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Sympathy for the owner?

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comment by Jonty (U4614)

posted on 23/5/22

comment by The Very Rev Wilko (U21072)
posted 5 minutes ago
If this is correct Jonty then Orta really does need to go - small squads in this league is a recipe for disaster.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
this is what Orta said 2 months ago:

2 months ago:

“I believe in a project that is one of Marcelo Bielsa’s legacies. If you believe in youth development you need to prove it. Our idea is 18 professionals and the other four players all with the under-23s because we believe in youth development and want to give responsibility to the academy,” he said.

“It’s true that it’s risky. It’s true that if you have these four players with more experience perhaps the results in the short-term will be better. But it’s true on the other side that you create a lot of bad ways."

“I create these answers because it’s worth millions long-term for the club. To build players is really important.”

https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/leeds-united-focus-young-players-trimmed-down-squad-victor-orta-1532121

posted on 23/5/22

comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 31 minutes ago
comment by The Very Rev Wilko (U21072)
posted 5 minutes ago
If this is correct Jonty then Orta really does need to go - small squads in this league is a recipe for disaster.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
this is what Orta said 2 months ago:

2 months ago:

“I believe in a project that is one of Marcelo Bielsa’s legacies. If you believe in youth development you need to prove it. Our idea is 18 professionals and the other four players all with the under-23s because we believe in youth development and want to give responsibility to the academy,” he said.

“It’s true that it’s risky. It’s true that if you have these four players with more experience perhaps the results in the short-term will be better. But it’s true on the other side that you create a lot of bad ways."

“I create these answers because it’s worth millions long-term for the club. To build players is really important.”

https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/leeds-united-focus-young-players-trimmed-down-squad-victor-orta-1532121

----------------------------------------------------------------------
I read that as based on Bielsa’s being there…. nothing to suggest that approach will continue in the same vein.
(But true also that it could). So perhaps we just just see what happens/is said in the next two months, rather than looking back 2 months.

comment by Jonty (U4614)

posted on 23/5/22

comment by salonika73 (U4688)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 31 minutes ago
comment by The Very Rev Wilko (U21072)
posted 5 minutes ago
If this is correct Jonty then Orta really does need to go - small squads in this league is a recipe for disaster.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
this is what Orta said 2 months ago:

2 months ago:

“I believe in a project that is one of Marcelo Bielsa’s legacies. If you believe in youth development you need to prove it. Our idea is 18 professionals and the other four players all with the under-23s because we believe in youth development and want to give responsibility to the academy,” he said.

“It’s true that it’s risky. It’s true that if you have these four players with more experience perhaps the results in the short-term will be better. But it’s true on the other side that you create a lot of bad ways."

“I create these answers because it’s worth millions long-term for the club. To build players is really important.”

https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/leeds-united-focus-young-players-trimmed-down-squad-victor-orta-1532121

----------------------------------------------------------------------
I read that as based on Bielsa’s being there…. nothing to suggest that approach will continue in the same vein.
(But true also that it could). So perhaps we just just see what happens/is said in the next two months, rather than looking back 2 months.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bielsa had already left, Orta was specifically talking about how small squad would continue with Marsch there.

"Leeds have faced criticism over their squad size but the director of football says it won’t change under new boss Jesse Marsch"

posted on 23/5/22

comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 36 minutes ago
comment by salonika73 (U4688)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 31 minutes ago
comment by The Very Rev Wilko (U21072)
posted 5 minutes ago
If this is correct Jonty then Orta really does need to go - small squads in this league is a recipe for disaster.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
this is what Orta said 2 months ago:

2 months ago:

“I believe in a project that is one of Marcelo Bielsa’s legacies. If you believe in youth development you need to prove it. Our idea is 18 professionals and the other four players all with the under-23s because we believe in youth development and want to give responsibility to the academy,” he said.

“It’s true that it’s risky. It’s true that if you have these four players with more experience perhaps the results in the short-term will be better. But it’s true on the other side that you create a lot of bad ways."

“I create these answers because it’s worth millions long-term for the club. To build players is really important.”

https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/leeds-united-focus-young-players-trimmed-down-squad-victor-orta-1532121

----------------------------------------------------------------------
I read that as based on Bielsa’s being there…. nothing to suggest that approach will continue in the same vein.
(But true also that it could). So perhaps we just just see what happens/is said in the next two months, rather than looking back 2 months.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bielsa had already left, Orta was specifically talking about how small squad would continue with Marsch there.

"Leeds have faced criticism over their squad size but the director of football says it won’at change under new boss Jesse Marsch"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well if that happens Jonty then I question their sanity.

comment by Jonty (U4614)

posted on 23/5/22

comment by Macca: Emily Bishop's lovechild (U8194)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 36 minutes ago
comment by salonika73 (U4688)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 31 minutes ago
comment by The Very Rev Wilko (U21072)
posted 5 minutes ago
If this is correct Jonty then Orta really does need to go - small squads in this league is a recipe for disaster.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
this is what Orta said 2 months ago:

2 months ago:

“I believe in a project that is one of Marcelo Bielsa’s legacies. If you believe in youth development you need to prove it. Our idea is 18 professionals and the other four players all with the under-23s because we believe in youth development and want to give responsibility to the academy,” he said.

“It’s true that it’s risky. It’s true that if you have these four players with more experience perhaps the results in the short-term will be better. But it’s true on the other side that you create a lot of bad ways."

“I create these answers because it’s worth millions long-term for the club. To build players is really important.”

https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/leeds-united-focus-young-players-trimmed-down-squad-victor-orta-1532121

----------------------------------------------------------------------
I read that as based on Bielsa’s being there…. nothing to suggest that approach will continue in the same vein.
(But true also that it could). So perhaps we just just see what happens/is said in the next two months, rather than looking back 2 months.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bielsa had already left, Orta was specifically talking about how small squad would continue with Marsch there.

"Leeds have faced criticism over their squad size but the director of football says it won’at change under new boss Jesse Marsch"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well if that happens Jonty then I question their sanity.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If we'd have go9ne down then the lesson learnt is, dont have a small squad or you'll get relegated.

But we stayed up, so the lesson learnt is that you can have a small squad and stay up and top quote Bielsa, they call him a madman until his ideas triumph.

AR will be sitting there thinking, "I got it right"

posted on 23/5/22

Ok yes we stayed up on the final game of the season in 17th place so adopting a small squad will earn you that level of success in the Premier league and cause all your fans the most nerve wracking, horrible anxiety... but then the most beautiful joy.... Mmm maybe they're not so daft after all???? 😂

comment by Jonty (U4614)

posted on 23/5/22

comment by Macca: Emily Bishop's lovechild (U8194)
posted 55 seconds ago
Ok yes we stayed up on the final game of the season in 17th place so adopting a small squad will earn you that level of success in the Premier league and cause all your fans the most nerve wracking, horrible anxiety... but then the most beautiful joy.... Mmm maybe they're not so daft after all???? 😂
----------------------------------------------------------------------
AR himself said, goal was to stay up.

People keep saying there is some lesson learnt, but it's pretty clear.
Goal is staying up
AR says we're not going to be spending
Orta says we're going to retain small squad policy
We don't spend, we have small squad, we stay up.

The lesson learnt is what they did succeeded.

I'd love to hear what their goal is for next year. I would wager it will be just like Bates would say "to do better than last season"

posted on 23/5/22

So a GD of - 36 not -37 can go down as improvement next year - well thats ok then, I can rest easy.

posted on 23/5/22

So 16th place will be improvement and I suppose if you offered most Leeds fans that before a ball is kickef we'd probably accept that... but I still think it is a very risky approach and although technically it has worked by the skin of it's teeth, I'm not convinced this is a sustainable blueprint for success in terms of staying in the Premier League for more than a season or two but we will see.

comment by Jonty (U4614)

posted on 23/5/22

comment by Macca: Emily Bishop's lovechild (U8194)
posted 1 minute ago
So 16th place will be improvement and I suppose if you offered most Leeds fans that before a ball is kickef we'd probably accept that... but I still think it is a very risky approach and although technically it has worked by the skin of it's teeth, I'm not convinced this is a sustainable blueprint for success in terms of staying in the Premier League for more than a season or two but we will see.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its all about them not really committing to anything and saying things in such a way that the fans assume and yet they cant be held accountable at the end,

Bates did it all the time, when asked about Thorp Arch, he said "Thorp Arch is a priority"

Priority for what? To buy? Develop, repaint?

Comments like this mean nothing, just as AR's comments yesterday mean nothing. He has said nothing about budget, incoming player numbers, players to be retained etc. and possibly rightly so at this point, but people clasp onto what he says and assume it means new players etc.

posted on 23/5/22

Bates was a classic example of the line Al Pacino says from the film Scarface, "I always tell the truth, even when I'm lieing"

comment by Jonty (U4614)

posted on 23/5/22

comment by Macca: Emily Bishop's lovechild (U8194)
posted 1 minute ago
Bates was a classic example of the line Al Pacino says from the film Scarface, "I always tell the truth, even when I'm lieing"

----------------------------------------------------------------------
When asked about the Delph money being used to buy back Thorp Arch, Bates replied:
"It won't hurt"
fans took that to mean Delph money would be used to buy back TA.

It gave Bates breathing space and he hadn't deceived the fans.

This board do exactly the same.

Listen to their words, not the analysis of the words.

For me what is interesting is what is teh 49ers intentions?

I dont believe they're here to be minority owners and seeing this season and fan dissatisfaction for board will surely be a catalysts for some action and hopefully one away from having multiple owners, each of whom will have different goals.

posted on 23/5/22

I must admit I just assumed The 49ers were going to take full control at the end of this season and Radz would pocket a handsome profit and invest in an Italian football club.

It may still happen this summer but the reaction of Radz yesterday on the pitch and subsequent press releases and possible use of Eddie Gray to smooth over fan disgruntlement with flattering words about the running of Leeds, seems to indicate Radz intention to hold the rheins of power at Elland Road at least one more season.

Unless the 49ers have taken over now and are keeping it quiet and instructing Radz to splash the cash on their behalf so selling clubs don't know we have extra dosh to play with and hike up the prices of the players we're after.

comment by Jonty (U4614)

posted on 23/5/22

comment by Macca: Emily Bishop's lovechild (U8194)
posted 6 minutes ago
I must admit I just assumed The 49ers were going to take full control at the end of this season and Radz would pocket a handsome profit and invest in an Italian football club.

It may still happen this summer but the reaction of Radz yesterday on the pitch and subsequent press releases and possible use of Eddie Gray to smooth over fan disgruntlement with flattering words about the running of Leeds, seems to indicate Radz intention to hold the rheins of power at Elland Road at least one more season.

Unless the 49ers have taken over now and are keeping it quiet and instructing Radz to splash the cash on their behalf so selling clubs don't know we have extra dosh to play with and hike up the prices of the players we're after.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
49ers upped their stake to 44% end of last year and have an option to buy with deadline of jan 2024.

posted on 23/5/22

So potentially 2 more seasons of Radz or even more if 49ers don't take up the option to take full control in Jan 2024.

The old adage of Quit while you're ahead or knowing when to cash your chips would be my motto but maybe he's addicted to all that thrill seeking, risk taking, adrenaline last day of the season,run on the pitch like David Pleat drama that money cannot buy?

comment by Jonty (U4614)

posted on 23/5/22

comment by Macca: Emily Bishop's lovechild (U8194)
posted 10 seconds ago
So potentially 2 more seasons of Radz or even more if 49ers don't take up the option to take full control in Jan 2024.

The old adage of Quit while you're ahead or knowing when to cash your chips would be my motto but maybe he's addicted to all that thrill seeking, risk taking, adrenaline last day of the season,run on the pitch like David Pleat drama that money cannot buy?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think owners want to exit, then worry that they'll miss out on something and so dont sell out completely.

Like I said, I wonder what 49ers goal is?

We hear about how much we've benefited from their expertise, but I'm struggling to see it, they're experts at sales and marketing (allegedly) we still cant get a website that makes it pain free to buy tickets.

posted on 23/5/22

One thing is for sure Jonty, the 49ers involvement in Leeds United is not for altruistic purposes!!!

posted on 24/5/22

Ar bought the club and said he would get us promoted in 5 years. He did.

He did this by massively increasing the wage budget and funding this with a £1,000,000/month loans to the club.

He realised that even then the budget wouldn't be enough to do this with safe options and took a huge risk in appointing Bielsa at great cost.

He then bent over backwards to cater for Bielsa and thus managing to keep Bielsa happy for much much longer than he has at any previous club.

He didn't take the easy option and cash in on Phillips when we narrowly missed out on promotion. That was a brave call.

When Bielsa wanted James he funded the transfer despite his DOF wanting Noa Lang.


Our transfer strategy has probably been too risky. Trying to push forward to quick. By signing players that are undervalued and aiming to maximise their potential where others have failed. This means you can sign a player for half his potential value, however, if it doesn't come off then the player could be worthless. However, Raphinha, White & Bielsa are all signings that were gambles. you can't pick and choose based on hindsight.

i think Firpo was a risk at the wring time though, if we had an alternative steady option then it would have made more sense. Rodrigo is clearly another that shouldn't have happened. Club & Bielsa gambled on resolving his weaknesses because his upside could be massive. I don't think that was ever realistically going to happen though.

We & aR got very lucky this season in a way. But this was always the strategy. To spend themajority of the 2 year budget in the first year which will leave us short of funds in the second season but give us the best chance of surviving. Had we signed Watkins instead of Rodrigo this would have looked much better. We should have signed O'Brien in the summer too. No excuse.

AR also send stupid tweets.

He does tacky things with paper.

But he has funded the transformation of our club from a real low under Cellino (I actually think he was even worse for the club than Bates). He has risked a large chunk of his fortune, which has paid off for him, but also us.

Plenty of mistakes have been made. But other than Jonty, who doesn't make mistakes?

I would be very very careful what you wish for when sacking this board.

The idea that there is an owner out there with the money and the football knowledge is for the birds.

posted on 24/5/22

In simplistic terms, the following aspects of the club have all improved under AR;

Squad
Wage Budget
Transfer Budget
Stadium
Training Ground
Finances
Kits
Sponsorship
Revenue
Community Involvement
Attendances

I genuinely can't think of an area that hasn't improved?

posted on 24/5/22

Faith - the previous incumbents were exceedingly low benchmarks but I get your point.

posted on 24/5/22

Faith - rereading your longer pitch, I think Orta and his 'incomings' has caused most concern amongst fans, especially with 'they've done something in La Liga'
therefore they must be a perfect fit for relatively novice 'PL' club ( 16 years out put us in this category).

I personally am reserving judgement on Radz as I can't quite square whether he is niave ( In English Football terms only), lucky or thowing us a line at times.

Listening to Eddie yesterday further clouded my thinking.

posted on 24/5/22

comment by The Very Rev Wilko (U21072)
posted 8 minutes ago
Faith - rereading your longer pitch, I think Orta and his 'incomings' has caused most concern amongst fans, especially with 'they've done something in La Liga'
therefore they must be a perfect fit for relatively novice 'PL' club ( 16 years out put us in this category).

I personally am reserving judgement on Radz as I can't quite square whether he is niave ( In English Football terms only), lucky or thowing us a line at times.

Listening to Eddie yesterday further clouded my thinking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Orta has made a number of amazing signings, but too many massive failures. That is part and parcel of a high risk high reward strategy though. And without we don't get Raphinha so we have benefited too.

Orta needs to get this summer right though. For me he could still go either way.

I think expectations that clubs shouldn't sign players that don't work is completely unrealistic.

It's also obvious that Bielsa was very difficult to buy for, that excuse has sadly gone now so Orta has to step up this summer.

And yes previous incumbents set a very low benchmark. AR deserves credit for me, but no one is suggesting he deserves a statue. And Bielsa ultimately deserves the majority of the praise.

There are definitely better owners than AR out there. and while AR being the best owner we have had for 20 odd years isn't the highest bar, we can compare him to other owners in the premier league. and I would say he's about mid table.

posted on 24/5/22

Excellent and fair assessment Faith of Radz ownership.
However mine and other Leeds supporters patience with Orta and his high risk strategy of signings has well and truly left the building.

I accept VO has had a tricky job in trying to satisfy Bielsa's exacting new player requirements and there is no other club in the Premier league that has not taken a hit or several hits as a consequence of their DOF's misguided or questionable judgment. But if there was a league table based on DOF's success rate of new signings I'm affraid Orta would be bottom with Everton's DOF pretty close to the bottom too.

After saying all that, when I have seen VO being interviewed, his persona, especially on the Leeds Coming Home documentary, was of a very likeable and passionate about Leeds United fellow. So it may seem contradictory to say it's "nothing personal" after slagging him off left right and centre but unfortunately his record of dud purchases is more of a threat to Leeds United's continued success and survival in the Premier league than AR's performance as majority shareholder/ owner.

Despite the evidence that too much money has been wasted on several if not the majority of Orta's picks, Radz looks like continuing his relationship with his DOF amigo and he will be entrusted with a substantial war chest of funds in this next transfer window.

I hope like all of us V0 has recognised his deficiencies and obvious areas for improvement in his transfer dealings and he is gently persuaded towards more suitable and successful acquisitions this summer.

We wait with baited breath!

posted on 25/5/22

Like I said, not convinced by Orta but think you are being harsh. I would definitely prefer him to Everton's recruiter, whoever that may be.

The policy has clearly been high risk strategy. If it comes off it brings that rapid growth but comes with the risk of wasting money on those that don't work.

Overall we have probably signed players for less than their value. And if you were to get the lot for the amount spend in a bulk package it would be a good deal. This is heavily weighted to a few transfers though. Raphinha, Meslier, Bamford, Klich, Struijk, Gelhardt.

At the end of the day the transfers and strategy worked. It certainly hasn't at Everton.

If this summer doesn't bring a better hit rate I will probably lose patience too.

But at the moment I would say it's not as bad as the perception. Wilkinson always said that a 50% success rate on transfers is pretty good. And if you look at the inflation adjusted transfers we made from that time, the Rodrigo waste is nothing!

I also think that Orta has a few excuses so far. Bielsa one of them. Missing out on some excellent signings such as James at the right time, Barnes, Gvardiol, White (permanent)

i don't want this to sound like praise either.

The article referred to sympathy. I do because I think the criticism is over the top that's all. It shouldn't be as harsh as it is.

posted on 25/5/22

It doesn't really matter what anybody here says or thinks, AR has got us here and like some have said he's done it within the time he said!..

The time before he came was for most off us hell, we had a hard time this season but got over the line!..

He now has to show support for Marsch, but its time for some here to show support for him, he's got us where the leeches before him didn't, and that we should be thankful for!..

He's made mistakes but that's something everybody does!..

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