comment by manusince52 (U9692)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The latest post is two years ago and has no bearing on this.
Is Jonathan Cook more or less likely than Monbiot, I don't know.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which makes my point; Monbiot has been at this sort of stuff for years. He's a corporate media journalist at the end of the day. It's what we should expect from him. His contributions to our understanding of environmental issues are mostly very good and worth reading. Beyond that... Good luck.
Cook is a very excellent media critic & analyst outside of his primary field of expertise on Israel/Palestine. He's far from the only one that has produced critical essays on Monbiot, but as a former Guardian contributor himself, I find Cook's insight particularly interesting.
I've just read this lengthy essay by former ambassador Craig Murray. On first reading I think I would go as far as to say that this pretty sums up my own views almost verbatim on present events. I may return to it pick the bones but I think this is a very fair and insightful summary, for anyone interested:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2022/03/the-universal-boosting-of-putin/
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame - Newcastle till I’m dismembered (U6426)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame - Newcastle till I’m dismembered (U6426)
posted 1 minute ago
I would most definitely want and expect whoever is sitting down trying to negotiate some kind of peace with Putin to know as much as possible about the history, motives and ulterior aims for this conflict, including the Russian/Putin's perspective on it.
However, when it comes to discussing all these issues, the people who want to know as much as possible in order to reach their own informed conclusions and balanced judgements, there are always camps trying to tell them, G Dubya style, that there's no middle ground to be found and that you're either with them or against them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/02/russian-propaganda-anti-imperialist-left-vladimir-putin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd already read that, thanks. I found Harari's opinion piece from a couple of days ago more insightful.
I'm still going to read and listen to all parties involved and reach my own conclusions.
"You are coming across as an apologist for his attack"
You are coming across as somebody who only hears what he wants to listen to, and as such, anyone who is that blinkered has the potential to be every bit as dangerous as the actual Putin apologists.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So what is your balanced judgement and informed conclusion?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
One of my very first statements on this topic, which you reacted to by calling it whataboutery, was that every war criminal ought to be put before justice, and that includes Putin. I've also said that I unequivocally consider Russia the aggressor.
Your problem, and the problem with a lot of people who are entrenched in their views as you, is that anything that isn't worded how you want it to be worded, or that any voice that says, hold on a minute, why don't we consider everything that's involved here, is automatically taken as being the direct opposite of your views.
As I stated, it's the GW doctrine. And, ironically enough, I wrote that without even seeing your post, which appeared directly in front of mine and which you posted while I was busy writing my own.
Hi Berba,
I've read the Craig Murray link you put up and found it very interesting.
The first thing I would say is that he has opened my partly closed eyes to the part armaments firms have played in fortifying Nato. And fully opened them to the comparative weakness of the Russian military.
I agree about the Iraq war, after all I am a Guardian reader, but not interested in it currently as it has no direct bearing on this conflict. It is something to be persued separately.
I am very pleased to see that he blames Russia for this, and it's something I think worth repeating, so I do
comment by it'sonlyagame - Newcastle till I’m dismembered (U6426)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame - Newcastle till I’m dismembered (U6426)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame - Newcastle till I’m dismembered (U6426)
posted 1 minute ago
I would most definitely want and expect whoever is sitting down trying to negotiate some kind of peace with Putin to know as much as possible about the history, motives and ulterior aims for this conflict, including the Russian/Putin's perspective on it.
However, when it comes to discussing all these issues, the people who want to know as much as possible in order to reach their own informed conclusions and balanced judgements, there are always camps trying to tell them, G Dubya style, that there's no middle ground to be found and that you're either with them or against them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/02/russian-propaganda-anti-imperialist-left-vladimir-putin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd already read that, thanks. I found Harari's opinion piece from a couple of days ago more insightful.
I'm still going to read and listen to all parties involved and reach my own conclusions.
"You are coming across as an apologist for his attack"
You are coming across as somebody who only hears what he wants to listen to, and as such, anyone who is that blinkered has the potential to be every bit as dangerous as the actual Putin apologists.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So what is your balanced judgement and informed conclusion?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
One of my very first statements on this topic, which you reacted to by calling it whataboutery, was that every war criminal ought to be put before justice, and that includes Putin. I've also said that I unequivocally consider Russia the aggressor.
Your problem, and the problem with a lot of people who are entrenched in their views as you, is that anything that isn't worded how you want it to be worded, or that any voice that says, hold on a minute, why don't we consider everything that's involved here, is automatically taken as being the direct opposite of your views.
As I stated, it's the GW doctrine. And, ironically enough, I wrote that without even seeing your post, which appeared directly in front of mine and which you posted while I was busy writing my own.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
MM, I feel my problem then is also your problem
Berba
Thanks for the links, I've been quiet on the matter here mainly because my knowledge of geopolitics and the history of Russia/Ukraine is very minimal. I'm incredibly sceptical of the western media so have tried my best to get as much of a fair and balanced view on the whole situation as possible which is very difficult. What you've been saying has been pretty much my view on things (but like I said I know very little and wouldn't want people to take my word on the matter) and even if it were incorrect I think it's healthy to discuss the matters rather than delete comments because someone disagrees.
Most people on this forum doesn't even seem to understand how football works so it's been quite funny/worrying to find that we have so many experts on the current situation in Ukraine.
BTW, have you ever heard of a book called The Jakarta Method? A friend of mine wrote it, haven't got round to reading it yet but reckon it might be something you'd enjoy.
Hi mu82
Careful, or you'll get yourself slandered & filtered by Researcher in Chief, Robb!
I've not heard of the book, though I'd guessing by the name it may relate to the US/UK support for Suharto in Indonesia (and then support for his mass slaughter in East Timor)?
Thanks for the recommendation. I'll have a google later on.
comment by 🇺🇦 Boris 'Inky' Gibson 🇺🇦 (U5901)
posted 6 hours, 38 minutes ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 1 hour, 13 minutes ago
Russia already borders two nato countries. If you believe this is about nato, you’ve fallen for propaganda or are being deliberately contrarian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Belarus, Russia's puppet, borders a further 4 NATO countries.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Even more reason to feel threatened.
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 30 minutes ago
MM, I feel my problem then is also your problem
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"But there are people justifying it, though not you Berba. But I have read that criticising it is hypocrisy, so are we to applaud it."
----
Ok, so not Berba. Who here?
"You are coming across as an apologist for his attack"
---
Ah, so obviously me. Which statement of mine is it that makes me appear to be a Putin apologist? And, how does anything I said stack up against my stated views about Putin and the role of Russia as the aggressor in this war?
"There is no middle ground"
---
This is the GW Bush doctrine almost word for word, and an almost perfect definition of entrenchment. It's you who doesn't seem to spare a single thought to any view that isn't your own.
So, perhaps you could be more specific about how my views are entrenched.
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 3 hours, 45 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 3 hours, 46 minutes ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 15 minutes ago
Russia already borders two nato countries. If you believe this is about nato, you’ve fallen for propaganda or are being deliberately contrarian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Judging by the fetishisation on here of Zelenskyy and the Nanzi factions fighting against Russia, I’m not the one falling for the propaganda.
Both nations and leaders have troubling truths. This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate but the urge to conquer land for the sake of conquering isn’t the causation of this war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He is attacking another country and killing people for no good reason. Reasons yes, but not good.
The fact we and others have behaved badly in the past has no bearing on this situation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
“This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate”
I’m guessing you missed that line in my response?
FYI the bad that’s happened in the past is still happening right now.
He wouldn't dare. He knows that if he fires off a nuke then NATO will increase his broadband rates by $1.50 a month.
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 2 hours, 23 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 3 hours, 45 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 3 hours, 46 minutes ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 15 minutes ago
Russia already borders two nato countries. If you believe this is about nato, you’ve fallen for propaganda or are being deliberately contrarian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Judging by the fetishisation on here of Zelenskyy and the Nanzi factions fighting against Russia, I’m not the one falling for the propaganda.
Both nations and leaders have troubling truths. This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate but the urge to conquer land for the sake of conquering isn’t the causation of this war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He is attacking another country and killing people for no good reason. Reasons yes, but not good.
The fact we and others have behaved badly in the past has no bearing on this situation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
“This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate”
I’m guessing you missed that line in my response?
FYI the bad that’s happened in the past is still happening right now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI I'm tired of explaining I want this post to be about the situation in Ukraine, and the way out of it. Not about problems elsewhere that can be addressed by anyone who wants to in an article.
comment by it'sonlyagame - Newcastle till I’m dismembered (U6426)
posted 2 hours, 27 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 30 minutes ago
MM, I feel my problem then is also your problem
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"But there are people justifying it, though not you Berba. But I have read that criticising it is hypocrisy, so are we to applaud it."
----
Ok, so not Berba. Who here?
"You are coming across as an apologist for his attack"
---
Ah, so obviously me. Which statement of mine is it that makes me appear to be a Putin apologist? And, how does anything I said stack up against my stated views about Putin and the role of Russia as the aggressor in this war?
"There is no middle ground"
---
This is the GW Bush doctrine almost word for word, and an almost perfect definition of entrenchment. It's you who doesn't seem to spare a single thought to any view that isn't your own.
So, perhaps you could be more specific about how my views are entrenched.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are not entrenched in your views, can you point to the part they are changing. Also see my reply to Kung Fu just above
https://newrepublic.com/article/165562/nato-critics-predicted-russia-putin-belligerence-ukraine?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=tnr_daily
The article above is interesting, and shows I listen to other views.
But it does not change Putins culpability.
Or what I want the article to be about
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 2 hours, 23 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 3 hours, 45 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 3 hours, 46 minutes ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 15 minutes ago
Russia already borders two nato countries. If you believe this is about nato, you’ve fallen for propaganda or are being deliberately contrarian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Judging by the fetishisation on here of Zelenskyy and the Nanzi factions fighting against Russia, I’m not the one falling for the propaganda.
Both nations and leaders have troubling truths. This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate but the urge to conquer land for the sake of conquering isn’t the causation of this war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He is attacking another country and killing people for no good reason. Reasons yes, but not good.
The fact we and others have behaved badly in the past has no bearing on this situation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
“This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate”
I’m guessing you missed that line in my response?
FYI the bad that’s happened in the past is still happening right now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI I'm tired of explaining I want this post to be about the situation in Ukraine, and the way out of it. Not about problems elsewhere that can be addressed by anyone who wants to in an article.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Incidentally Newsguard said Naazi claims about Ukraine were fake news.
President Vladimir Putin has said that Russia's military operations in Ukraine were going according to plan and praised its soldiers.
"I want to say that the special military operation is proceeding strictly in line with the timetable. According to plan. All the tasks that have been set are being successfully resolved,"
-------------------
OK then lying sack of excrement. You'll be dead soon anyway.
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 36 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 2 hours, 23 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 3 hours, 45 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 3 hours, 46 minutes ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 15 minutes ago
Russia already borders two nato countries. If you believe this is about nato, you’ve fallen for propaganda or are being deliberately contrarian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Judging by the fetishisation on here of Zelenskyy and the Nanzi factions fighting against Russia, I’m not the one falling for the propaganda.
Both nations and leaders have troubling truths. This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate but the urge to conquer land for the sake of conquering isn’t the causation of this war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He is attacking another country and killing people for no good reason. Reasons yes, but not good.
The fact we and others have behaved badly in the past has no bearing on this situation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
“This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate”
I’m guessing you missed that line in my response?
FYI the bad that’s happened in the past is still happening right now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI I'm tired of explaining I want this post to be about the situation in Ukraine, and the way out of it. Not about problems elsewhere that can be addressed by anyone who wants to in an article.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Ukraine is a chess piece in a larger global picture. It's all intertwined. It's hard to discuss the way out without talking about the other chess pieces.
Let's stick to the Ukraine for now though...
Things to consider:
With every action their is a reaction and the size of that reaction in this case depends on the mental stability of a maniac like Putin. Placing more missiles on his door step is part of the provocation for war.
Something which hasn't been discussed is the discovery of natural gas on the Ukrainian coastline (including Crimea).
It's estimated that there is 2 trillion cubic meters worth of natural gas under the ocean and this is a direct threat to Russia's economy. This is part of the reason Putin invaded Crimea, taking over 80% of that discovery.
Another reason is the strategic geography of the Ukraine. If the Ukraine becomes a NATO member state, then Russia has a border of almost entirely flat land to defend against any advancing armies. With the Ukraine currently not being a member state any opposition would have to contend with natural barriers like the Carpathian Mountains.
As I've stated before the way out in my opinion is to stop the advance of NATO, natural gas and geography maybe other motivators for war but Russia's national security being under threat with nukes on their doorstep is a direct provocation. People are now surprised at a mad-mans reaction.
As horrific as this invasion is, it could be a lot worse for humanity. Imagine Russia didn't invade Ukraine and instead they decided to go tit4tat by placing nuclear missiles in Mexico.
Incidentally Newsguard said Naazi claims about Ukraine were fake news.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/christopherm51/neo-nazi-group-facebook
https://www.opindia.com/2022/02/ukrainian-national-guard-neo-nazi-unit-greasing-bullets-with-pig-fat-against-muslim-chechen-fighters-twitter-allows-it/
https://twitter.com/consent_factory/status/1498257865693405185?s=21
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 1 hour, 42 minutes ago
If you are not entrenched in your views, can you point to the part they are changing. Also see my reply to Kung Fu just above
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your reply to KFC says "I want this post to be about the situation in Ukraine, and the way out of it."
My first post here today said this:
"I would most definitely want and expect whoever is sitting down trying to negotiate some kind of peace with Putin to know as much as possible about the history, motives and ulterior aims for this conflict, including the Russian/Putin's perspective on it.
However, when it comes to discussing all these issues, the people who want to know as much as possible in order to reach their own informed conclusions and balanced judgements, there are always camps trying to tell them, G Dubya style, that there's no middle ground to be found and that you're either with them or against them."
According to you (I presume because you thought that comment was specifically aimed at you), trying to better understand the history, motives and ulterior aims equates to being a Putin apologist.
Your accusation is just absolute nonsense.
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 1 hour, 2 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 36 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 2 hours, 23 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 3 hours, 45 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 3 hours, 46 minutes ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 15 minutes ago
Russia already borders two nato countries. If you believe this is about nato, you’ve fallen for propaganda or are being deliberately contrarian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Judging by the fetishisation on here of Zelenskyy and the Nanzi factions fighting against Russia, I’m not the one falling for the propaganda.
Both nations and leaders have troubling truths. This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate but the urge to conquer land for the sake of conquering isn’t the causation of this war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He is attacking another country and killing people for no good reason. Reasons yes, but not good.
The fact we and others have behaved badly in the past has no bearing on this situation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
“This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate”
I’m guessing you missed that line in my response?
FYI the bad that’s happened in the past is still happening right now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI I'm tired of explaining I want this post to be about the situation in Ukraine, and the way out of it. Not about problems elsewhere that can be addressed by anyone who wants to in an article.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Ukraine is a chess piece in a larger global picture. It's all intertwined. It's hard to discuss the way out without talking about the other chess pieces.
Let's stick to the Ukraine for now though...
Things to consider:
With every action their is a reaction and the size of that reaction in this case depends on the mental stability of a maniac like Putin. Placing more missiles on his door step is part of the provocation for war.
Something which hasn't been discussed is the discovery of natural gas on the Ukrainian coastline (including Crimea).
It's estimated that there is 2 trillion cubic meters worth of natural gas under the ocean and this is a direct threat to Russia's economy. This is part of the reason Putin invaded Crimea, taking over 80% of that discovery.
Another reason is the strategic geography of the Ukraine. If the Ukraine becomes a NATO member state, then Russia has a border of almost entirely flat land to defend against any advancing armies. With the Ukraine currently not being a member state any opposition would have to contend with natural barriers like the Carpathian Mountains.
As I've stated before the way out in my opinion is to stop the advance of NATO, natural gas and geography maybe other motivators for war but Russia's national security being under threat with nukes on their doorstep is a direct provocation. People are now surprised at a mad-mans reaction.
As horrific as this invasion is, it could be a lot worse for humanity. Imagine Russia didn't invade Ukraine and instead they decided to go tit4tat by placing nuclear missiles in Mexico.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That is an incredible take. Russia can never be invaded as they have nuclear weapons. The deterrent is being shown to be very effective now. So it wouldn’t matter if the entirety of Russia’s borders had NATO (a defensive force) around it. As long as Russia have the nuclear capability they have they’d fire off a nuke to warm off any invasion.
As for the oil discovery you spoke of, and I’m not saying this in a confrontational way but I didn’t understand your point. Are you saying it’s justified to invade a country if their economy could be threatened by a rich neighbour? If not then I’m not sure of the relevance. If Ukraine can benefit from that discovery then fair play to them. We don’t like countries invading others for oil.
As for ‘nukes on their doorstep’ does that work both ways? Should Russia give up their nukes because Latvia or Kazakhstan or even China decide that’s a security threat?
Ukraine already did that. Didn’t really help them 30 years on. There is zero justification for this invasion and the likes of Sweden and Finland should have our full support if they want to join NATO as they deserve to feel secure when a revitalised imperialist force in Russia starts targeting more countries to add to their orbit. Moldova will be next.
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
Incidentally Newsguard said Naazi claims about Ukraine were fake news.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/christopherm51/neo-nazi-group-facebook
https://www.opindia.com/2022/02/ukrainian-national-guard-neo-nazi-unit-greasing-bullets-with-pig-fat-against-muslim-chechen-fighters-twitter-allows-it/
https://twitter.com/consent_factory/status/1498257865693405185?s=21
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Read Newsguard
comment by Robbb Kanchelskis 🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦 (Please stop the floods Mother Nature 😞) (U22716)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 1 hour, 2 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 36 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 2 hours, 23 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 3 hours, 45 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 3 hours, 46 minutes ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 15 minutes ago
Russia already borders two nato countries. If you believe this is about nato, you’ve fallen for propaganda or are being deliberately contrarian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Judging by the fetishisation on here of Zelenskyy and the Nanzi factions fighting against Russia, I’m not the one falling for the propaganda.
Both nations and leaders have troubling truths. This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate but the urge to conquer land for the sake of conquering isn’t the causation of this war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He is attacking another country and killing people for no good reason. Reasons yes, but not good.
The fact we and others have behaved badly in the past has no bearing on this situation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
“This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate”
I’m guessing you missed that line in my response?
FYI the bad that’s happened in the past is still happening right now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI I'm tired of explaining I want this post to be about the situation in Ukraine, and the way out of it. Not about problems elsewhere that can be addressed by anyone who wants to in an article.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Ukraine is a chess piece in a larger global picture. It's all intertwined. It's hard to discuss the way out without talking about the other chess pieces.
Let's stick to the Ukraine for now though...
Things to consider:
With every action their is a reaction and the size of that reaction in this case depends on the mental stability of a maniac like Putin. Placing more missiles on his door step is part of the provocation for war.
Something which hasn't been discussed is the discovery of natural gas on the Ukrainian coastline (including Crimea).
It's estimated that there is 2 trillion cubic meters worth of natural gas under the ocean and this is a direct threat to Russia's economy. This is part of the reason Putin invaded Crimea, taking over 80% of that discovery.
Another reason is the strategic geography of the Ukraine. If the Ukraine becomes a NATO member state, then Russia has a border of almost entirely flat land to defend against any advancing armies. With the Ukraine currently not being a member state any opposition would have to contend with natural barriers like the Carpathian Mountains.
As I've stated before the way out in my opinion is to stop the advance of NATO, natural gas and geography maybe other motivators for war but Russia's national security being under threat with nukes on their doorstep is a direct provocation. People are now surprised at a mad-mans reaction.
As horrific as this invasion is, it could be a lot worse for humanity. Imagine Russia didn't invade Ukraine and instead they decided to go tit4tat by placing nuclear missiles in Mexico.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That is an incredible take. Russia can never be invaded as they have nuclear weapons. The deterrent is being shown to be very effective now. So it wouldn’t matter if the entirety of Russia’s borders had NATO (a defensive force) around it. As long as Russia have the nuclear capability they have they’d fire off a nuke to warm off any invasion.
As for the oil discovery you spoke of, and I’m not saying this in a confrontational way but I didn’t understand your point. Are you saying it’s justified to invade a country if their economy could be threatened by a rich neighbour? If not then I’m not sure of the relevance. If Ukraine can benefit from that discovery then fair play to them. We don’t like countries invading others for oil.
As for ‘nukes on their doorstep’ does that work both ways? Should Russia give up their nukes because Latvia or Kazakhstan or even China decide that’s a security threat?
Ukraine already did that. Didn’t really help them 30 years on. There is zero justification for this invasion and the likes of Sweden and Finland should have our full support if they want to join NATO as they deserve to feel secure when a revitalised imperialist force in Russia starts targeting more countries to add to their orbit. Moldova will be next.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
👍
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by United we win (U19958)
posted 1 minute ago
Maybe with energy crisis time to go back to coal etc for time being like Germany are, so that reliance on Russian gas can be mitigated
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No. As bad as the Ukrainians are suffering the entire planet will suffer if we fack up the environment even more.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
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Anyone anxious?
Page 14 of 15
11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15
posted on 3/3/22
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The latest post is two years ago and has no bearing on this.
Is Jonathan Cook more or less likely than Monbiot, I don't know.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which makes my point; Monbiot has been at this sort of stuff for years. He's a corporate media journalist at the end of the day. It's what we should expect from him. His contributions to our understanding of environmental issues are mostly very good and worth reading. Beyond that... Good luck.
Cook is a very excellent media critic & analyst outside of his primary field of expertise on Israel/Palestine. He's far from the only one that has produced critical essays on Monbiot, but as a former Guardian contributor himself, I find Cook's insight particularly interesting.
I've just read this lengthy essay by former ambassador Craig Murray. On first reading I think I would go as far as to say that this pretty sums up my own views almost verbatim on present events. I may return to it pick the bones but I think this is a very fair and insightful summary, for anyone interested:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2022/03/the-universal-boosting-of-putin/
posted on 3/3/22
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame - Newcastle till I’m dismembered (U6426)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame - Newcastle till I’m dismembered (U6426)
posted 1 minute ago
I would most definitely want and expect whoever is sitting down trying to negotiate some kind of peace with Putin to know as much as possible about the history, motives and ulterior aims for this conflict, including the Russian/Putin's perspective on it.
However, when it comes to discussing all these issues, the people who want to know as much as possible in order to reach their own informed conclusions and balanced judgements, there are always camps trying to tell them, G Dubya style, that there's no middle ground to be found and that you're either with them or against them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/02/russian-propaganda-anti-imperialist-left-vladimir-putin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd already read that, thanks. I found Harari's opinion piece from a couple of days ago more insightful.
I'm still going to read and listen to all parties involved and reach my own conclusions.
"You are coming across as an apologist for his attack"
You are coming across as somebody who only hears what he wants to listen to, and as such, anyone who is that blinkered has the potential to be every bit as dangerous as the actual Putin apologists.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So what is your balanced judgement and informed conclusion?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
One of my very first statements on this topic, which you reacted to by calling it whataboutery, was that every war criminal ought to be put before justice, and that includes Putin. I've also said that I unequivocally consider Russia the aggressor.
Your problem, and the problem with a lot of people who are entrenched in their views as you, is that anything that isn't worded how you want it to be worded, or that any voice that says, hold on a minute, why don't we consider everything that's involved here, is automatically taken as being the direct opposite of your views.
As I stated, it's the GW doctrine. And, ironically enough, I wrote that without even seeing your post, which appeared directly in front of mine and which you posted while I was busy writing my own.
posted on 3/3/22
Hi Berba,
I've read the Craig Murray link you put up and found it very interesting.
The first thing I would say is that he has opened my partly closed eyes to the part armaments firms have played in fortifying Nato. And fully opened them to the comparative weakness of the Russian military.
I agree about the Iraq war, after all I am a Guardian reader, but not interested in it currently as it has no direct bearing on this conflict. It is something to be persued separately.
I am very pleased to see that he blames Russia for this, and it's something I think worth repeating, so I do
posted on 3/3/22
comment by it'sonlyagame - Newcastle till I’m dismembered (U6426)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame - Newcastle till I’m dismembered (U6426)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame - Newcastle till I’m dismembered (U6426)
posted 1 minute ago
I would most definitely want and expect whoever is sitting down trying to negotiate some kind of peace with Putin to know as much as possible about the history, motives and ulterior aims for this conflict, including the Russian/Putin's perspective on it.
However, when it comes to discussing all these issues, the people who want to know as much as possible in order to reach their own informed conclusions and balanced judgements, there are always camps trying to tell them, G Dubya style, that there's no middle ground to be found and that you're either with them or against them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/02/russian-propaganda-anti-imperialist-left-vladimir-putin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd already read that, thanks. I found Harari's opinion piece from a couple of days ago more insightful.
I'm still going to read and listen to all parties involved and reach my own conclusions.
"You are coming across as an apologist for his attack"
You are coming across as somebody who only hears what he wants to listen to, and as such, anyone who is that blinkered has the potential to be every bit as dangerous as the actual Putin apologists.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So what is your balanced judgement and informed conclusion?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
One of my very first statements on this topic, which you reacted to by calling it whataboutery, was that every war criminal ought to be put before justice, and that includes Putin. I've also said that I unequivocally consider Russia the aggressor.
Your problem, and the problem with a lot of people who are entrenched in their views as you, is that anything that isn't worded how you want it to be worded, or that any voice that says, hold on a minute, why don't we consider everything that's involved here, is automatically taken as being the direct opposite of your views.
As I stated, it's the GW doctrine. And, ironically enough, I wrote that without even seeing your post, which appeared directly in front of mine and which you posted while I was busy writing my own.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
MM, I feel my problem then is also your problem
posted on 3/3/22
Berba
Thanks for the links, I've been quiet on the matter here mainly because my knowledge of geopolitics and the history of Russia/Ukraine is very minimal. I'm incredibly sceptical of the western media so have tried my best to get as much of a fair and balanced view on the whole situation as possible which is very difficult. What you've been saying has been pretty much my view on things (but like I said I know very little and wouldn't want people to take my word on the matter) and even if it were incorrect I think it's healthy to discuss the matters rather than delete comments because someone disagrees.
Most people on this forum doesn't even seem to understand how football works so it's been quite funny/worrying to find that we have so many experts on the current situation in Ukraine.
BTW, have you ever heard of a book called The Jakarta Method? A friend of mine wrote it, haven't got round to reading it yet but reckon it might be something you'd enjoy.
posted on 3/3/22
Hi mu82
Careful, or you'll get yourself slandered & filtered by Researcher in Chief, Robb!
I've not heard of the book, though I'd guessing by the name it may relate to the US/UK support for Suharto in Indonesia (and then support for his mass slaughter in East Timor)?
Thanks for the recommendation. I'll have a google later on.
posted on 3/3/22
comment by 🇺🇦 Boris 'Inky' Gibson 🇺🇦 (U5901)
posted 6 hours, 38 minutes ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 1 hour, 13 minutes ago
Russia already borders two nato countries. If you believe this is about nato, you’ve fallen for propaganda or are being deliberately contrarian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Belarus, Russia's puppet, borders a further 4 NATO countries.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Even more reason to feel threatened.
posted on 3/3/22
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 30 minutes ago
MM, I feel my problem then is also your problem
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"But there are people justifying it, though not you Berba. But I have read that criticising it is hypocrisy, so are we to applaud it."
----
Ok, so not Berba. Who here?
"You are coming across as an apologist for his attack"
---
Ah, so obviously me. Which statement of mine is it that makes me appear to be a Putin apologist? And, how does anything I said stack up against my stated views about Putin and the role of Russia as the aggressor in this war?
"There is no middle ground"
---
This is the GW Bush doctrine almost word for word, and an almost perfect definition of entrenchment. It's you who doesn't seem to spare a single thought to any view that isn't your own.
So, perhaps you could be more specific about how my views are entrenched.
posted on 3/3/22
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 3 hours, 45 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 3 hours, 46 minutes ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 15 minutes ago
Russia already borders two nato countries. If you believe this is about nato, you’ve fallen for propaganda or are being deliberately contrarian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Judging by the fetishisation on here of Zelenskyy and the Nanzi factions fighting against Russia, I’m not the one falling for the propaganda.
Both nations and leaders have troubling truths. This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate but the urge to conquer land for the sake of conquering isn’t the causation of this war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He is attacking another country and killing people for no good reason. Reasons yes, but not good.
The fact we and others have behaved badly in the past has no bearing on this situation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
“This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate”
I’m guessing you missed that line in my response?
FYI the bad that’s happened in the past is still happening right now.
posted on 3/3/22
He wouldn't dare. He knows that if he fires off a nuke then NATO will increase his broadband rates by $1.50 a month.
posted on 3/3/22
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 2 hours, 23 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 3 hours, 45 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 3 hours, 46 minutes ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 15 minutes ago
Russia already borders two nato countries. If you believe this is about nato, you’ve fallen for propaganda or are being deliberately contrarian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Judging by the fetishisation on here of Zelenskyy and the Nanzi factions fighting against Russia, I’m not the one falling for the propaganda.
Both nations and leaders have troubling truths. This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate but the urge to conquer land for the sake of conquering isn’t the causation of this war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He is attacking another country and killing people for no good reason. Reasons yes, but not good.
The fact we and others have behaved badly in the past has no bearing on this situation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
“This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate”
I’m guessing you missed that line in my response?
FYI the bad that’s happened in the past is still happening right now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI I'm tired of explaining I want this post to be about the situation in Ukraine, and the way out of it. Not about problems elsewhere that can be addressed by anyone who wants to in an article.
posted on 3/3/22
comment by it'sonlyagame - Newcastle till I’m dismembered (U6426)
posted 2 hours, 27 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 30 minutes ago
MM, I feel my problem then is also your problem
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"But there are people justifying it, though not you Berba. But I have read that criticising it is hypocrisy, so are we to applaud it."
----
Ok, so not Berba. Who here?
"You are coming across as an apologist for his attack"
---
Ah, so obviously me. Which statement of mine is it that makes me appear to be a Putin apologist? And, how does anything I said stack up against my stated views about Putin and the role of Russia as the aggressor in this war?
"There is no middle ground"
---
This is the GW Bush doctrine almost word for word, and an almost perfect definition of entrenchment. It's you who doesn't seem to spare a single thought to any view that isn't your own.
So, perhaps you could be more specific about how my views are entrenched.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are not entrenched in your views, can you point to the part they are changing. Also see my reply to Kung Fu just above
posted on 3/3/22
https://newrepublic.com/article/165562/nato-critics-predicted-russia-putin-belligerence-ukraine?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=tnr_daily
posted on 3/3/22
The article above is interesting, and shows I listen to other views.
But it does not change Putins culpability.
Or what I want the article to be about
posted on 3/3/22
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 2 hours, 23 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 3 hours, 45 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 3 hours, 46 minutes ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 15 minutes ago
Russia already borders two nato countries. If you believe this is about nato, you’ve fallen for propaganda or are being deliberately contrarian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Judging by the fetishisation on here of Zelenskyy and the Nanzi factions fighting against Russia, I’m not the one falling for the propaganda.
Both nations and leaders have troubling truths. This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate but the urge to conquer land for the sake of conquering isn’t the causation of this war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He is attacking another country and killing people for no good reason. Reasons yes, but not good.
The fact we and others have behaved badly in the past has no bearing on this situation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
“This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate”
I’m guessing you missed that line in my response?
FYI the bad that’s happened in the past is still happening right now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI I'm tired of explaining I want this post to be about the situation in Ukraine, and the way out of it. Not about problems elsewhere that can be addressed by anyone who wants to in an article.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Incidentally Newsguard said Naazi claims about Ukraine were fake news.
posted on 3/3/22
President Vladimir Putin has said that Russia's military operations in Ukraine were going according to plan and praised its soldiers.
"I want to say that the special military operation is proceeding strictly in line with the timetable. According to plan. All the tasks that have been set are being successfully resolved,"
-------------------
OK then lying sack of excrement. You'll be dead soon anyway.
posted on 3/3/22
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 36 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 2 hours, 23 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 3 hours, 45 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 3 hours, 46 minutes ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 15 minutes ago
Russia already borders two nato countries. If you believe this is about nato, you’ve fallen for propaganda or are being deliberately contrarian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Judging by the fetishisation on here of Zelenskyy and the Nanzi factions fighting against Russia, I’m not the one falling for the propaganda.
Both nations and leaders have troubling truths. This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate but the urge to conquer land for the sake of conquering isn’t the causation of this war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He is attacking another country and killing people for no good reason. Reasons yes, but not good.
The fact we and others have behaved badly in the past has no bearing on this situation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
“This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate”
I’m guessing you missed that line in my response?
FYI the bad that’s happened in the past is still happening right now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI I'm tired of explaining I want this post to be about the situation in Ukraine, and the way out of it. Not about problems elsewhere that can be addressed by anyone who wants to in an article.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Ukraine is a chess piece in a larger global picture. It's all intertwined. It's hard to discuss the way out without talking about the other chess pieces.
Let's stick to the Ukraine for now though...
Things to consider:
With every action their is a reaction and the size of that reaction in this case depends on the mental stability of a maniac like Putin. Placing more missiles on his door step is part of the provocation for war.
Something which hasn't been discussed is the discovery of natural gas on the Ukrainian coastline (including Crimea).
It's estimated that there is 2 trillion cubic meters worth of natural gas under the ocean and this is a direct threat to Russia's economy. This is part of the reason Putin invaded Crimea, taking over 80% of that discovery.
Another reason is the strategic geography of the Ukraine. If the Ukraine becomes a NATO member state, then Russia has a border of almost entirely flat land to defend against any advancing armies. With the Ukraine currently not being a member state any opposition would have to contend with natural barriers like the Carpathian Mountains.
As I've stated before the way out in my opinion is to stop the advance of NATO, natural gas and geography maybe other motivators for war but Russia's national security being under threat with nukes on their doorstep is a direct provocation. People are now surprised at a mad-mans reaction.
As horrific as this invasion is, it could be a lot worse for humanity. Imagine Russia didn't invade Ukraine and instead they decided to go tit4tat by placing nuclear missiles in Mexico.
posted on 3/3/22
Incidentally Newsguard said Naazi claims about Ukraine were fake news.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/christopherm51/neo-nazi-group-facebook
https://www.opindia.com/2022/02/ukrainian-national-guard-neo-nazi-unit-greasing-bullets-with-pig-fat-against-muslim-chechen-fighters-twitter-allows-it/
https://twitter.com/consent_factory/status/1498257865693405185?s=21
posted on 3/3/22
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 1 hour, 42 minutes ago
If you are not entrenched in your views, can you point to the part they are changing. Also see my reply to Kung Fu just above
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your reply to KFC says "I want this post to be about the situation in Ukraine, and the way out of it."
My first post here today said this:
"I would most definitely want and expect whoever is sitting down trying to negotiate some kind of peace with Putin to know as much as possible about the history, motives and ulterior aims for this conflict, including the Russian/Putin's perspective on it.
However, when it comes to discussing all these issues, the people who want to know as much as possible in order to reach their own informed conclusions and balanced judgements, there are always camps trying to tell them, G Dubya style, that there's no middle ground to be found and that you're either with them or against them."
According to you (I presume because you thought that comment was specifically aimed at you), trying to better understand the history, motives and ulterior aims equates to being a Putin apologist.
Your accusation is just absolute nonsense.
posted on 3/3/22
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 1 hour, 2 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 36 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 2 hours, 23 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 3 hours, 45 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 3 hours, 46 minutes ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 15 minutes ago
Russia already borders two nato countries. If you believe this is about nato, you’ve fallen for propaganda or are being deliberately contrarian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Judging by the fetishisation on here of Zelenskyy and the Nanzi factions fighting against Russia, I’m not the one falling for the propaganda.
Both nations and leaders have troubling truths. This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate but the urge to conquer land for the sake of conquering isn’t the causation of this war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He is attacking another country and killing people for no good reason. Reasons yes, but not good.
The fact we and others have behaved badly in the past has no bearing on this situation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
“This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate”
I’m guessing you missed that line in my response?
FYI the bad that’s happened in the past is still happening right now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI I'm tired of explaining I want this post to be about the situation in Ukraine, and the way out of it. Not about problems elsewhere that can be addressed by anyone who wants to in an article.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Ukraine is a chess piece in a larger global picture. It's all intertwined. It's hard to discuss the way out without talking about the other chess pieces.
Let's stick to the Ukraine for now though...
Things to consider:
With every action their is a reaction and the size of that reaction in this case depends on the mental stability of a maniac like Putin. Placing more missiles on his door step is part of the provocation for war.
Something which hasn't been discussed is the discovery of natural gas on the Ukrainian coastline (including Crimea).
It's estimated that there is 2 trillion cubic meters worth of natural gas under the ocean and this is a direct threat to Russia's economy. This is part of the reason Putin invaded Crimea, taking over 80% of that discovery.
Another reason is the strategic geography of the Ukraine. If the Ukraine becomes a NATO member state, then Russia has a border of almost entirely flat land to defend against any advancing armies. With the Ukraine currently not being a member state any opposition would have to contend with natural barriers like the Carpathian Mountains.
As I've stated before the way out in my opinion is to stop the advance of NATO, natural gas and geography maybe other motivators for war but Russia's national security being under threat with nukes on their doorstep is a direct provocation. People are now surprised at a mad-mans reaction.
As horrific as this invasion is, it could be a lot worse for humanity. Imagine Russia didn't invade Ukraine and instead they decided to go tit4tat by placing nuclear missiles in Mexico.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That is an incredible take. Russia can never be invaded as they have nuclear weapons. The deterrent is being shown to be very effective now. So it wouldn’t matter if the entirety of Russia’s borders had NATO (a defensive force) around it. As long as Russia have the nuclear capability they have they’d fire off a nuke to warm off any invasion.
As for the oil discovery you spoke of, and I’m not saying this in a confrontational way but I didn’t understand your point. Are you saying it’s justified to invade a country if their economy could be threatened by a rich neighbour? If not then I’m not sure of the relevance. If Ukraine can benefit from that discovery then fair play to them. We don’t like countries invading others for oil.
As for ‘nukes on their doorstep’ does that work both ways? Should Russia give up their nukes because Latvia or Kazakhstan or even China decide that’s a security threat?
Ukraine already did that. Didn’t really help them 30 years on. There is zero justification for this invasion and the likes of Sweden and Finland should have our full support if they want to join NATO as they deserve to feel secure when a revitalised imperialist force in Russia starts targeting more countries to add to their orbit. Moldova will be next.
posted on 3/3/22
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
Incidentally Newsguard said Naazi claims about Ukraine were fake news.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/christopherm51/neo-nazi-group-facebook
https://www.opindia.com/2022/02/ukrainian-national-guard-neo-nazi-unit-greasing-bullets-with-pig-fat-against-muslim-chechen-fighters-twitter-allows-it/
https://twitter.com/consent_factory/status/1498257865693405185?s=21
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Read Newsguard
posted on 3/3/22
comment by Robbb Kanchelskis 🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦 (Please stop the floods Mother Nature 😞) (U22716)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 1 hour, 2 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 36 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 2 hours, 23 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 3 hours, 45 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🙏🏼 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 3 hours, 46 minutes ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 15 minutes ago
Russia already borders two nato countries. If you believe this is about nato, you’ve fallen for propaganda or are being deliberately contrarian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Judging by the fetishisation on here of Zelenskyy and the Nanzi factions fighting against Russia, I’m not the one falling for the propaganda.
Both nations and leaders have troubling truths. This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate but the urge to conquer land for the sake of conquering isn’t the causation of this war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He is attacking another country and killing people for no good reason. Reasons yes, but not good.
The fact we and others have behaved badly in the past has no bearing on this situation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
“This doesn’t make the invasion legitimate”
I’m guessing you missed that line in my response?
FYI the bad that’s happened in the past is still happening right now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI I'm tired of explaining I want this post to be about the situation in Ukraine, and the way out of it. Not about problems elsewhere that can be addressed by anyone who wants to in an article.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Ukraine is a chess piece in a larger global picture. It's all intertwined. It's hard to discuss the way out without talking about the other chess pieces.
Let's stick to the Ukraine for now though...
Things to consider:
With every action their is a reaction and the size of that reaction in this case depends on the mental stability of a maniac like Putin. Placing more missiles on his door step is part of the provocation for war.
Something which hasn't been discussed is the discovery of natural gas on the Ukrainian coastline (including Crimea).
It's estimated that there is 2 trillion cubic meters worth of natural gas under the ocean and this is a direct threat to Russia's economy. This is part of the reason Putin invaded Crimea, taking over 80% of that discovery.
Another reason is the strategic geography of the Ukraine. If the Ukraine becomes a NATO member state, then Russia has a border of almost entirely flat land to defend against any advancing armies. With the Ukraine currently not being a member state any opposition would have to contend with natural barriers like the Carpathian Mountains.
As I've stated before the way out in my opinion is to stop the advance of NATO, natural gas and geography maybe other motivators for war but Russia's national security being under threat with nukes on their doorstep is a direct provocation. People are now surprised at a mad-mans reaction.
As horrific as this invasion is, it could be a lot worse for humanity. Imagine Russia didn't invade Ukraine and instead they decided to go tit4tat by placing nuclear missiles in Mexico.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That is an incredible take. Russia can never be invaded as they have nuclear weapons. The deterrent is being shown to be very effective now. So it wouldn’t matter if the entirety of Russia’s borders had NATO (a defensive force) around it. As long as Russia have the nuclear capability they have they’d fire off a nuke to warm off any invasion.
As for the oil discovery you spoke of, and I’m not saying this in a confrontational way but I didn’t understand your point. Are you saying it’s justified to invade a country if their economy could be threatened by a rich neighbour? If not then I’m not sure of the relevance. If Ukraine can benefit from that discovery then fair play to them. We don’t like countries invading others for oil.
As for ‘nukes on their doorstep’ does that work both ways? Should Russia give up their nukes because Latvia or Kazakhstan or even China decide that’s a security threat?
Ukraine already did that. Didn’t really help them 30 years on. There is zero justification for this invasion and the likes of Sweden and Finland should have our full support if they want to join NATO as they deserve to feel secure when a revitalised imperialist force in Russia starts targeting more countries to add to their orbit. Moldova will be next.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
👍
posted on 3/3/22
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 3/3/22
comment by United we win (U19958)
posted 1 minute ago
Maybe with energy crisis time to go back to coal etc for time being like Germany are, so that reliance on Russian gas can be mitigated
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No. As bad as the Ukrainians are suffering the entire planet will suffer if we fack up the environment even more.
posted on 3/3/22
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
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