comment by Clockwork Red: Jadon and the Argonauts (U4892)
posted 6 minutes ago
So something that happens naturally in humans is against human nature? Makes sense.
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The argument is that it’s human nature to procreate, and homosexuality goes against that. It’s obviously daft, but that is the argument.

comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by Glazers_Out (SE85) (U21241)
posted 10 minutes ago
Imagine believing in made up fairies in the sky 😂
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Its no different to wearing your lucky pants on match day.
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Which is awkward when it's the wife's turn to use them.

Arrested Development apparently.

Crap band anyway.

comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Clockwork Red: Jadon and the Argonauts (U4892)
posted 6 minutes ago
So something that happens naturally in humans is against human nature? Makes sense.
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The argument is that it’s human nature to procreate, and homosexuality goes against that. It’s obviously daft, but that is the argument.
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It's a rubbish argument from any angle you look at it. Neither homo- nor heterosexual behaviours are exclusive to humans.

Really? You mean like sending most if the manufacturing jobs in the world to China would improve the regime's human rights record?
That's what we were told.
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Depends if we are talking about the regimes or the populations themselves SoQ

We used to have a gay cat, not full on but definately bi-curious.

ioag, for sure. Though whether attributing it as natural to humans or animals as a whole, I don’t think those appeals have any value.

Similar appeals to nature have been made for rape, murder and paedophillia, and they don’t hold any weight as moral arguments.

comment by renoog (U4449)
posted 5 minutes ago
Really? You mean like sending most if the manufacturing jobs in the world to China would improve the regime's human rights record?
That's what we were told.
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Depends if we are talking about the regimes or the populations themselves SoQ
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Both. Has there been an increase in HRs by government edict? Has there been any large movement by the populace for improved HRs? Please don't include the HK movement. Or the Tianamin Square (years before our jobs were given to them.

comment by renoog (U4449)
posted 2 hours, 8 minutes ago
Which brings us back to the question about whether secular organisations like FIFA and the FA should be pushing values that are incompatible with values held by states that they're awarding tournaments to or sending teams to compete with. The £ will win in the end, of course.
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The flip side could also be that, hosting tournaments in those places and bringing them into the fray will increase their exposure to external values and accelerate the process of cultural shift.

I imagine that, for example, Mo Salah's presence in the Premier League acts as a window into European football + values for a huge no. of Egyptians. Contrast that to the influence of their previous national hero Aboutrika.
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Hi renoog.

Is that really applicable to Qatar, though?

I mean, the country has the highest per capita income in the world. They have a massive foreign workforce whom their government treats as inferior beings.

Their own citizens can get out and experience other cultures more than any other, and bring those experiences back home with them. Hosting a few thousand football yobs over a few weeks hardly seems to be the kind of exposure to foreign cultures that's likely to make them see what they're missing out on culturally.

Hosting a few thousand football yobs over a few weeks hardly seems to be the kind of exposure to foreign cultures that's likely to make them see what they're missing out on culturally.

—

But there will be more than just England fans there…

Both. Has there been an increase in HRs by government edict? Has there been any large movement by the populace for improved HRs? Please don't include the HK movement. Or the Tianamin Square (years before our jobs were given to them.
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I think so, I can't cite any research to back this up but I look at S. Arabia for example and I definitely get a palpable sense of rapid cultural shift in recent years, which is fuelled by increased exposure (probably mostly digitally) to western norms. Can't speak for China as I don't know enough about day-to-day life there.

comment by renoog (U4449)
posted 2 minutes ago
Both. Has there been an increase in HRs by government edict? Has there been any large movement by the populace for improved HRs? Please don't include the HK movement. Or the Tianamin Square (years before our jobs were given to them.
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I think so, I can't cite any research to back this up but I look at S. Arabia for example and I definitely get a palpable sense of rapid cultural shift in recent years, which is fuelled by increased exposure (probably mostly digitally) to western norms. Can't speak for China as I don't know enough about day-to-day life there.
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You've heard the stories about the Uighurs, though? And the HK democracy movement?

comment by Boris 'Inky’ Gibson (U5901)
posted 22 minutes ago
We used to have a gay cat, not full on but definately bi-curious.
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My three dugs are similar, all males and will mount anything

Saudi has opened up for limited tourism.

For years they wouldn't allow it despite it being a pre-requisite for sitting on the UN Security Council of which they are a member.

No one had the balls to enforce the rule though, just like no one attributes any of the blame for 9/11 on them despite overwhealming evidence.

Hi renoog.

Is that really applicable to Qatar, though?

I mean, the country has the highest per capita income in the world. They have a massive foreign workforce whom their government treats as inferior beings.

Their own citizens can get out and experience other cultures more than any other, and bring those experiences back home with them. Hosting a few thousand football yobs over a few weeks hardly seems to be the kind of exposure to foreign cultures that's likely to make them see what they're missing out on culturally.
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IOAG

Probably not applicable to such a small country over such a small timeframe, but I think longer term, which is a more progressing influence, being shunned by the outside world and developing an insular outlook, or being invited into the fold and allowing the osmosis of ideas and cultures?

comment by Insufferable-Piffle, just in case, I'm so... (U4388)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Boris 'Inky’ Gibson (U5901)
posted 22 minutes ago
We used to have a gay cat, not full on but definately bi-curious.
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My three dugs are similar, all males and will mount anything
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Our cat used to try and mount our other male cat, usually when we had guests round.

I think in the case of Saudi Arabia it might be more a case that Bin Salman was originally supported by the West because he was perceived to be more in favour of a cultural opening. The uproar over the Khashoggi murder may have given them the leverage to push for quicker reforms.

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
comment by Der Post Nearly Mann (U1270)
posted 6 minutes ago
Been a good read this, and it's great that it didn't descend into Islamophobia or homophobia, thanks everyone
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Possibly because any Islamophobic posters on this forum are also homophobic, and this is a kind of wedge issue that leaves them unable to give one enemy a kicking without appearing to ally with enemy?
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This. I am so conflicted.

comment by son of quebec (U8127)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by renoog (U4449)
posted 2 minutes ago
Both. Has there been an increase in HRs by government edict? Has there been any large movement by the populace for improved HRs? Please don't include the HK movement. Or the Tianamin Square (years before our jobs were given to them.
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I think so, I can't cite any research to back this up but I look at S. Arabia for example and I definitely get a palpable sense of rapid cultural shift in recent years, which is fuelled by increased exposure (probably mostly digitally) to western norms. Can't speak for China as I don't know enough about day-to-day life there.
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You've heard the stories about the Uighurs, though? And the HK democracy movement?
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Yeah, but I mean it's hard for me to comment on whether closer economic ties with China have helped or worsened the situation as I don't know, my original point was more about conservative populations and how they can shift over time through outside exposure. When I look at general social trends in parts of Africa, Asia, S. America etc., I see some rapid progress, quicker than Europe in fact at the equivalent stage of their development. I think part of that must be down to the west being able to promote its culture so successfully across the globe.

renoog, I get you - I just think we might overestimate the power of sport as a driver for change. Also, these tournaments aren't just voted for by the West. Every country with a sports federation in the sport in question has a vote, which means there's plenty of places where they can cast their net whilst making only minor concessions.

In the case of China, if anything the human rights situation has regressed quite noticeably since the Beijing Olympics.

Yeah that's fair IOAG

Out of interest, what does boycotting the World Cup involve? Not consuming anything FIFA-related?

A lot of that Western cultural success is down to economic pressure as well, and even that has its limits. It’s why China represents such a big problem for the West.

comment by renoog (U4449)
posted 4 minutes ago
Yeah that's fair IOAG

Out of interest, what does boycotting the World Cup involve? Not consuming anything FIFA-related?
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I imagine if there was any appetite for boycotting TV coverage around the globe advertisers wouldn't be too happy, and FIFA would have to take other factors into consideration when awarding the finals to a country if they wanted to maintain sponsorship revenue.

Anything with a World Cup logo like lagers and all the other tat as well, if people paying for the license got poor value it'd drive the price down next time

True, Daz.


renoog, on a personal level it means not watching any of the games. I haven't really thought further than that, but I hardly buy any of the big consumer brands that are likely to be sponsoring it anyway. I mostly shop at the greengrocers' across the street and at a local Spanish supermarket chain that has decent own-brand products. I'm not a fashion freak, or a computer/gadget geek, but I'd probably keep an extra eye out to avoid any brands that are involved.

comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 29 minutes ago
True, Daz.


renoog, on a personal level it means not watching any of the games. I haven't really thought further than that, but I hardly buy any of the big consumer brands that are likely to be sponsoring it anyway. I mostly shop at the greengrocers' across the street and at a local Spanish supermarket chain that has decent own-brand products. I'm not a fashion freak, or a computer/gadget geek, but I'd probably keep an extra eye out to avoid any brands that are involved.
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This. Heineken are usually there and Coke.
Oh and I'll be paying for sports channels monthly next year so they know I've cancelled them for the duration of the WC. No big deal, but if a lot if people did likewise it would at least give them food for thought.