside the family.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is controversial because you made it up?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To an extent he’s correct! There’s a different % of same blood marriages depending on which country you look at, but it isn’t always the “majority”
posted on 1/12/21
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 30 minutes ago
As of 2003, an average of 45% of married couples were related in the Arab world.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Arab world and Africa too has certain figures. I'm not disputing the figures for a continent.
The issue here was the assertion of Muslims and view of homosexuality and cousin marriages.
I was married to a white woman for 25 years. I'm asian. We had a disabled child together and the first question was are you cousins 😂
Cousin marriages do exist where I'm from. However the notion of cousin is very different to what we would view as cousin here in the west. I don't know if you have any asian friends. But pretty much everyone is a cousin 😂
Where I live in UK I have "cousins" on the same street I grew up in. Closer inspection shows we are not cousins but have a genealogical link.
My mum and dad would be "cousins" if you asked their families. However neither of their parents were brother/sister and in fact weren't even first cousins. No other members of the households were married to each other. Yet going through our genealogy there was a historical link between our families.
posted on 1/12/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 1/12/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 1/12/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 1/12/21
comment by Shinjury list (U1700)
posted 2 hours, 39 minutes ago
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 20 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by Der Post Nearly Mann (U1270)
posted 6 minutes ago
Been a good read this, and it's great that it didn't descend into Islamophobia or homophobia, thanks everyone
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly because any Islamophobic posters on this forum are also homophobic, and this is a kind of wedge issue that leaves them unable to give one enemy a kicking without appearing to ally with enemy?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think a similar tensions also exists within liberal thinking as well. You can’t defend gay rights and Islam tooth and nail at the same time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair point
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, that's a good observation. This tension doesn't need to be a 'gotcha' for liberals though, if the liberal principles are applied consistently. Liberal thought deals in great depth with the inevitable messiness of having to resolve tensions between different rights that clash with each other. In this instance, I would defend gay rights in terms of the rights of individuals and minorities to live and love as they want to, while also defending Muslims from being collectively demonised and discriminated against on the basis of respect for the individual and understanding that no one should be defined by their race or creed. That doesn't mean defending 'Islam' as a whole. In this context, a liberal should be comfortable criticising aspects of certain iterations of Islam (such as prevailing interpretations in Saudi Arabia) but should also (echoing Rosso's comments) recognise that there are many interpretations of Islam and many, many believers who don't wish to impose prescriptive values on others.
In liberalism there are always tensions and trade-offs but if you try to be intellectually consistent and honest (and generally try to not be a douchebag to specific groups), you're on reasonably safe ground.
posted on 1/12/21
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 2 hours, 56 minutes ago
It is uniquely liberal, as the civil rights of homosexuals are different.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really...what do they get that straights don't...& how should we redress the balance
posted on 1/12/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 1/12/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 1/12/21
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 21 seconds ago
comment by FC Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 2 hours, 56 minutes ago
It is uniquely liberal, as the civil rights of homosexuals are different.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really...what do they get that straights don't...& how should we redress the balance
----------------------------------------------------------------------
🍆
----------------------------------------------------------------------
well...i'm no expert...but looks like it's going to hurt
Page 12 of 13
9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13