It wasn't meant to be a hand grenade or stir things up. I haven't done any research, but an article in one of the papers said he/we.had done more to help than Germany, France and others.
I completely accept he has done it to save his own skin.
But sometimes people can do the right thing for the wrong reason.
I have my view known on Boris many times
.
I don't think anyone was attacking you for your post, 52. You even brought up doing it for the wrong reasons at the start. I think we're mainly expanding on the topic, and if the language is a bit venomous, it's because many people absolutely loathe him for the ever greater depths he is dragging the British state down to.
The only thing I'd take issue with, as I said, is the idea that he has been the 'best' (or most steadfast) European leader in his support for Ukraine. Many of the countries neighbouring Russia and/or Ukraine have gone a lot further in matching words with actions, and been more morally / ideologically consistent and politically reliable than the UK. Not just because Johnson will only do what is politically expedient, but because for those countries the threat of Russian aggression is far more tangible, and within the living memory of their electorates.
The narrative from the front bench is that Boris might be a lying cheating criminal but at least he gets the big calls right for Britain, in his Churchillian way with his tin hat on as war great UK wartime leader, unlike any of the alternatives in the Tory party or elsewhere in Parliament would given half a chance... is quite rdiculous. That includes Britain and/or Europe and the g7 somehow providing Ukraine the needs to defeat Russia 'no matter what the cost is' whatever they might be, is of course complete nonsense.
Would be good if he provided Brits what they need to overcome our own problems caused by this war which are mounting alarmingly and daily for many. Especially the poorest.
Johnson is exactly the Prime Minister many of us thought he'd be, and said as much prior to his election. And now he apparently wants to stay until the mid 2030s.
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 32 minutes ago
I have my view known on Boris many times
.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know. So this came as a surprise.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 30 minutes ago
I don't think anyone was attacking you for your post, 52. You even brought up doing it for the wrong reasons at the start. I think we're mainly expanding on the topic, and if the language is a bit venomous, it's because many people absolutely loathe him for the ever greater depths he is dragging the British state down to.
The only thing I'd take issue with, as I said, is the idea that he has been the 'best' (or most steadfast) European leader in his support for Ukraine. Many of the countries neighbouring Russia and/or Ukraine have gone a lot further in matching words with actions, and been more morally / ideologically consistent and politically reliable than the UK. Not just because Johnson will only do what is politically expedient, but because for those countries the threat of Russian aggression is far more tangible, and within the living memory of their electorates.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True. Still it's nice to feel we are, at least, not letting them down.
Naturally we are letting the rufugees down, if anyone can be worse than Boris it's Patel.
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 30 minutes ago
I don't think anyone was attacking you for your post, 52. You even brought up doing it for the wrong reasons at the start. I think we're mainly expanding on the topic, and if the language is a bit venomous, it's because many people absolutely loathe him for the ever greater depths he is dragging the British state down to.
The only thing I'd take issue with, as I said, is the idea that he has been the 'best' (or most steadfast) European leader in his support for Ukraine. Many of the countries neighbouring Russia and/or Ukraine have gone a lot further in matching words with actions, and been more morally / ideologically consistent and politically reliable than the UK. Not just because Johnson will only do what is politically expedient, but because for those countries the threat of Russian aggression is far more tangible, and within the living memory of their electorates.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True. Still it's nice to feel we are, at least, not letting them down.
Naturally we are letting the rufugees down, if anyone can be worse than Boris it's Patel.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But as a right hon MP Patel is still credible. Boris isnt. Like her or not
There's more Putinite money laundered through the Greater London real estate market than anywhere else on the planet.
From entire High Street office blocks, to residential and commercial properties. Paid for in cash, and registered under the names of wives/kids/lovers of Russian nationals currently under sanction.
The Roman Abramovich affair was nothing more than a theatrical diversion. We could easily bring Putin and his minions to their knees if we really meant it.
But as a right hon MP Patel is still credible. Boris isnt. Like her or not
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Not quite sure what you mean by this but Patel is another compulsive liar, broke the ministerial code with the bullying treatment of her staff, and was sacked by May after it turned out she had secretly held unauthorised meetings with Israeli politicians while on holiday.
She has disgraced herself many times over from the point of view of the basic ethics of transparency, honesty, and behaviour, quite apart from her actual political views.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 22 minutes ago
But as a right hon MP Patel is still credible. Boris isnt. Like her or not
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Not quite sure what you mean by this but Patel is another compulsive liar, broke the ministerial code with the bullying treatment of her staff, and was sacked by May after it turned out she had secretly held unauthorised meetings with Israeli politicians while on holiday.
She has disgraced herself many times over from the point of view of the basic ethics of transparency, honesty, and behaviour, quite apart from her actual political views.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
She is a bad example to use and she probably has lied to parliament as you suggest. But she isnt a convicted criminal to my knowlege which makes her a more acceptable option than big dog.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 24 minutes ago
But as a right hon MP Patel is still credible. Boris isnt. Like her or not
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Not quite sure what you mean by this but Patel is another compulsive liar, broke the ministerial code with the bullying treatment of her staff, and was sacked by May after it turned out she had secretly held unauthorised meetings with Israeli politicians while on holiday.
She has disgraced herself many times over from the point of view of the basic ethics of transparency, honesty, and behaviour, quite apart from her actual political views.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Patel is probably one of the very very very few politicians even less credible than Johnson
What this country definitely needs is an En Marche equivalent party. A centrist part to split the chasm between the Tories and Labour and shake up the political landscape.
comment by Gillespie Road. (U18361)
posted 50 minutes ago
There's more Putinite money laundered through the Greater London real estate market than anywhere else on the planet.
From entire High Street office blocks, to residential and commercial properties. Paid for in cash, and registered under the names of wives/kids/lovers of Russian nationals currently under sanction.
The Roman Abramovich affair was nothing more than a theatrical diversion. We could easily bring Putin and his minions to their knees if we really meant it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't see how. Even if we sequestered them all it won't bring him to his knees. He's plenty of money at present.
comment by HEY, WE'RE BACK (U22866)
posted 13 hours, 9 minutes ago
The whole circus is total smokescreen
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nobody bitten on this yet?
comment by RB&W - What is it now, Ralf? (U21434)
posted 17 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 22 minutes ago
But as a right hon MP Patel is still credible. Boris isnt. Like her or not
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Not quite sure what you mean by this but Patel is another compulsive liar, broke the ministerial code with the bullying treatment of her staff, and was sacked by May after it turned out she had secretly held unauthorised meetings with Israeli politicians while on holiday.
She has disgraced herself many times over from the point of view of the basic ethics of transparency, honesty, and behaviour, quite apart from her actual political views.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
She is a bad example to use and she probably has lied to parliament as you suggest. But she isnt a convicted criminal to my knowlege which makes her a more acceptable option than big dog.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Johnson purged the most visible Tories who stood up to him because they believed in a conservatism grounded in evidential realities before the 2019 GE. He has promoted characters who are unscrupulous, dishonest and mediocre, therefore unlikely to threaten him (because few others would give them a job) or to oppose him on principle. And the vast majority of the parliamentary party (through a combination of intolerance of dissent and seeing the big majority Johnson gained) have gone along with it for years.
Incidentally, among this very Johnsonian dubious line-up, Patel, Truss, Raab and Kwarteng are four of the five authors of the infamous 'Britannia Unchained' manifesto, published in 2010. This is basically Thatcherism on steroids (or something United We Win would write on a politics thread here), crudely arguing that British workers are lazy and we need to slash regulation and wages so they aren't so pampered and rich investors can get better returns.
comment by Luke Combs - FJB (U3979)
posted 4 minutes ago
What this country definitely needs is an En Marche equivalent party. A centrist part to split the chasm between the Tories and Labour and shake up the political landscape.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What we need is proportional representation. Then new parties will appear enabling people to vote for precisely the policies they want, rather than holding their nose voting for a lesser evil.
comment by Luke Combs - FJB (U3979)
posted 13 minutes ago
What this country definitely needs is an En Marche equivalent party. A centrist part to split the chasm between the Tories and Labour and shake up the political landscape.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Lib Dems are the centrist party.
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Luke Combs - FJB (U3979)
posted 13 minutes ago
What this country definitely needs is an En Marche equivalent party. A centrist part to split the chasm between the Tories and Labour and shake up the political landscape.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Lib Dems are the centrist party.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately they are shiiiite as well
Absolute monarchy....
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 hours, 12 minutes ago
I see in his speech at the G7, Johnson talked about the value of international law in terms of the Ukraine crisis. On the same day, he encourages his party to vote to break it by backing out of the Brexit agreement.
I think that pretty much sums up how 'principled' he is.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
At the risk of sounding like I'm defending Johnson (I'm certainly not!), if we had a serious media landscape, the very notion that *any* PM in recent living memory was devoted to the value of international law would be met with hysterical laughter.
The buzz-term of the day is the so called "rules based international order", which in reality means; "we can do what we like, when we like, and where we like, but if you, a designated official enemy state, even remotely consider the same things, that's outside the scope of the 'rules-based international order' and you must suffer the consequences".
Johnson the individual may indeed be a more flawed, clownish, cartoonish and self-interested figure compared to his predecessors, but the fundamental strategic objectives of the British state & military apparatus remain largely unchanged.
comment by Luke Combs - FJB (U3979)
posted 26 minutes ago
What this country definitely needs is an En Marche equivalent party. A centrist part to split the chasm between the Tories and Labour and shake up the political landscape.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The very last thing this country needs is another bland, "business as usual" centrist party, which is exactly what you have in the Lib Dems & Sir Kier Starmer's version of the Labour Party.
We have a number of ongoing crises which desperately & urgently require major, drastic changes to our political & economic arrangements; non of which are on offer from the center, and maybe of which were actually initiated allowed to fester there.
Proportional representation is the way forward, for the reasons put forward by RR. But it isn't a guarantee of good government.
I don't know how we have reached this position where we are governed by Johnson, Patel, Raab, Truss et al.
It's incroyable.
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 4 minutes ago
Proportional representation is the way forward, for the reasons put forward by RR. But it isn't a guarantee of good government.
I don't know how we have reached this position where we are governed by Johnson, Patel, Raab, Truss et al.
It's incroyable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit. Brexit brought us to where we are now.
It empowered liars and cheats. That and people who say things like "all politicians are liars and cheats", somehow meaning we might as well have the worst liars and cheats available, in charge.
I'm not saying it is the fault of Brexit, but those that nobs would call the "political elite", put losers like Boris and Gove in charge of leaving the EU in the misapprehension that it would never happen. And here we are.
Who would have thought that polarising the electorate with populist guff would lead to a race to be bottom?
Sign in if you want to comment
Boris
Page 2 of 4
posted on 28/6/22
It wasn't meant to be a hand grenade or stir things up. I haven't done any research, but an article in one of the papers said he/we.had done more to help than Germany, France and others.
I completely accept he has done it to save his own skin.
But sometimes people can do the right thing for the wrong reason.
posted on 28/6/22
I have my view known on Boris many times
.
posted on 28/6/22
I don't think anyone was attacking you for your post, 52. You even brought up doing it for the wrong reasons at the start. I think we're mainly expanding on the topic, and if the language is a bit venomous, it's because many people absolutely loathe him for the ever greater depths he is dragging the British state down to.
The only thing I'd take issue with, as I said, is the idea that he has been the 'best' (or most steadfast) European leader in his support for Ukraine. Many of the countries neighbouring Russia and/or Ukraine have gone a lot further in matching words with actions, and been more morally / ideologically consistent and politically reliable than the UK. Not just because Johnson will only do what is politically expedient, but because for those countries the threat of Russian aggression is far more tangible, and within the living memory of their electorates.
posted on 28/6/22
The narrative from the front bench is that Boris might be a lying cheating criminal but at least he gets the big calls right for Britain, in his Churchillian way with his tin hat on as war great UK wartime leader, unlike any of the alternatives in the Tory party or elsewhere in Parliament would given half a chance... is quite rdiculous. That includes Britain and/or Europe and the g7 somehow providing Ukraine the needs to defeat Russia 'no matter what the cost is' whatever they might be, is of course complete nonsense.
Would be good if he provided Brits what they need to overcome our own problems caused by this war which are mounting alarmingly and daily for many. Especially the poorest.
posted on 28/6/22
Johnson is exactly the Prime Minister many of us thought he'd be, and said as much prior to his election. And now he apparently wants to stay until the mid 2030s.
posted on 28/6/22
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 32 minutes ago
I have my view known on Boris many times
.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know. So this came as a surprise.
posted on 28/6/22
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 30 minutes ago
I don't think anyone was attacking you for your post, 52. You even brought up doing it for the wrong reasons at the start. I think we're mainly expanding on the topic, and if the language is a bit venomous, it's because many people absolutely loathe him for the ever greater depths he is dragging the British state down to.
The only thing I'd take issue with, as I said, is the idea that he has been the 'best' (or most steadfast) European leader in his support for Ukraine. Many of the countries neighbouring Russia and/or Ukraine have gone a lot further in matching words with actions, and been more morally / ideologically consistent and politically reliable than the UK. Not just because Johnson will only do what is politically expedient, but because for those countries the threat of Russian aggression is far more tangible, and within the living memory of their electorates.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True. Still it's nice to feel we are, at least, not letting them down.
Naturally we are letting the rufugees down, if anyone can be worse than Boris it's Patel.
posted on 28/6/22
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 30 minutes ago
I don't think anyone was attacking you for your post, 52. You even brought up doing it for the wrong reasons at the start. I think we're mainly expanding on the topic, and if the language is a bit venomous, it's because many people absolutely loathe him for the ever greater depths he is dragging the British state down to.
The only thing I'd take issue with, as I said, is the idea that he has been the 'best' (or most steadfast) European leader in his support for Ukraine. Many of the countries neighbouring Russia and/or Ukraine have gone a lot further in matching words with actions, and been more morally / ideologically consistent and politically reliable than the UK. Not just because Johnson will only do what is politically expedient, but because for those countries the threat of Russian aggression is far more tangible, and within the living memory of their electorates.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True. Still it's nice to feel we are, at least, not letting them down.
Naturally we are letting the rufugees down, if anyone can be worse than Boris it's Patel.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But as a right hon MP Patel is still credible. Boris isnt. Like her or not
posted on 28/6/22
There's more Putinite money laundered through the Greater London real estate market than anywhere else on the planet.
From entire High Street office blocks, to residential and commercial properties. Paid for in cash, and registered under the names of wives/kids/lovers of Russian nationals currently under sanction.
The Roman Abramovich affair was nothing more than a theatrical diversion. We could easily bring Putin and his minions to their knees if we really meant it.
posted on 28/6/22
But as a right hon MP Patel is still credible. Boris isnt. Like her or not
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Not quite sure what you mean by this but Patel is another compulsive liar, broke the ministerial code with the bullying treatment of her staff, and was sacked by May after it turned out she had secretly held unauthorised meetings with Israeli politicians while on holiday.
She has disgraced herself many times over from the point of view of the basic ethics of transparency, honesty, and behaviour, quite apart from her actual political views.
posted on 28/6/22
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 22 minutes ago
But as a right hon MP Patel is still credible. Boris isnt. Like her or not
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Not quite sure what you mean by this but Patel is another compulsive liar, broke the ministerial code with the bullying treatment of her staff, and was sacked by May after it turned out she had secretly held unauthorised meetings with Israeli politicians while on holiday.
She has disgraced herself many times over from the point of view of the basic ethics of transparency, honesty, and behaviour, quite apart from her actual political views.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
She is a bad example to use and she probably has lied to parliament as you suggest. But she isnt a convicted criminal to my knowlege which makes her a more acceptable option than big dog.
posted on 28/6/22
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 24 minutes ago
But as a right hon MP Patel is still credible. Boris isnt. Like her or not
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Not quite sure what you mean by this but Patel is another compulsive liar, broke the ministerial code with the bullying treatment of her staff, and was sacked by May after it turned out she had secretly held unauthorised meetings with Israeli politicians while on holiday.
She has disgraced herself many times over from the point of view of the basic ethics of transparency, honesty, and behaviour, quite apart from her actual political views.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Patel is probably one of the very very very few politicians even less credible than Johnson
posted on 28/6/22
What this country definitely needs is an En Marche equivalent party. A centrist part to split the chasm between the Tories and Labour and shake up the political landscape.
posted on 28/6/22
comment by Gillespie Road. (U18361)
posted 50 minutes ago
There's more Putinite money laundered through the Greater London real estate market than anywhere else on the planet.
From entire High Street office blocks, to residential and commercial properties. Paid for in cash, and registered under the names of wives/kids/lovers of Russian nationals currently under sanction.
The Roman Abramovich affair was nothing more than a theatrical diversion. We could easily bring Putin and his minions to their knees if we really meant it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't see how. Even if we sequestered them all it won't bring him to his knees. He's plenty of money at present.
posted on 28/6/22
comment by HEY, WE'RE BACK (U22866)
posted 13 hours, 9 minutes ago
The whole circus is total smokescreen
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nobody bitten on this yet?
posted on 28/6/22
comment by RB&W - What is it now, Ralf? (U21434)
posted 17 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 22 minutes ago
But as a right hon MP Patel is still credible. Boris isnt. Like her or not
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Not quite sure what you mean by this but Patel is another compulsive liar, broke the ministerial code with the bullying treatment of her staff, and was sacked by May after it turned out she had secretly held unauthorised meetings with Israeli politicians while on holiday.
She has disgraced herself many times over from the point of view of the basic ethics of transparency, honesty, and behaviour, quite apart from her actual political views.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
She is a bad example to use and she probably has lied to parliament as you suggest. But she isnt a convicted criminal to my knowlege which makes her a more acceptable option than big dog.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Johnson purged the most visible Tories who stood up to him because they believed in a conservatism grounded in evidential realities before the 2019 GE. He has promoted characters who are unscrupulous, dishonest and mediocre, therefore unlikely to threaten him (because few others would give them a job) or to oppose him on principle. And the vast majority of the parliamentary party (through a combination of intolerance of dissent and seeing the big majority Johnson gained) have gone along with it for years.
Incidentally, among this very Johnsonian dubious line-up, Patel, Truss, Raab and Kwarteng are four of the five authors of the infamous 'Britannia Unchained' manifesto, published in 2010. This is basically Thatcherism on steroids (or something United We Win would write on a politics thread here), crudely arguing that British workers are lazy and we need to slash regulation and wages so they aren't so pampered and rich investors can get better returns.
posted on 28/6/22
comment by Luke Combs - FJB (U3979)
posted 4 minutes ago
What this country definitely needs is an En Marche equivalent party. A centrist part to split the chasm between the Tories and Labour and shake up the political landscape.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What we need is proportional representation. Then new parties will appear enabling people to vote for precisely the policies they want, rather than holding their nose voting for a lesser evil.
posted on 28/6/22
comment by Luke Combs - FJB (U3979)
posted 13 minutes ago
What this country definitely needs is an En Marche equivalent party. A centrist part to split the chasm between the Tories and Labour and shake up the political landscape.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Lib Dems are the centrist party.
posted on 28/6/22
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Luke Combs - FJB (U3979)
posted 13 minutes ago
What this country definitely needs is an En Marche equivalent party. A centrist part to split the chasm between the Tories and Labour and shake up the political landscape.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Lib Dems are the centrist party.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately they are shiiiite as well
Absolute monarchy....
posted on 28/6/22
Boris. Meh.
posted on 28/6/22
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 hours, 12 minutes ago
I see in his speech at the G7, Johnson talked about the value of international law in terms of the Ukraine crisis. On the same day, he encourages his party to vote to break it by backing out of the Brexit agreement.
I think that pretty much sums up how 'principled' he is.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
At the risk of sounding like I'm defending Johnson (I'm certainly not!), if we had a serious media landscape, the very notion that *any* PM in recent living memory was devoted to the value of international law would be met with hysterical laughter.
The buzz-term of the day is the so called "rules based international order", which in reality means; "we can do what we like, when we like, and where we like, but if you, a designated official enemy state, even remotely consider the same things, that's outside the scope of the 'rules-based international order' and you must suffer the consequences".
Johnson the individual may indeed be a more flawed, clownish, cartoonish and self-interested figure compared to his predecessors, but the fundamental strategic objectives of the British state & military apparatus remain largely unchanged.
posted on 28/6/22
comment by Luke Combs - FJB (U3979)
posted 26 minutes ago
What this country definitely needs is an En Marche equivalent party. A centrist part to split the chasm between the Tories and Labour and shake up the political landscape.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The very last thing this country needs is another bland, "business as usual" centrist party, which is exactly what you have in the Lib Dems & Sir Kier Starmer's version of the Labour Party.
We have a number of ongoing crises which desperately & urgently require major, drastic changes to our political & economic arrangements; non of which are on offer from the center, and maybe of which were actually initiated allowed to fester there.
posted on 28/6/22
Proportional representation is the way forward, for the reasons put forward by RR. But it isn't a guarantee of good government.
I don't know how we have reached this position where we are governed by Johnson, Patel, Raab, Truss et al.
It's incroyable.
posted on 28/6/22
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 4 minutes ago
Proportional representation is the way forward, for the reasons put forward by RR. But it isn't a guarantee of good government.
I don't know how we have reached this position where we are governed by Johnson, Patel, Raab, Truss et al.
It's incroyable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit. Brexit brought us to where we are now.
It empowered liars and cheats. That and people who say things like "all politicians are liars and cheats", somehow meaning we might as well have the worst liars and cheats available, in charge.
I'm not saying it is the fault of Brexit, but those that nobs would call the "political elite", put losers like Boris and Gove in charge of leaving the EU in the misapprehension that it would never happen. And here we are.
posted on 28/6/22
Who would have thought that polarising the electorate with populist guff would lead to a race to be bottom?
Page 2 of 4